Paris

[PochettinoPochettinoPochettino]

Watched that video and feel sick now. Really sick in the stomach. RIP those brutally murdered.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[Superted]

As the person ultimately responsible for what ends up on this site, I'd like to make it clear that if anyone wants to ridicule any religion or draw some cartoons and post them here, go ahead.

If anyone believes their GHod is more important than our freedom then **** you and your GHod.

This is my drawing of Mohhamed k:

And this is Jesus :jam:

 

[Daisuk]

Posted a few years back by The Onion.

Following the publication of the image above, in which the most cherished figures from multiple religious faiths were depicted engaging in a lascivious sex act of considerable depravity, no one was murdered, beaten, or had their lives threatened, sources reported Thursday.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/

RIP to the dead. What cowardice and stupidity.

 

[Bonsaiboy]

So you agree that this is the safest time there has ever been to be alive. Good.

Well, I don't really think I said that at all.

Agreed. Along with, as Luton points out, overload of information.



Are you being purposefully difficult whilst you search for a period of time when humans had it better?

My problem was not with "improve" instead of "better". I claimed that the world is improving. You twisted that "to world will always get better", as you argued about potential futures where that would not be the case. I made no claims that it would continue indefinitely into the future. You argued against a straw man. Can you spot the difference? If not I don't know how to make it any clearer.

You had no problems initially talking about better or worse. What changed? Again. Please look at my comments in context. People claimed that the world is getting worse (essentially), I disagreed with that claiming that the world is getting better. You first go off on some path about potential futures where that might not be the case (seemingly accepting that things can in fact get better, or worse). Then you go away on some relativistic path claiming that "better is an entirely subjective notion", having already argued for ways things could get worse. I have no idea where you're heading next, but if it continues down this kind of relativistic path let me just say that I completely disagree and that I see no reason why you would even join in a discussion like this if you don't think it matters as better and worse are just subjective notions. If you're actually getting back on topic feel free to actually back up your previous statement with some examples of times when we were better off.

That is obviously not a useful definition of free speech. But I have no idea if you thought I would think that, if you think that yourself, or if it was just some hypothetical thought you threw out there.

You're afraid of getting harassed? I'm assuming you mean that you're afraid of people voicing their disagreement on an Common ostrich discussion board?

If you want this discussion to continue I think it would be rather useful if you would state what you think free speech is as a starting point instead of making vague references to whatever it is you're referring to.

I'll put in a quote that at least should clarify slightly how I feel about the issue:

“What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.”
― Salman Rushdie

I think I was quite clear in what I said, and you're just - again - waffling on about straw men.

To put my point of view in context, you essentially believe that things will generally improve and get better apart from the odd setback perhaps. Kind of like it will all somehow work out in the end - the lift may stop at some floors, occasionally go down but it will inevitably go onwards and upwards.

What I believe is that someone could come and pi55 in the lift, or even to a great big turd in it, and it might get stuck and everyone would start fighting and the strong ones kill and have sex with the weaker ones. And they'll stay there for a while until the cable snaps and everyone in it falls down and dies. Is that clear enough?

Free speech to me is the freedom to say anything you want as long as you can back it up with rational arguments. But this is not the reality of what is currently regarded as "free speech," which is, as I said earlier is, "you can say anything you want as long as you don't upset people who, for whatever reason, are deemed to be people who are not allowed to be upset."

 

[braineclipse]

Well, I don't really think I said that at all.



I think I was quite clear in what I said, and you're just - again - waffling on about straw men.

To put my point of view in context, you essentially believe that things will generally improve and get better apart from the odd setback perhaps. Kind of like it will all somehow work out in the end - the lift may stop at some floors, occasionally go down but it will inevitably go onwards and upwards.

What I believe is that someone could come and pi55 in the lift, or even to a great big turd in it, and it might get stuck and everyone would start fighting and the strong ones kill and have sex with the weaker ones. And they'll stay there for a while until the cable snaps and everyone in it falls down and dies. Is that clear enough?

Free speech to me is the freedom to say anything you want as long as you can back it up with rational arguments. But this is not the reality of what is currently regarded as "free speech," which is, as I said earlier is, "you can say anything you want as long as you don't upset people who, for whatever reason, are deemed to be people who are not allowed to be upset."

In a reply to the post where I specifically pointed out "I made no claims that it would continue indefinitely into the future" you claim that I believe "it will inevitably go onwards and upwards"... ](*,) But I'm waffling on about straw men?

You've made no comment relevant to what I originally said. I already said that your points were solid, but for a different discussion. I've made no claim to the contrary of what you say, I understood your points all along. My original point was about the situation currently improving, you claimed that was wrong, I asked for examples where it was previously better and... Much ado about nothing.

Freedom of speech has no rationality clause and it shouldn't have one, never seen anyone claim that it should before.

