OMT *** Tottenham Hotspur v woolwich *** 22.2.26

[braineclipse]

Which is fair enough, and yet Brentford and Wolves took points from Arsenal in their last two games. Is there not a gulf in class there too? How do they get draws and we get spanked 1-4 at home?

Every game is different, of course, but I thought we were a mess on Sunday and I wasn’t seeing players really grasping that we are in serious danger - too many half-arsing it imo.

Didn't actu watch those games but...

Brentford are unfortunately quite a bit better than us at the moment. And a team well set up over time to do well in games like that.

Wolves seems more like a luck/variance thing. Play those games enough times and sometimes both Wolves and ourselves would get a resul?

 

[Bishop]

Seeing a fair bit of talk from fans that we didnt expect to beat Woolwich but were just looking for a bit of fight and didn’t get it.

I’d have to disagree. I thought the players worked hard and it was largely down to their effort that we were level at half time.

I thought we were just outclassed. Totally and utterly. I wonder if fans mean “I don’t mind being beaten by them as long as we’re competitive.” In fairness, we weren’t really competitive but that, in my opinion, was due to a gulf in class not a gulf in effort.

I was at the game and I haven't watched it back but for me we fought, we were disciplined and despite the result it was a good effort. The problem is that we are low on actual quality, so if we aren't able to take our chances of are wrongly denied (Muani's second) then eventually the quality will win out. In the second half we looked a little tired but moreso It felt like we just had to do everything perfectly to keep them away whilst not being able to offer much ourselves.

I think most people are reacting to the score which was somewhat of a collapse but a very understandable one I felt given the circumstances. At the same time whilst I'm not down and out about this match in terms of effort and fight i didn't see anything in terms of real quality that gives me any hope going forward.

I think it's going to be a dogfight and we aren't really suited to that (not that we are suited particularly for anything ).

 

[Bishop]

Didn't actu watch those games but...

Brentford are unfortunately quite a bit better than us at the moment. And a team well set up over time to do well in games like that.

Wolves seems more like a luck/variance thing. Play those games enough times and sometimes both Wolves and ourselves would get a resul?

I think with us vs Wolves is that Wolves know what they are. They've accepted it and thus play accordingly. Whereas we think we are a top team. We pay top team wages, our players come here thinking that is roughly what they are joining.

So we sort of play head to head, our players are supposed to be a little bit more silky than their Wolves counterparts, a little bit more crisp, a bit faster, a bit stronger, a bit more creative etc. but in reality we aren't or at best we aren't to a degree that it makes a difference. So we play these games trying to play football but we aren't particularly good at doing so so we are caught in this weird half way house. Not good enough to actually be good and not brick enough to realize and accept that we are brick and then play accordingly.

 

[braineclipse]

I think with us vs Wolves is that Wolves know what they are. They've accepted it and thus play accordingly. Whereas we think we are a top team. We pay top team wages, our players come here thinking that is roughly what they are joining.

So we sort of play head to head, our players are supposed to be a little bit more silky than their Wolves counterparts, a little bit more crisp, a bit faster, a bit stronger, a bit more creative etc. but in reality we aren't or at best we aren't to a degree that it makes a difference. So we play these games trying to play football but we aren't particularly good at doing so so we are caught in this weird half way house. Not good enough to actually be good and not brick enough to realize and accept that we are brick and then play accordingly.

I think it's more just that sometimes in football improbable things happen, like Wolves getting a point against Arsenal despite being a much worse team.

Frank had us playing like if we were brick most of the season, didn't do much for us.

 

[Mikey10]

We pay top team wages

Ermmm....

 

[glorygloryeze]

Which is fair enough, and yet Brentford and Wolves took points from Arsenal in their last two games. Is there not a gulf in class there too? How do they get draws and we get spanked 1-4 at home?

Every game is different, of course, but I thought we were a mess on Sunday and I wasn’t seeing players really grasping that we are in serious danger - too many half-arsing it imo.

From watching on telly i thought the effort was mostly there but not the belief and quality.
Some silly play too from the likes of Dragusin and Spence

But i think it'd be harsh to say anyone was hafl-arsing things...but which players made you think that?

 

[Finney Is Back]

I hate 3 at the back and I don't think its ever going to work here and especially not with this group of players. Its such a specific system that requires non rounded player attributes, I just dont see it. Even if we had a 100% fit squad I still dont see how we put together a cohesive side, too many of our "better" players don't really fit although thats less of a worry given the majority of them are unavailable.

-----------------------Vic
----------Dans-----Palhina--------VDV
Porro-----------------------------------------Souza
-----------Bissouma---------Gallagher
--------------------Simmons
-------------Solanke----------Muani


You could swap Palahina for Gallagher but I think i'd task Bissouma with getting the ball forward centrally and hope that his partner can cover for him if he loses the ball. Either way i'm convinced, this side seriously lacks width and quality there if those WBs aren't able to effect the game.

Edit: forgot Romero is still suspended. In that case i'd have Pahinha or Dragusin in defence and Danso moving over to central positioned defender.

Considering who we have available and back soon and Tudor's preference for a 3-4-3 type formation I think this could perhaps work:

-----------------Vic (unfortunately)
---------Gray---------Romero---------VDV
Porro----------Palhinha-----Gallagher-------------Souza
-----Muani-------------Solanke-------Richi

Don't press the opposition, instead play a mid block, don't play out from the back (as the previous manager hadn't coached any way of doing so and it's too late now for Tudor to turn the tide here). Instead go long and look to get on the second ball (Palhinha and Gallagher should be good at this). Have Porro and Souza providing the width and keep the three big guys up front reasonably close to each other. Gray or VDV can push up (not both at once) and make an extra man in attack.

