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Paris

LutonSpurs said:
The problem here is that we do want to stop them but it's the same as wanting to stop the crazy old man who pushed a hijab clad women on to a train track yesterday. She survived and he has been charged with attempted murder but I do not expect white Londoners to protest against his actions because I don't believe he represents you. People have to stop believing Muslims are represented by ISIS. They are just vile people and we have as little ability to influence them as anyone. They do not care what the masses think bar that they want to go against the grain. Anarchists, nutters. My protest would mean nothing. If it could change them I would be out there. But I don't believe it matters. And I don't believe my community condemning them needs to be heard more than anyone else. It should be a given as is the fact that I don't believe anyone here thinks it's ok for the old man to try and kill that woman.
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Which is exactly my point.
ISIS operate in the name of Islam and Islam needs to stop that, to push back against that. And I know it is happening, but I don't think it's loud or effective enough.
My point is about minimising radicalism, which means finding means to reduce those that get radicalised.
Islam needs to make itself the alternative to rasicisation - rather than a message if " the west is evil, come join us at ISIS", be a vocal and powerful opposition to ISIS so their message is diluted.
Islam is the only one group that can offer that - Christianity, the west, atheism, capitalism etc cannot as there position is easy countered by ISIS claims.
I'm not saying this is Islams fault, that would ludicrous.
I am saying Islam can become part of the solution (reduction is radicalism).
Yes I don't think Islam can do more, but I'm not pointing the finger. Your original post talked about whose responsibility it is to try and stop them - its everyone's. But Islam has the best position to do so as I. They are carrying out terrorism falsely in the name of Islam and II. The tactics of the west have clearly not worked. (And in places quite the opposite)
 
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StephenH said:
Wow - this speaks volumes about the underlying problem with some in the Muslim community, it's all somebody elses problem thus fault!
Yeah coz that Saddam Hussain was such a good guy.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
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I don't think that's fair to Lutonspur - Iraq was a powerhungry president finishing off what his family started and that illegal invasion has been a catalyst for much since. (With other historical actions of course).
I'm not saying Iraq was a nice place, but when you take any action you have to understand the ramifications - the "allies" didn't do that re; Iraq and I think bush & Blair are war criminals.
 
Ultimately the time us Muslims here in the West to stand up and show we want to care is here. I am doing it right now. I have come on here to a community I belong on and condemned them. I want to stop them. How is what I have no idea about.

There's a few posts I will reply to later but am on phone now and out with famiky and I will later.

But I don't shun my responsibility as a human. I won't. My kids have to grow up here and I want them to be safe. There is no benefit in me blaming others but root causes are key in finding solutions. We all know this.

I hope the discussion can continue later
 
billyiddo said:
If i lived in a foreign land and there were people killing/attacking the host population in the name of my people, my frustration would be aimed at them and not at the indigenious people - now im not saying that you're not frustrated with the minority of extremists or are in anyway a sympathiser but from the outside looking in it comes across that the balance is wrong and the wider Muslim community in the west are directing their frustrations at us (the indigenous people/governments) rather than those within their communities which are the ones causing the troubles.
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I was born in the West. I am indigenous.
 
LutonSpurs said:
Ultimately the time us Muslims here in the West to stand up and show we want to care is here. I am doing it right now. I have come on here to a community I belong on and condemned them. I want to stop them. How is what I have no idea about.

There's a few posts I will reply to later but am on phone now and out with famiky and I will later.

But I don't shun my responsibility as a human. I won't. My kids have to grow up here and I want them to be safe. There is no benefit in me blaming others but root causes are key in finding solutions. We all know this.

I hope the discussion can continue later
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I look forward to the continued discussion.

I don't think anyone can fairly accuse you of shunning your responsibility.

I will only add, for now, that I'm not always sure "root causes" are always key. In history you can usually go back through the milennia and find faults on both (or all) sides of a conflict. But some of those potential root causes are now being ignored or overlooked. WW2 could obviously be a root cause for ongoing conflicts in central Europe, but it's not. Former Yugoslavia ended with wars and an attempted genocide, that was stopped by a military intevention by NATO. Now much of former Yugoslavia is a delightful tourist destination. And although conflicts still linger, they're nowhere near as intense as they could have been given the "root causes".