Some people do think there is or should be a offense clause in freedom of speech, presumably they disagree with what Salman Rushdie said in the quote I posted. For me people worth listening to on freedom of speech will agree with Rushdie. The US gets many things wrong, but their constitution got it completely right on this issue. The journalists and cartoonists now sadly no longer with us also got it entirely right, and from what I've read the French government and their people are getting it right and not interpreting freedom of speech as something that should have an offense clause.

 

[NWND]

This is the final straw for me. F@@@ it. There is a f@@@ing global problem with muslims and islam. While not all Muslims are terrorists, most terrorists are Muslim and radicalisation and violent behaviour appear to be at least tolerated or justified by the Muslim community even though many of them would not dare take part in the atrocities themselves. I actually know a guy who is a nice lad overall but he goes to mosque every Friday and he said that he did understand the feeling behind the attacks. He's always sticking up for the terrorists and justifying it by referring to Israel and Palestine and blocks like this.

Its like the Catholic church denying there was a child abuse problem for years. How bad do things have to get for Islamic leaders to admit that actually the insistence on sticking to the stricter doctrines of Islam is breeding this violent and disgusting branch of Islam. There are a lot of passages in the Qur'an that emphasise intolerance and distrust and even violence towards non-believers and these enable the brainwashing of what is let's face it a significant minority even if it is a minority.


If Islam is not going to end up completely isolated and at war with everyone else, Islamic leaders need to position the Qur'an like the bible is positioned in most practices of Christianity- as a guide written based in that time, not as something that must be followed to the letter.

There's a massive problem developing and it's time for the authorities and society to call a spade a spade and tackle the problem

 

[Baleforce]

horrible situation

badly thought out though eh? I'd never heard of this cartoon before, but now I'll be reading every single strip

it depresses me greatly that people can be so ****ing stupid

 

[Baleforce]

This is the final straw for me. F@@@ it. There is a f@@@ing global problem with muslims and islam. While not all Muslims are terrorists, most terrorists are Muslim and radicalisation and violent behaviour appear to be at least tolerated or justified by the Muslim community even though many of them would not dare take part in the atrocities themselves. I actually know a guy who is a nice lad overall but he goes to mosque every Friday and he said that he did understand the feeling behind the attacks. He's always sticking up for the terrorists and justifying it by referring to Israel and Palestine and blocks like this.

Its like the Catholic church denying there was a child abuse problem for years. How bad do things have to get for Islamic leaders to admit that actually the insistence on sticking to the stricter doctrines of Islam is breeding this violent and disgusting branch of Islam. There are a lot of passages in the Qur'an that emphasise intolerance and distrust and even violence towards non-believers and these enable the brainwashing of what is let's face it a significant minority even if it is a minority.


If Islam is not going to end up completely isolated and at war with everyone else, Islamic leaders need to position the Qur'an like the bible is positioned in most practices of Christianity- as a guide written based in that time, not as something that must be followed to the letter.

There's a massive problem developing and it's time for the authorities and society to call a spade a spade and tackle the problem

all religions have this problem, for every lunatic act caried out by Muslim's there is one of equal destruction carried out by Christian's

sadly the problem is merely stupidity, and there is no cure for that, once the boffins invent logic capsules and critical thinking serum we will be home free

oh, and, there isn't a more poisonous and intolerant text in human history than the bible

 

[NWND]

all religions have this problem, for every lunatic act caried out by Muslim's there is one of equal destruction carried out by Christian's

sadly the problem is merely stupidity, and there is no cure for that, once the boffins invent logic capsules and critical thinking serum we will be home free

oh, and, there isn't a more poisonous and intolerant text in human history than the bible

Really? Please show me all these attacks and atrocities carried out in the name of Christianity?

 

[billyiddo]

probably best off not opening that can of worms...

i don't think any solutions come from getting bogged down in 'well Christianity has done XY and Z in the past'

the past is the past and what has been done can't be changed, what's important is the present and the future.

 

[Baleforce]

Really? Please show me all these attacks and atrocities carried out in the name of Christianity?

are the crusades and the holocaust enough?

many more, pretty much every war in Europe ever was waged in the name of GHod

 

[NWND]

probably best off not opening that can of worms...

i don't think any solutions come from getting bogged down in 'well Christianity has done XY and Z in the past'

the past is the past and what has been done can't be changed, what's important is the present and the future.

