Paxtonloudmouth
Michael Brown
What about the worship of the market ?
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Paris
- Thread starter Danishfurniturelover
- Start date
What about the worship of the market ?
milo
Jack L. Jones
No, but we're honest about and we're free to discuss the historical Jesus verses the figure created by St Paul and gospel writers.
Scholars in Islamic countries are not free to do so about Mohammed and even in the Western World have to skirt around a lot of the issues. You won't find any archaeological digs going on in Mecca, and they're actively destroying anything that supposedly dates from Moihammed's time so it can be proven that it doesn't at all actually. Mecca itself is perfection. It wasn't a great site of importance during Mohammed's time, and the evidence is that Islam started out as a Jewish/Christian sect and the early Muslims prayed towards Jerusalem.
But later on they decided they needed their own holy city, so chose Mecca because of a passing reference to it in the Quran - the holiest site of Islam has nothing more than passing reference to it in its holiest book.
The flight to Medina from Mecca... it never happened. It's a made up story.
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LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
That's a good question. In the society I live in and the laws I have accepted to live under they do have the right to mock religion. I loved Monty Python and I loved Morris's Four Lions. Humour and **** taken out of religion and it's ardent adherents. The cartoons Charlie lot made in some instances were too much for me and went beyond humour to just antagonism for the sake of it. But yes in our society they have the right too and they shouldn't be at risk for it.
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
Seriously shocked by some of the ideas about Islam and it's history by some on here. I can't debate it as I don't have the energy but some of it is so inaccurate it is making me cringe.
I prefer Scara in the sense that he just thinks it's all made up and he doesn't pretend to be an expert on the history.
I prefer Scara in the sense that he just thinks it's all made up and he doesn't pretend to be an expert on the history.
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
Just seen the latest news. More dead innocents. This is truly awful. A Kosher supermarket. I have no words.
I like those a lot.
milo
Jack L. Jones
Not quite related to this but not an entirely different subject either. I saw this earlier and thought it interesting
http://tomewing.tumblr.com/image/107455170906
AuroRaman
Chris Armstrong
Try not to let it bother you. I feel some just have a general chip on their shoulder regarding your religion and others just have a very blinkered view based on what is fed to them, which is rather ironic considering what they are posting. Considering what has been posted about something that is clearly an important part of your make-up and values, you have as ever posted in a dignified manner. Agreed about that scamp Scara as well!
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
No it doesn't bother me. I get more upset by people who liked Tim Sherwood. Now that's a heresy if I ever saw one and a freedom I would like to be taken away.
Really appreciate your post though mate. Thank you.
You're kind of proving the point - I've read the Quran and some of the Hadiths and have studied some Islamic history. I'm not attacking it and it's not my belief that it was any more of a violent religion than the other major religions. I'm only interested in the historical facts though. I think there were some better writers in the Bible though, there's nothing to compare to Job or Ecclesiastes 1 in the Quran.
The same things are applicable to Judaism and Christianity, I.E. The fiction and myth verses the historical accuracy of Moses, Jesus etc, but Muslims don't seem to be able to tolerate such discussions about Islam, often becoming angry when the subject is even broached. This warts and all portrait of Muhammed's life is always presented as factually accurate, in the same way it was once was about Jesus, but when scholars started really looking into it from the 18th century, they discovered that wasn't really the case at all, and it's one of the things that led to the decline in power of the Christianity in the West, and I'd like to see the same happen in the Islamic world. There is much good stuff in the Quran and many good things exist in Islam, such as the five pillars, and these can be retained like the good stuff of Christianity has, but the nasty stuff can be got rid of and Islam could evolve more for the 21st Century.
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
Sorry Bonsai it wasn't aimed specifically at you. It's a general trend. And I never get angry on a forum.
I am sure you have read about Islam, it is obvious. I disagree with some of your deductions though. I suppose we could discuss it via PM if you want. Importantly I have no desire to convert you lol.
I am sure you have read about Islam, it is obvious. I disagree with some of your deductions though. I suppose we could discuss it via PM if you want. Importantly I have no desire to convert you lol.
Yeah you're showing a lot of ignorance there Scara - read this if you're interested, great book. http://www.amazon.com/All-Shahs-Men-American-Middle/dp/0471265179
Iran has their current system because when they were on the way to secular democracy, Britain and USA overthrew the democratically elected leader and re-installed an undemocratic and repressive Shah (due to oil and Cold War interests respectively). They had secular democracy and we selfish ****ers took it away.