Sometimes it's not about root causes, it's about getting past the faults on both sides and moving on.

monkeybarry said:
I don't think that's fair to Lutonspur - Iraq was a powerhungry president finishing off what his family started and that illegal invasion has been a catalyst for much since. (With other historical actions of course).
I'm not saying Iraq was a nice place, but when you take any action you have to understand the ramifications - the "allies" didn't do that re; Iraq and I think bush & Blair are war criminals.
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Hussain was arguably as bad as Stalin and Hitler, though on a slightly smaller scale. His rule of that country has been a catalyst for much since.

I don't think the allies understood the ramifications fully either, I don't think the plan was well enough thought out. But "their" (not actually the same people) biggest mistake was not completing the job and getting rid of Saddam during the war in '91 and letting Iraq suffer under Saddam for an additional decade+. After he had showns himself well and truly as the monster he was.

Do you think the ramifications of leaving Saddam in charge of Iraq are well understood? Do you think the outcomes of what would have happened in Iraq post-Saddam given him staying in power until he passed naturally are well understood?
 
Just a general reply to those that say muslims should be doing more... @StephenH @monkeybarry @braineclipse

I would ask what more? Im not saying muslims shouldnt do more im asking what more should they do because:

They have protested Isis
They offer intelligence to the police about potential radicals* (more on this later)
They have quoted scriptures that plainly show that isis is distorting their religion
They get on social media to condemn the attacks
They get on national media (when they have the chance) and condemn the attacks
They offer condolences to victims
They are on the ground fighting isis now!
They are being murdered by isis in their tens of thousands.
Jordon, Saudi, Turkey, Quatar Egypt and others have been involved in anti ISIS airstrikes

So ideas please about what they should do that they are not doing now.

* my friend, an english guy blue eyes blond hair, a posh accent used to work for the police intelligence (kind of) he used to get intelligence from in and arounds mosques about potential radicalisation. When he told me what he used to do, i asked him half joking "what did you do grow a beard and pretend to be a convert" his answer was 'dont be a d##k, they knew who i was and what i was there to do and wanted to help when they could"

Where do you think that most of the intelligence to prevent attacks comes from its not james bond doing it. Its from within the muslim community its self.
 
Reports that security stopped one of the attackers outside the ground lastnight and didnt let him in, imagine the carnage if he hadve got in
 
braineclipse said:
You're advocating a military intervention in Syria. Won't that help ISIS recruitment? I believe it's because you believe the benefit outweighs the cost, no?

You agree that scriptures/religion is a recruitment tool for them. I guess you're not saying that scriptures on a whole are a bad thing? I believe it's because you think the benefit outweighs the cost?

If you see a trend here I think perhaps you're on to why I think insulting and even divisive statementns and opinions are valuable... Even if they are an alleged recruitment tool. I really think that much should have been clear from my previous post if it was read even with a moderate amount of good will. I didn't miss your point at all, I explicitly responded to it.

There is basically not a single criticism of religion that will not cause offense to some religious people. The same is true about expressions of other religions by the way. What does or doesn't offend the extremists continues to be a horrible way to choose what or how one expresses oneself.
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Offend the extremists all you want, hell i will join in with you. What im saying is dont offend those that are not extreme and give the extremists more ammunition to recruit with.

In terms of costs and benifits... we identified potential costs here (increasing the ability of the extremists to recruit) but i fail to see the tangible benifits of what you propose... so enlighten me please.
 
A Syrian passport was found next to the body of one of three suicide bombers who struck near the Stade de France stadium during the game.

A Greek minister says the passport belonged to a Syrian refugee who passed through the island of Leros. An Egyptian passport has also been linked to the attacks.

Meanwhile, UK official sources have told the BBC they believe a Syrian cell, recently returned to France, was behind the attacks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34820016

Very concerning people moving around and the security services not able to keep track of them all.
 
DTA said:
Offend the extremists all you want, hell i will join in with you. What im saying is dont offend those that are not extreme and give the extremists more ammunition to recruit with.