Precisely but we have a CURRENT and very pressing problem of a highly violent and intolerant form of Islam that unfortunately is proving very attractive and persuasive to significant numbers of particularly young muslims. How many were estimated to have left to fight for Islamic state and affiliated groups? 500 a year or something? We need to tackle this issue and all the hand ringers who pretend there are people going around murdering people in the name of Christianity or Sikhism or Bhuddism etc are mot doing anyone any favours

 

[NWND]

are the crusades and the holocaust enough?

many more, pretty much every war in Europe ever was waged in the name of GHod

Oh my GHod, so the fact that these things happened 50- 100s of years ago we can't call out the current problem with Islamic ideology? Rubbish.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Precisely but we have a CURRENT and very pressing problem of a highly violent and intolerant form of Islam that unfortunately is proving very attractive and persuasive to significant numbers of particularly young muslims. How many were estimated to have left to fight for Islamic state and affiliated groups? 500 a year or something? We need to tackle this issue and all the hand ringers who pretend there are people going around murdering people in the name of Christianity or Sikhism or Bhuddism etc are mot doing anyone any favours

Sorry to be flippant, but are you REALLY asking for a current affairs/history lesson here??

 

[billyiddo]

Precisely but we have a CURRENT and very pressing problem of a highly violent and intolerant form of Islam that unfortunately is proving very attractive and persuasive to significant numbers of particularly young muslims. How many were estimated to have left to fight for Islamic state and affiliated groups? 500 a year or something? We need to tackle this issue and all the hand ringers who pretend there are people going around murdering people in the name of Christianity or Sikhism or Bhuddism etc are mot doing anyone any favours

Oh i agree - some just don't want to face up to the problem and although im sure it's not intentional all it does it help prevent the issue being tackled/resolved.

Hundreds (thousands quite possibly) of young BRITISH muslims are exposed to extremist teachings in THIS COUNTRY - it's so persuasive that a sizeable percentage then go to risk their lives fighting in a war on the other side of the planet! It's ****ing crazy - i mean how does this happen without anyone 'moderate' having a bit of an idea? My guess is there's a lot of people who turn a blind eye

 

[NWND]

Sorry to be flippant, but are you REALLY asking for a current affairs/history lesson here??

There are not currently regular atrocities being carried out globally by Christian/other religions against non-believers precisely targeting things that they consider to be against their religion are there though? The fact that the crusades happened 100s of years ago is irrelevant. Why can't you see this?

 

[braineclipse]

Pointing out now that there is a conflict between Islam as currently practiced by some and human progress must certainly be allowed, regardless of what has happened with other religions and ideologies in the past or the present. I'm an atheist and see problems with all religions, but right now Islam poses a greater threat than the other religions to what I think is important for human progress.

Certainly one of the biggest obstacles to peace and human well being around. Christianity also being so at some point in the past doesn't invalidate that. Although terrorism is in itself only a very small portion of the problem posed by Islam, the problem is still there.

I don't agree with galeforce that the problem is merely stupidity. There are right and wrong ways to face up to this issue, probably more wrong than right ways unfortunately. A positive development is certainly possible.

 

[glorygloryeze]

There are not currently regular atrocities being carried out globally by Christian/other religions against non-believers precisely targeting things that they consider to be against their religion are there though? The fact that the crusades happened 100s of years ago is irrelevant. Why can't you see this?

There are atrocities being carried out across the globe in the name of religion. Just look at our own doorstep in Northern Ireland BETWEEN Christian sects FFS.
The media we have access to in this country is naturally going to report things from a Western (i.e Christian) perspective and focus on the atrocities that involve mainly Western (i.e. Christian) populations or interests.

The fact is the crusades happened centuries ago, but the quest of controlling minds across many different realms (which is what those crusades were all about really) has continued and the two main warring factions at present (and back then) were the Christian and Islamic factions, the two biggest Geo-Political-Religious movements globally.
You are only highlighting the current 'problem' because the media 'cheerleaders' for the Christian factions are able to shout loudest for their viewpoint.
The fact that you don't seem to know of atrocities that are committed in the name of Buddism, Sikism, Hindusim is just a reflection of their relative sizes globally and the slant of reporting we are mainly exposed to here.

 

[Daisuk]

[video=youtube;5sEcBzxoMB8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sEcBzxoMB8[/video]

 

[glorygloryeze]

Pointing out now that there is a conflict between Islam as currently practiced by some and human progress must certainly be allowed, regardless of what has happened with other religions and ideologies in the past or the present. I'm an atheist and see problems with all religions, but right now Islam poses a greater threat than the other religions to what I think is important for human progress.

Certainly one of the biggest obstacles to peace and human well being around. Christianity also being so at some point in the past doesn't invalidate that. Although terrorism is in itself only a very small portion of the problem posed by Islam, the problem is still there.

I don't agree with galeforce that the problem is merely stupidity. There are right and wrong ways to face up to this issue, probably more wrong than right ways unfortunately. A positive development is certainly possible.

In what way is that so actually? Are you basing that on Western (i.e. Christian) based reporting and coverage (which through technology and global reach can shout much louder than most)?