• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Paris

"Well, when the issue came up of the*Danish cartoons*[of Muhammad] I observed that the test I apply to something to see whether it truly is satire derives from H. L. Mencken's definition of good journalism: It should 'afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted.' The trouble with a lot of so-called 'satire' directed against religiously motivated extremists is that it's not clear who it's afflicting, or who it's comforting. This is in no way to condone the shooting of the journalists, which is evil, pure and simple, but our society makes a fetish of 'the right to free speech' without ever questioning what sort of responsibilities are implied by this right."*

I await the inevitable 'bourgeois leftie' dismissals from the usual lot on here :). I myself, do on occasion find Mr Self's proclamations to be rather self-indulgent, I do think he has made a very astute and pertinent observation here. And nicely expressed as ever.

We 've become so obsessed with this notion that out freedoms are under imminent threat, hanging perilously by a thread, and must therefore be actively and aggressively 'protected' , that we appear to have lost sight of what is that makes freedom of expression so precious in the first place, not to mention the true meaning of satire.
 
AuroRaman said:
Try not to let it bother you. I feel some just have a general chip on their shoulder regarding your religion and others just have a very blinkered view based on what is fed to them, which is rather ironic considering what they are posting. Considering what has been posted about something that is clearly an important part of your make-up and values, you have as ever posted in a dignified manner. Agreed about that scamp Scara as well!
Click to expand...
Seconded and well said. I'm an atheist but I really respect Luton's postings in this thread and find his perspective very interesting. You're a **** hot poster mate and you really bring something to this board.
 
milo said:
Seconded and well said. I'm an atheist but I really respect Luton's postings in this thread and find his perspective very interesting. You're a **** hot poster mate and you really bring something to this board.
Click to expand...
Thank you Milo. That means alot. Of course it is people like yourself and Aura amongst others who help people like myself convey my side without getting battered by the militant new atheist phalanx.
 
LutonSpurs said:
Thank you Milo. That means alot. Of course it is people like yourself and Aura amongst others who help people like myself convey my side without getting battered by the militant new atheist phalanx.
Click to expand...

I think that it is important that moderate atheists like myself condemn the actions of extremists like Scara ;)
 
I have been writing a lot about this situation since it happened. My single biggest (and repeated) statement was that we should refer to these attacks as the work of extremists, of thugs, but absolutely NOT tether them to Islam or the millions upon millions of Muslims who are equally appalled. I think most Muslims are feeling caught between a rock and a hard place. Extremists thug their way into communities and threaten from within, the twitter generation disperses notions that this is 'all Muslims' are about.
It's so divisive, polarizing and dangerous.
The single biggest way I think of that we could ALL hurt these extremists, is to refuse to acknowledge that their actions are in ANY perverse interpretation 'faith based'. Rather that they are simply vile criminal acts.
We need to stand shoulder to shoulder with ALL normal people of ALL faiths and condemn these extremist acts. ALL people of ALL faiths. This is vital.

On another note, i hope all communities realize the importance of making sure the young are not dragged into radicalization.

On a final note, I, too, would like to add my praise of Luton Spurs, not just here but in all his posts. One of my very favorite posters. Thanks mate.
 
LutonSpurs said:
I am a Muslim who believes and prays (I do generally live a very secular life though) and I condemned the attack early in this thread. Not sure why my condemnation is worth anything more than anyone else but it is there if it makes you feel better.

Also I would love to see a debate on the blurry lines on where freedom of speech stops in relation to xenophobia or racism or other sensitive issues. Absolute freedom of speech does not exist, we all agree on that, no where in the world. Because we have the right to be offended. The lines aren't clear to me.

But it is very important for me to say that while I found Charlie Ebdo to a be horrible publication I do not think they deserved to be harmed at all. I think they needed to be debated on the boundaries they pushed with some of their cartoons (I am not even talking about the anti islam ones) but not harmed.
Click to expand...

A very fair and very democratic response mate.
This is what 'freedom' should be about, the right to disagree and the right to debate. Personally, I found the cartoons generally not very funny at all, in fact rather tired. But as you rightly say, Charlie Ebdo contributors did not deserve to be harmed whatsoever. iI absolutely infuriated me ,for a couple of deeply personal reasons, that an editorial office was wiped out of existence by machine guns because someone 'took offense'. Frankly, anyone feeling the potential to be offended yet choosing to live in France where this publication is from should not have looked at the edition.There are plenty of places one can choose to live where a publication of that nature would never leave a printing press. If one chooses to remain in a country/society where that type of expression can occur, then you register your disapproval non-violently, as you mentioned you do mate.