In terms of costs and benifits... we identified potential costs here (increasing the ability of the extremists to recruit) but i fail to see the tangible benifits of what you propose... so enlighten me please.
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I disagree with you very strongly. We should be able and allowed to offend people if they believe in make believe rubbish whether it is the weirdos that speak the star trek talk or people who believe in religion. I never actually say anything about Islam as I do not know its traditions. But I will take the tinkle out of Catholics till the end of my days as that was the religion I grew up in thanks to an unhinged mother.

We keep hearing how we should not change our way of life, I agree with this. It should include the ridicule of people that deserve it, so over paid crap footballers, incompetent civil servants, lying politicians and people that believe a guy on a cloud created the world.
 
DTA said:
Just a general reply to those that say muslims should be doing more... @StephenH @monkeybarry @braineclipse

I would ask what more? Im not saying muslims shouldnt do more im asking what more should they do because:

They have protested Isis
They offer intelligence to the police about potential radicals* (more on this later)
They have quoted scriptures that plainly show that isis is distorting their religion
They get on social media to condemn the attacks
They get on national media (when they have the chance) and condemn the attacks
They offer condolences to victims
They are on the ground fighting isis now!
They are being murdered by isis in their tens of thousands.
Jordon, Saudi, Turkey, Quatar Egypt and others have been involved in anti ISIS airstrikes

So ideas please about what they should do that they are not doing now.

* my friend, an english guy blue eyes blond hair, a posh accent used to work for the police intelligence (kind of) he used to get intelligence from in and arounds mosques about potential radicalisation. When he told me what he used to do, i asked him half joking "what did you do grow a beard and pretend to be a convert" his answer was 'dont be a d##k, they knew who i was and what i was there to do and wanted to help when they could"

Where do you think that most of the intelligence to prevent attacks comes from its not james bond doing it. Its from within the muslim community its self.
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(I hate the answer I am about to give and I'd call someone out if they gave it)

I don't know.


.......


I feel there is further and greater influence that can be had from a vocal, fervently vocal, regularly vocal Muslim community promoting Islam and vilifying ISIS.
People in today's society are so influenced by media and social feeling we need make Islam a positive alternative for an angry/ disenfranchised person. And I want to see Islam take the lead on that.
 
as with most things, the answer is money, these actions are expensive to pull off

that money comes from somewhere, a lot of it is from other sustainable illegal activity, but a significant portion comes from private donations, we need to do more to stem the flow of funds

re: recruitment, I think it's past the point of our political actions being a factor, people are recruited based on lies, no one decides to join ISIS after watching the evening news, they get turned by friends and relatives abusing their trust to subvert the lesser educated
 
markysimmo said:
Reports that security stopped one of the attackers outside the ground lastnight and didnt let him in, imagine the carnage if he hadve got in
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crazy (and worrying) if true, they raised enough flags to not be allowed in but security just sent them away?
 
DTA said:
Where do you think that most of the intelligence to prevent attacks comes from
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More often than not it comes from the money trail.

Sauce: The guy who follows that trail, a friend of mine for over 20 years.
 
galeforce said:
as with most things, the answer is money, these actions are expensive to pull off

that money comes from somewhere, a lot of it is from other sustainable illegal activity, but a significant portion comes from private donations, we need to do more to stem the flow of funds

re: recruitment, I think it's past the point of our political actions being a factor, people are recruited based on lies, no one decides to join ISIS after watching the evening news, they get turned by friends and relatives abusing their trust to subvert the lesser educated
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Sorry, made the post above before reading this. Agree completely
 
monkeybarry said:
I don't think that's fair to Lutonspur - Iraq was a powerhungry president finishing off what his family started and that illegal invasion has been a catalyst for much since. (With other historical actions of course).
I'm not saying Iraq was a nice place, but when you take any action you have to understand the ramifications - the "allies" didn't do that re; Iraq and I think bush & Blair are war criminals.
Click to expand...

Sorry don't agreed - if this type of thinking is behind last nights cowardice butchery then there is little hope.
 
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