Paris

[AuroRaman]

I don't think DTA is even saying he 'understands' why they did it? Was it not in regard to Milo's Voltaire reference?

 

[DTA]

You seem to be trying to justify the murders in Paris. That's the tone I am getting here. What atrocities have the French committed recently? The past is the past. Europe was a very different place during the colonial era and before. There is no justification for anything that happened in Paris. None. None, whatsoever. At all. There is no argument that "because X did Y back in the day, then its ok to do Z now". Absolute horse-doop. Total cr**. It's feeding the mindset of the jihadist, who still refer to the fr*88in Crusades 100s of years ago to justify their actions.

What is difficult to understand about my posts? What i wrote was in reference to one of milos post about French cultural history, and I was giving another aspect of French cultural history, with specific reference to Charlie Hebdos images, and the the affect it may have with some Algerians

The French genocide in Algeria was not 100s of years ago by the way, does everyone here just talk out of their ****? Without having even the first clue about what they are talking about, or the smallest inclination to do even the smallest of fact checks?

Accusing me of in anyway justifying the terrorist is ****ing hilarious, I'm using my right to free speech to offer counter perspectives and some (what seem like) much needed education on certain subjects, yet I'm accused of that???? Seriously what the ****??? is that what you mean by free speech? does it only apply to the right to make racist images of Muslims?

Draw a black African Muslim in an overtly provocative and racist way= free speech

Talk of some of the social economic historical contexts to a present day problem= supporting terrorists.

For your next trick will you be burning any books?

 

[DTA]

I don't think DTA is even saying he 'understands' why they did it? Was it not in regard to Milo's Voltaire reference?

Thank you! I was begining to think I was writing in some funky language that nobody understood.

 

[scaramanga]

Did you actually read what wrote... Because you are not even trying to counter the point that i made explicit, in my, Simple explanation over two posts. Go back and read it, and let's deal with that, rather than you going off in to tangents, meant as a distractions from my exposing of your lack of knowledge you are displaying here.


When you done with that, read up on what the definition of genocide is, then read up on what the French did in Algeria and then try to explain how the two in your mind don't fit.

I'll do that for him if you like.

The two don't fit because genocide is, well, genocide. What you refer to as "The Algerian genocide" (the rest of the world just calls it The Algerian War BTW) is not. It's really that simple.

Your use of intentionally emotive and inaccurate language does nothing to further your cause and only makes others think of the religious as more unhinged than we already did.

 

[DTA]

I'll do that for him if you like.

The two don't fit because genocide is, well, genocide. What you refer to as "The Algerian genocide" (the rest of the world just calls it The Algerian War BTW) is not. It's really that simple.

Your use of intentionally emotive and inaccurate language does nothing to further your cause and only makes others think of the religious as more unhinged than we already did.

You done nothing of the sort, if you are going to talk for someone at least do it well.

Now go away look up the definition of genocide . then go and do a bit of reading on what the French did in Algeria. And come and try to explain how the two do not fit.

Then maybe we can have a grown up discussion.

 

[scaramanga]

Everyday or week this happens in Egypt yet not a single word... a travesty I know but a travesty across the entire world. Of course what happens in places like Egypt is a religious issue and not related to the Hebdo incident.

I really despise the fundamentalists, in ALL walks of life, and not just limited to muslims but ive experienced far more Islamic extremists in Egypt than anywhere else. There are alot of good muslims out there but there are sooooooooooooooooooooooooo many more ****ty clamish ones.

I seem to remember that we had a discussion aaaages ago at the start of the revolution about the future for Egypt.

Having just heard a fairly long podcast on it I was pessimistic about Egypt's ability to come out of the revolution under anything other than a military dictatorship or a nutjob theocracy. You were understandably hopeful at the time that democracy was going to find a way through.

Seeing as you have a better inside track than any of the journalists I read, WTF happened? How did Something so hopeful and positive end up with such a bad result?

EDIT:
Just realised that the above post might sound like I'm calling you out as wrong - please don't think that's the case. I just want your perspective on how such high hopes ended up with what you have now.

 

[scaramanga]

You done nothing of the sort, if you are going to talk for someone at least do it well.

Now go away look up the definition of genocide . then go and do a bit of reading on what the French did in Algeria. And come and try to explain how the two do not fit.