BTW folks, the VIZ comic yesterday on Al Quaida and curtains? Brilliant!
 
Everyday or week this happens in Egypt yet not a single word... a travesty I know but a travesty across the entire world. Of course what happens in places like Egypt is a religious issue and not related to the Hebdo incident.

I really despise the fundamentalists, in ALL walks of life, and not just limited to muslims but ive experienced far more Islamic extremists in Egypt than anywhere else. There are alot of good muslims out there but there are sooooooooooooooooooooooooo many more ****ty clamish ones.
 
DHSF said:
Everyday or week this happens in Egypt yet not a single word... a travesty I know but a travesty across the entire world. Of course what happens in places like Egypt is a religious issue and not related to the Hebdo incident.

I really despise the fundamentalists, in ALL walks of life, and not just limited to muslims but ive experienced far more Islamic extremists in Egypt than anywhere else. There are alot of good muslims out there but there are sooooooooooooooooooooooooo many more ****ty clamish ones.
Click to expand...

Yes mate atrocities are carried out every day in "Muslim" countries as bad as the Paris attacks. I was born in Yemen during the civil war and even back then in the 80s the Taliban were killing people every day. They were on the route to world-wide Jihad back then. As immigration of Muslims to Europe and other Western nations has increased its brought the problem to these nations on a smaller but growing scale.
 
DHSF said:
Everyday or week this happens in Egypt yet not a single word... a travesty I know but a travesty across the entire world. Of course what happens in places like Egypt is a religious issue and not related to the Hebdo incident.

I really despise the fundamentalists, in ALL walks of life, and not just limited to muslims but ive experienced far more Islamic extremists in Egypt than anywhere else. There are alot of good muslims out there but there are sooooooooooooooooooooooooo many more ****ty clamish ones.
Click to expand...

My friend, you are of course entitled to take whatever worldview you so choose. But I am genuinely taken aback by the final sentence in your above post. I would suggest that such ignorance and negative generalisations are every bit as divisive and dangerous as religious extremism.
 
ShelfLife said:
My friend, you are of course entitled to take whatever worldview you so choose. But I am genuinely taken aback by the final sentence in your above post. I would suggest that such ignorance and negative generalisations are every bit as divisive and dangerous as religious extremism.
Click to expand...

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure DHSF is of Egyptian descent.
 
I haven’t read the whole thread but i am going to offer a slightly different view....

A lot of people go on about freedom of speech and now ‘je suis charlie’ etc but political correctness has been stifling such freedom for many years. Who was responsible for that?
In the main it was liberal minded, ‘new Labour’ types who said you can’t say certain innocent things that were never ever intended to cause offence.. A lot of those people are now politicians and journalists within the press and the BBC, who exert huge public influence.

So, an a day when free speech is held up as being so important I found it somewhat hypocritical that Gordon Taylor, Chairman - sorry ‘chairperson’ - of the Professional Footballers Association (PFA) was criticised and facing calls for his resignation after he dared to mention Hillsborough and Ched Evans in the same breath. Mr Taylor strikes me as a reasonable chap and he certainly wasn’t trying to upset anyone. He was just offering an opinion on football related issues in a sensitive manner but a lot of the people who slate him will also be the same people (such as those mentioned above) who say how important free speech is and how the Paris attacks were a strike at democracy.

I obviously find what happened in Paris abhorrent but I just cannot see how free speech should allow journalists to deliberately upset Muslims by mocking the prophet Mohammed and yet if other people were to draw such a cartoon and distribute it at work they would probably face some level of discipline.

I heard a French history Professor on the news state that ‘Democracy’ – which obviously goes hand in hand with freedom of speech - is all about restraining the power of the state and organisations and that includes the press. In the light of these horrific incidents, is it democratic for publications just be able to do what they want to do in order to sell a few magazines - thereby putting innocent people at risk - whilst stricter rules are imposed upon general society?
 
NLS said:
I haven’t read the whole thread but i am going to offer a slightly different view....

A lot of people go on about freedom of speech and now ‘je suis charlie’ etc but political correctness has been stifling such freedom for many years. Who was responsible for that?
In the main it was liberal minded, ‘new Labour’ types who said you can’t say certain innocent things that were never ever intended to cause offence.. A lot of those people are now politicians and journalists within the press and the BBC, who exert huge public influence.