Nothing wrong with a bit of dawah, think I'd turn to Buddism though if I gave up being an athiest.
I do understand the anger about the portrayals of Mohammed - especially when they're unnecessarily crass. But they do to make a point and the point keeps being made unfortunately. I don't go in for the silly paedophile arguments or anything, different times and I maintain we don't have a truly a complete and accurate picture of his life. Not enough historians documenting things in that area at the time unfortunately - the same is true of dark ages in early English history, for which we only have the later Anglo-Saxon Chronicles and the writings of Bede to back them up. But one thing is pretty indisputable - Mohammed was a truly great man, one of the exceptional men of history, anyone who says anything else is simply being ignorant. He just wasn't a prophet sent by GHod.
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
Ok Bonsai I might have misjudged you a bit. There is a huge lack of understanding on him and the faith itself.
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
Anyway this is brilliant from James O'Brien - Please do listen
http://audioboom.com/boos/2784684-a...=retweet&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
http://audioboom.com/boos/2784684-a...=retweet&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter
My point isn't about attacking Islam, it's about admitting that it has a problem currently. Unlike DTA, I don't think this problem is just limited to extremism and terrorism and Jihad.
I think that its leanings are currently too conservative and too rooted in the literal interpretation of a 2000 year old book. Christianity isn't perfect, but it is at least attempting to catch up with modern society, slowly but surely.
You know that in Christianity, 50-100 years ago, women were regarded as second-class citizens, they never had to cover their faces, but they were supposed to cover their hair and shoulders. Homosexuality was not tolerated, neither was sexuality outside of marriage etc etc.
I think most other religions have moved with modern society better than Islam has. That's not necessarily down to Islam itself, but down to its interpretation and teaching by its leaders.
I think the hard-line extremist form of Islam, does preach Jihad, does preach violence against non-believers and does preach intolerance of education, arts and women and many other things. However, I feel there is a tolerance of it and an acceptance or covering up of the problem within the wider muslim community.
The muslim community can get angry and unite and show its opinion quite forcefully. There were massed protests by muslims all over the world about what was going on in Gaza. There are still Palestinian flags on many cars going around Bradford. Social media was full of stuff about poor palestinians and Bradford and other places with large muslim populations were full of charity events and collectors fund raising for the Palestinians.
In comparison, there really is not a peep about atrocities committed by islamic extremists. Even the horrific attack on the Pakistani school, which I found the hardest act to stomach. Friggin kids going about their short lives getting gunned down just for getting an education. How sick. Yet, compared to Gaza there was NOT. A. PEEP. Even in Bradford, that has the biggest Pakistani population in the UK, there were no collections, no posters, no flags, no solidarity. There were discussions about it sure, but nothing near what there was with Gaza.
I was surprised, but then I'm not surprised. Yes, many muslims have come out and condemned terrorist attacks carried out by Muslim extremists. And no, Islam and Muslims do not need to apologise for their actions on behalf of Muslims, that would be a ridiculous idea.
However, where is the real anti-extremist feeling. Afterall, they really are giving Islam a bad name. They're isolating Muslims all over the world. The Muslim community can rise up against Gaza, but it can't seem to rise up against Islamic extremism. It just tolerates it quietly. To be honest, as I've said, they sympathise with some of the views. Not in a condoning way but in a "well i understand as a Muslim why he did that" kind of way. I know a lot of colleagues and even friends who have said such things.
It's a kind of insidious acceptance or ignoring of the problem. It's like what I was saying about the Catholic problem with child abuse. If an individual case was exposed and got into the media, there would be public condemnation by the Catholic community, but all the while no major steps were taken to tackle the problem and in fact there were positive steps to cover up and and an acceptance of the problem. The teachings of Catholicism at the time also led to the situations where kids were taken advantage of.
The reason I mention this is that religion can be a powerful force, for good an evil. Kids are brought up in religious backgrounds impressionable. Priests and Immams become father figures, who offer advice on all kinds of issues. These figures become community figure-heads with far-reaching influence. Their interpretations of the bible and Quran are more important than the actual words of the books themselves.
Muslim teachings at the moment are leaning more towards the old, conservative interpretations. Particularly among young muslims the fundamentalist vision of Islam (sharia law, burka and other fundamentalist dress, long beards and all that jazz) is actually growing in popularity among young muslims, influenced by conservative clerics.