Then maybe we can have a grown up discussion.

:ross:

I've done both. Genocide has to come from an intent to wipe out a race or a group of people.

The Algerian War was a war. You may as well call my left shoe genocide.

 

[scaramanga]

Seriously shocked by some of the ideas about Islam and it's history by some on here. I can't debate it as I don't have the energy but some of it is so inaccurate it is making me cringe.

I prefer Scara in the sense that he just thinks it's all made up and he doesn't pretend to be an expert on the history.

Don't get me wrong, I know my history and I fully expect we would disagree if we discussed it.

I just don't see it as relevant.

 

[DTA]

:ross:

I've done both. Genocide has to come from an intent to wipe out a race or a group of people.

The Algerian War was a war. You may as well call my left shoe genocide.

You have done neither, but I will help you out with half the work

Go and get a quoted definition from a respected source of what defines a genocide, one that you are comfortable with, and I will provide you with facts about what the French did in Algeria and how it matches your definition.... By the way this has before by greater minds than you or I and the results are always the same.

 

[DTA]

:ross:

I've done both. Genocide has to come from an intent to wipe out a race or a group of people.

The Algerian War was a war. You may as well call my left shoe genocide.

BTW that's some fox news quality replying by the way.

 

[AuroRaman]

Don't get me wrong, I know my history and I fully expect we would disagree if we discussed it.

I just don't see it as relevant.

Heathen

 

[scaramanga]

You have done neither, but I will help you out with half the work

Go and get a quoted definition from a respected source of what defines a genocide, one that you are comfortable with, and I will provide you with facts about what the French did in Algeria and how it matches your definition.... By the way this has before by greater minds than you or I and the results are always the same.

We'll take the UN's definition shall we?

...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

And you'll need to find some neutral sources referring to this as genocide - not the Turkish Times or Admiral Ackbar Weekly.

 

[scaramanga]

Heathen

Made up **** was just as made up and just as **** a thousand years ago as it is now

 

[AuroRaman]

Made up **** was just as made up and just as **** a thousand years ago as it is now

 

[DTA]

We'll take the UN's definition shall we?



And you'll need to find some neutral sources referring to this as genocide - not the Turkish Times or Admiral Ackbar Weekly.

What's wrong with the Turkish times? And admiral Ackbar weekly is a fine publication, or... They are both made up like the facts on Fox News, or some of your other posts.


Legal definition of genocide according to the un:

Please Note: where it says a) any of the following acts
B) in whole or in part

C)ethnical, racial or religious group

Genocide is defined in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) as

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

killing members of the group;

1.5 million Algerians died

But just one incident :

Algeria first became a colony of France in 1830. When in 1954 the Algerian people rioted against the French colonial rule, the French dispatched 400,000 troops to pacify the anti-colonial uprising.[7] The French colonial forces launched an air and ground offensive against several eastern cities, particularly Setif and Guelma, in response to anti-French riots. The crackdown lasted several days and according to the Algerian state left 45,000 people dead YouTube Video - "Algerian Genocide by France" European historians put the figure at between 15,000 and 20,000.[8] French attacks continued not only in Algerian territories but in France as well. The Paris massacre of 1961 was the most vivid example: On October 17 the French police attacked an unarmed demonstration of Algerians, who demanded the freedom of their country from French colonial rule. How many demonstrators were killed is still unclear, but estimates range from 32 to 200 people. The incident had not been officially confirmed until 1999.[9][10] The Algerian newspaper Liberté was seized by the Police on 19 October 1998, presumably in connection of an article about these events.[11]

Settlers set up their own unofficial death squads and killed hundreds of Muslims. German and Italian prisoners of war were released to take part in the massacre"

causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

Cultural pressure was applied with the intention of eliminating Muslim and Arab identities. Attempts were made to replace Arabic and Berber -the official languages of Algeria-with French. Religious pressure was applied with the intention of replacing Islam with Christianity via an increase in Christian missionary activities. Land belonging to tribes who were deemed ‘anti-occupation’, was confiscated in a bid to apply economic pressures and non-transferable properties belonging to foundations that were set up to serve the society were seized. Europeans migrants were also settled into colonial settlements in the country's most beautiful regions. In order to encourage such migration, land was seized from native tribes and distributed, without cost, to European migrants.

deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part ;

In memoirs, some French officers have described torture of Algerians during the war. Edouard Sablier, for instance, one of the soldiers who took part in the repression, later described the situation: "Everywhere in the towns there were camps surrounded by barbed wire containing hundreds of suspects who had been arrested… Often, when we set out to inspect an isolated hamlet in the mountains, I heard people say, 'We should punish them by taking away their crops'."[4] A paper called Ohé Partisans, published by the French Trotskyists, described Sétif as an “Algerian Oradour”. Oradour was a French town where the Nazi occupiers had murdered over 600 people, including children

..
]

imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and]

forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."