So, an a day when free speech is held up as being so important I found it somewhat hypocritical that Gordon Taylor, Chairman - sorry ‘chairperson’ - of the Professional Footballers Association (PFA) was criticised and facing calls for his resignation after he dared to mention Hillsborough and Ched Evans in the same breath. Mr Taylor strikes me as a reasonable chap and he certainly wasn’t trying to upset anyone. He was just offering an opinion on football related issues in a sensitive manner but a lot of the people who slate him will also be the same people (such as those mentioned above) who say how important free speech is and how the Paris attacks were a strike at democracy.

I obviously find what happened in Paris abhorrent but I just cannot see how free speech should allow journalists to deliberately upset Muslims by mocking the prophet Mohammed and yet if other people were to draw such a cartoon and distribute it at work they would probably face some level of discipline.

I heard a French history Professor on the news state that ‘Democracy’ – which obviously goes hand in hand with freedom of speech - is all about restraining the power of the state and organisations and that includes the press. In the light of these horrific incidents, is it democratic for publications just be able to do what they want to do in order to sell a few magazines - thereby putting innocent people at risk - whilst stricter rules are imposed upon general society?
Click to expand...

People put innocent people at risk by drawing a cartoon? What. The. Actual. F#!*. You, my friend, have so beautifully summed up the current issues facing everyone. You have just, without intent, justified and allowed, tolerated, the extreme and disproportionate actions of the terrorists.

Freedom of speech also means freedom to speak back, shout down and criticise and complain and be offended. Or ignore a publicatuon. If you don't like something offensive, you have a whole load of rights and options.

I find loads of stuff offensive. Everyone gets offended by different things. People are different. If the press, TV, government and everyone wasn't free to offend people there would be no TV, no press, no anything.

There is no justification for what happened and nothing should change in terms of the press or ability to print, draw or comment what you like, obviously within reason.

Je suis Charlie
 
ShelfLife said:
My friend, you are of course entitled to take whatever worldview you so choose. But I am genuinely taken aback by the final sentence in your above post. I would suggest that such ignorance and negative generalisations are every bit as divisive and dangerous as religious extremism.
Click to expand...

Not when you have experienced it or suffered from it in your life... or family suffered... or relatives suffered...

Im sure you may only read whats in the papers and media e.g. Paris but there is a whole load more that goes unreported...

ps - You seem to have forgotten the earlier part of that sentence where ive mentioned there are good ones... same as any religion in all honesty
 
I have not justified their actions as they are indefensible....

I have simply asked the question is it ok for journalists to print something deliberately offensive to many millions of people without any legal restraint when most of us have to be so careful about what we say everyday...

And what annoys me is the hypocracy of the 'liberal lefties' who support other fellow minded free thinkers but seek to control working class people like me.... Before you say it...the attacks annoyed me much, much more...


NWND said:
People put innocent people at risk by drawing a cartoon? What. The. Actual. F#!*. You, my friend, have so beautifully summed up the current issues facing everyone. You have just, without intent, justified and allowed, tolerated, the extreme and disproportionate actions of the terrorists.

Freedom of speech also means freedom to speak back, shout down and criticise and complain and be offended. Or ignore a publicatuon. If you don't like something offensive, you have a whole load of rights and options.

I find loads of stuff offensive. Everyone gets offended by different things. People are different. If the press, TV, government and everyone wasn't free to offend people there would be no TV, no press, no anything.

There is no justification for what happened and nothing should change in terms of the press or ability to print, draw or comment what you like, obviously within reason.

Je suis Charlie
Click to expand...
 
Further to above.....

If the cartoons were printed by the BNP they would rightly be dismissed as 'evil racism' by the free thinking liberal 'elite' but because they are done by the sort of people they were smoking copious amounts of dope at University with it is somehow protecting free speech..... I just can't see it

Je suis Spurs...by the way.
 
Last edited:
How do we even go about surrendering to terror?

There is no mechanism for them to win or lose.

What is it all about does anyone know, the violence just seems to be an expression of faith.

Its rather intractable.

Coys.
 
NLS said:
I have not justified their actions as they are indefensible....

I have simply asked the question is it ok for journalists to print something deliberately offensive to many millions of people without any legal restraint when most of us have to be so careful about what we say everyday...

And what annoys me is the hypocracy of the 'liberal lefties' who support other fellow minded free thinkers but seek to control working class people like me.... Before you say it...the attacks annoyed me much, much more...
Click to expand...

I think that you have to recognise that French attitudes to this are very different to some other countries. This is the birth place of Voltaire and there is a long tradition of insulting religion there. I think that it is unlikely that a British or American publication would have printed something similar.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back