Abu Hamza and his ilk preach Islam very publically and a violent form of the religion, centred on Jihad and intolerance. This guy was not positioned as a nut-job and there was no mass move to counter his preaching. Muslims did not turn up at his sermons and shout him down. He was tolerated, accepted as a representative of Islam. THAT'S the problem.
If a Christian priest started mouthing off calling on Christians to kill and maim and fight crusades, he would be butchered by the media and the wider Christian community. There are a wide range of radical clerics allowed to practice their form of violent islam in mosques without counter. That is where the recruiting process happens, not online as DTA or someone else suggested. There is a guy in Bradford who is an ex-extremist who managed to break the cycle and is now a community project leader attempting to reach out to other young muslims in danger of being radicalised. The main recruiting of and brain washing of impressionable youngsters is done in the Mosques according to him. it is tolerated by the wider community. These Immams or clerics are not shouted down or stripped of their status. They're simply ignored by those that choose not to go in that direction in their muslim faith.
Muslims are also very defensive against anyone who is a non-Muslim criticising Islam or actions carried out by Muslims. The automatic reaction of a Muslim hearing a non-Muslim say how terrible the two brothers are isn't really to agree, but is to defend and say how offensive they found the cartoons of the prophet Mohammed.
Again, i think this stems from conservative teachings of Islam, that encourages isolation of the Muslim community from other communities.
I think Bradford is a good example of it. Come to Bradford, its ridiculously segregated. The Pakistanis are mainly concentrated in particular areas and don't mix with the white people and they all go to the same schools. It's because culturally they're cut-off. They don't marry outside the religion, and mixed relationships are rare as a result, as any prospective partner has to convert and most people wouldn't want to. They don't drink, so they don't socialise with other groups in the City. They eat Halal, so they don't go to all of the same restaurants. It's not that these practices are that bad, but they're adhered to so strictly that they isolate the Muslim community. There's a big problem with the Pakistani kids under performing versus other ethnic groups at schools in Bradford, local authorities have been trying to do a lot of work to combat the problem as a lot of the muslim kids in the city are trapped in a cycle of poverty. Part of the problem is that the attitude of the community is that western education is not important and the Quran is a good education. They are told to concentrate on religious studies. Problem is employers don't place much weight on being able to recite the Quran or on whether you paid the correct amount of Zakat.
I feel the Muslim community should get angry at the extremists, I think they should take action. I think that's for their own sake rather than the sake of appeasing people like me.
I feel like Islam can move forward, it can modernise. There are plenty of teachings of the religion that can be moved forward in an open and modern society. They just need to leave some things in the past, as past interpretations of the word of GHod. Not that i'm religious, but its all about how you interpret the old books and texts and teachings.
Modernisation of Islam means less conservative teachings, abandoning aspects of the religion much like Christianity has abandoned aspects of its past practices.
I think that its leanings are currently too conservative and too rooted in the literal interpretation of a 2000 year old book. Christianity isn't perfect, but it is at least attempting to catch up with modern society, slowly but surely.
You know that in Christianity, 50-100 years ago, women were regarded as second-class citizens, they never had to cover their faces, but they were supposed to cover their hair and shoulders. Homosexuality was not tolerated, neither was sexuality outside of marriage etc etc.
I think most other religions have moved with modern society better than Islam has. That's not necessarily down to Islam itself, but down to its interpretation and teaching by its leaders.
I think the hard-line extremist form of Islam, does preach Jihad, does preach violence against non-believers and does preach intolerance of education, arts and women and many other things. However, I feel there is a tolerance of it and an acceptance or covering up of the problem within the wider muslim community.
The muslim community can get angry and unite and show its opinion quite forcefully. There were massed protests by muslims all over the world about what was going on in Gaza. There are still Palestinian flags on many cars going around Bradford. Social media was full of stuff about poor palestinians and Bradford and other places with large muslim populations were full of charity events and collectors fund raising for the Palestinians.
In comparison, there really is not a peep about atrocities committed by islamic extremists. Even the horrific attack on the Pakistani school, which I found the hardest act to stomach. Friggin kids going about their short lives getting gunned down just for getting an education. How sick. Yet, compared to Gaza there was NOT. A. PEEP. Even in Bradford, that has the biggest Pakistani population in the UK, there were no collections, no posters, no flags, no solidarity. There were discussions about it sure, but nothing near what there was with Gaza.