There is more that I could find to match every single of the above, but like your source stated, only one needs to match

 

[scaramanga]

What's wrong with the Turkish times? And admiral Ackbar weekly is a fine publication, or... They are both made up like the facts on Fox News, or some of your other posts.


Legal definition of genocide according to the un:

Please Note: where it says a) any of the following acts
B) in whole or in part

C)ethnical, racial or religious group

Genocide is defined in Article 2 of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (1948) as

"any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

killing members of the group;

1.5 million Algerians died

But just one incident :





causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;




deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part ;

..
]

imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and]

forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."


There is more that I could find to match every single of the above, but like your source stated, only one needs to match

Can I have some sauce on that please?

 

[DTA]

Can I have some sauce on that please?

All from different publication what part do you want a source on? There is a lot written on this from various scholars. But my time is short so be specific.

 

[scaramanga]

All from different publication what part do you want a source on? There is a lot written on this from various scholars. But my time is short so be specific.

:ross: OK, let me rephrase that.

If you're going to make an assertion (that the Algerian War was genocide), especially one that is at odds with the general public perception, you'll need to back it up with sourced comments. The weight of evidence is on you. In general, it's just polite behaviour on the internet to link or attribute sources as it saves all that nasty asking for proof all the time.

For all I know, you wrote the above until you prove otherwise. All you need to do is find an unbiased source stating that genocide occurred (or describing events that a neutral would agree fit the criteria) and post it here with a link or an attribution. Ideally it will be something available openly on the inter.net as I can't imagine any of us going to a library to dig up a 50 year old book on a war that isn't even relevant to the discussion at hand (except in the eyes of a couple of mentals and their AK-47s). If you are digging the information out of a physical book then a photo/scan would do.

 

[scaramanga]

As an interesting side note, for some reason I was unsure of the term weight of evidence. You know when you say something often enough it loses meaning in your head and you start to doubt it's even a real phrase or word?

So I googled it and one of the results was this:
http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_obesity#Skepchick_writers_who_have_excess_weight_challenges

What the actual ****? If you ever needed a perfect example of what religion does to the mind, this is it!

 

[DTA]

:ross: OK, let me rephrase that.

If you're going to make an assertion (that the Algerian War was genocide), especially one that is at odds with the general public perception, you'll need to back it up with sourced comments. The weight of evidence is on you. In general, it's just polite behaviour on the internet to link or attribute sources as it saves all that nasty asking for proof all the time.

For all I know, you wrote the above until you prove otherwise. All you need to do is find an unbiased source stating that genocide occurred (or describing events that a neutral would agree fit the criteria) and post it here with a link or an attribution. Ideally it will be something available openly on the inter.net as I can't imagine any of us going to a library to dig up a 50 year old book on a war that isn't even relevant to the discussion at hand (except in the eyes of a couple of mentals and their AK-47s). If you are digging the information out of a physical book then a photo/scan would do.

A) it is you that is going off in to a tangent, I was only talking about a part of French cultural history, in response to a specific post made by Milo about another part of French cultural history. I made reference to the Algerian genocide (firstly stating that 'some people call it the Algerian genocide' specifically because I know there is great sensitivity around that word, and so there should be.

You and bonsai are the ones countering the fact whether it was a genocide or not... I'm more than happy to get back on topic... Feel free to admit your wrong.

So in conclusion yours and bonsais tangent not mine.

B) if all or the salient points can be accredited to a source that you accept would what happened in Algeria Constitute a genocide.... Then we can get to references,

The reason I'm doing this because you have a habit of moving the goal posts mid debate, and at present I can only spend so much time on your education

Alternative ly you can stop trying to deflect attention away from my original post and have a go at countering it.... Or maybe even agreeing.