I was surprised, but then I'm not surprised. Yes, many muslims have come out and condemned terrorist attacks carried out by Muslim extremists. And no, Islam and Muslims do not need to apologise for their actions on behalf of Muslims, that would be a ridiculous idea.
However, where is the real anti-extremist feeling. Afterall, they really are giving Islam a bad name. They're isolating Muslims all over the world. The Muslim community can rise up against Gaza, but it can't seem to rise up against Islamic extremism. It just tolerates it quietly. To be honest, as I've said, they sympathise with some of the views. Not in a condoning way but in a "well i understand as a Muslim why he did that" kind of way. I know a lot of colleagues and even friends who have said such things.
It's a kind of insidious acceptance or ignoring of the problem. It's like what I was saying about the Catholic problem with child abuse. If an individual case was exposed and got into the media, there would be public condemnation by the Catholic community, but all the while no major steps were taken to tackle the problem and in fact there were positive steps to cover up and and an acceptance of the problem. The teachings of Catholicism at the time also led to the situations where kids were taken advantage of.
The reason I mention this is that religion can be a powerful force, for good an evil. Kids are brought up in religious backgrounds impressionable. Priests and Immams become father figures, who offer advice on all kinds of issues. These figures become community figure-heads with far-reaching influence. Their interpretations of the bible and Quran are more important than the actual words of the books themselves.
Muslim teachings at the moment are leaning more towards the old, conservative interpretations. Particularly among young muslims the fundamentalist vision of Islam (sharia law, burka and other fundamentalist dress, long beards and all that jazz) is actually growing in popularity among young muslims, influenced by conservative clerics.
Abu Hamza and his ilk preach Islam very publically and a violent form of the religion, centred on Jihad and intolerance. This guy was not positioned as a nut-job and there was no mass move to counter his preaching. Muslims did not turn up at his sermons and shout him down. He was tolerated, accepted as a representative of Islam. THAT'S the problem.
If a Christian priest started mouthing off calling on Christians to kill and maim and fight crusades, he would be butchered by the media and the wider Christian community. There are a wide range of radical clerics allowed to practice their form of violent islam in mosques without counter. That is where the recruiting process happens, not online as DTA or someone else suggested. There is a guy in Bradford who is an ex-extremist who managed to break the cycle and is now a community project leader attempting to reach out to other young muslims in danger of being radicalised. The main recruiting of and brain washing of impressionable youngsters is done in the Mosques according to him. it is tolerated by the wider community. These Immams or clerics are not shouted down or stripped of their status. They're simply ignored by those that choose not to go in that direction in their muslim faith.
Muslims are also very defensive against anyone who is a non-Muslim criticising Islam or actions carried out by Muslims. The automatic reaction of a Muslim hearing a non-Muslim say how terrible the two brothers are isn't really to agree, but is to defend and say how offensive they found the cartoons of the prophet Mohammed.
Again, i think this stems from conservative teachings of Islam, that encourages isolation of the Muslim community from other communities.
I think Bradford is a good example of it. Come to Bradford, its ridiculously segregated. The Pakistanis are mainly concentrated in particular areas and don't mix with the white people and they all go to the same schools. It's because culturally they're cut-off. They don't marry outside the religion, and mixed relationships are rare as a result, as any prospective partner has to convert and most people wouldn't want to. They don't drink, so they don't socialise with other groups in the City. They eat Halal, so they don't go to all of the same restaurants. It's not that these practices are that bad, but they're adhered to so strictly that they isolate the Muslim community. There's a big problem with the Pakistani kids under performing versus other ethnic groups at schools in Bradford, local authorities have been trying to do a lot of work to combat the problem as a lot of the muslim kids in the city are trapped in a cycle of poverty. Part of the problem is that the attitude of the community is that western education is not important and the Quran is a good education. They are told to concentrate on religious studies. Problem is employers don't place much weight on being able to recite the Quran or on whether you paid the correct amount of Zakat.
I feel the Muslim community should get angry at the extremists, I think they should take action. I think that's for their own sake rather than the sake of appeasing people like me.
I feel like Islam can move forward, it can modernise. There are plenty of teachings of the religion that can be moved forward in an open and modern society. They just need to leave some things in the past, as past interpretations of the word of GHod. Not that i'm religious, but its all about how you interpret the old books and texts and teachings.
Modernisation of Islam means less conservative teachings, abandoning aspects of the religion much like Christianity has abandoned aspects of its past practices.