Alternatively we could play more of a 3-5-2 with Palhinha at the base and Gallagher and Xavi given license to get forward and beyond the strikers at times. Similar tactics as above.

-------------------------Vic
---------Gray---------Romero---------VDV
Porro----------------Palhinha-----------------Souza
-----------Gallagher--------------Xavi
-----------------Muani-----Solanke

 

[braineclipse]

Considering who we have available and back soon and Tudor's preference for a 3-4-3 type formation I think this could perhaps work:

-----------------Vic (unfortunately)
---------Gray---------Romero---------VDV
Porro----------Palhinha-----Gallagher-------------Souza
-----Muani-------------Solanke-------Richi

Don't press the opposition, instead play a mid block, don't play out from the back (as the previous manager hadn't coached any way of doing so and it's too late now for Tudor to turn the tide here). Instead go long and look to get on the second ball (Palhinha and Gallagher should be good at this). Have Porro and Souza providing the width and keep the three big guys up front reasonably close to each other. Gray or VDV can push up (not both at once) and make an extra man in attack.

Alternatively we could play more of a 3-5-2 with Palhinha at the base and Gallagher and Xavi given license to get forward and beyond the strikers at times. Similar tactics as above.

-------------------------Vic
---------Gray---------Romero---------VDV
Porro----------------Palhinha-----------------Souza
-----------Gallagher--------------Xavi
-----------------Muani-----Solanke

Absolutely agreed. And I struggle to see how that's any less (or more) balanced or suited to the players we have available than any other formation.

A significant question mark over Souza there and his ability to perform in the PL this quickly. I guess there is an argument that we could in that regard be better suited to a back four system with Spence as a more traditional full back and that having less of a negative impact than Spence as a LWB with more attacking and wider responsibility. But that again would ask the question of who our left winger should be who could provide that width in a back 4 system?

Lacking balance no matter what. For me Tudor should probably use the system he knows best and knows how to work within. Probably not like he's had perfectly suited options for that in his past jobs either.

How we play more important than the numerical formation. As long as teams press us high you're probably right that we have to stick with the long ball game most of the time. If teams drop into a low or mid block that can obviously change.

Solanke and either Muani or Richarlison should give us decent targets to aim those long balls too. Plenty of running from midfield and wing backs and that could work.

If we do line up with Gray and Romero at CB as well as having Porro back that could give us some quality to actually build from the back if there's time to work on that, after as you say not trying that for most of the season so far.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I hate 3 at the back and I don't think its ever going to work here and especially not with this group of players. Its such a specific system that requires non rounded player attributes, I just dont see it. Even if we had a 100% fit squad I still dont see how we put together a cohesive side, too many of our "better" players don't really fit although thats less of a worry given the majority of them are unavailable.

-----------------------Vic
----------Dans-----Palhina--------VDV
Porro-----------------------------------------Souza
-----------Bissouma---------Gallagher
--------------------Simmons
-------------Solanke----------Muani


You could swap Palahina for Gallagher but I think i'd task Bissouma with getting the ball forward centrally and hope that his partner can cover for him if he loses the ball. Either way i'm convinced, this side seriously lacks width and quality there if those WBs aren't able to effect the game.

Edit: forgot Romero is still suspended. In that case i'd have Pahinha or Dragusin in defence and Danso moving over to central positioned defender.

I don't think you can play three at the back with all three centre backs being poor users of the ball. If we are to play with 3 centre backs then I think we need at least two of them to be good passers, otherwise the opposition can just let them have the ball and sit off to ensure they are there to win the second ball after a long ball.

 

[mudshark]

One of our biggest issues, I think, is our lack of press-resistance. The last game was case in point. Not all teams press as effectively as them, but it is a feature of most opponents' play, and we're simply not equipped to cope, especially with the squad depleted as it is. I'm more convinced than ever now of my analysis that the reason Frank's approach with us was virtually the opposite of the way he talked about playing (risk-taking, bravery on the ball) was that he just didn't trust them to play an open, attacking game in the PL without giving the ball away every two minutes and conceding large numbers of goals. It would be very interesting to get his unfiltered thoughts on the squad now he's out of it and is under no obligation to massage their egos anymore.

 

[braineclipse]

One of our biggest issues, I think, is our lack of press-resistance. The last game was case in point. Not all teams press as effectively as them, but it is a feature of most opponents' play, and we're simply not equipped to cope, especially with the squad depleted as it is. I'm more convinced than ever now of my analysis that the reason Frank's approach with us was virtually the opposite of the way he talked about playing (risk-taking, bravery on the ball) was that he just didn't trust them to play an open, attacking game in the PL without giving the ball away every two minutes and conceding large numbers of goals. It would be very interesting to get his unfiltered thoughts on the squad now he's out of it and is under no obligation to massage their egos anymore.

Which would just make it even more baffling that we went a summer and January window without signing a single player that would improve our press resistance in deeper areas (defenders, deep midfield). While signing and paying significant wages for players in midfield that wouldn't do that - Palhinha and Gallagher. And seemingly freezing out our only deep midfielder with experience who at least can be press resistant in Bissouma. And giving Bergvall who showed last season what he can do in deeper areas of midfield a grand total of one start there when he was fit. And even then only because of an already existing injury crisis.

I'm not saying we'd have to sign Rodri or someone else world class that we couldn't sign. But even someone that at least could be a useful option in that regard against some of the teams that aren't as effective as that lot.

Or, failing that, at least get a big lump up front we could have hoofed it to instead of ending up with Solanke as our only real target man who then got injured.

It's like identifying the problem with a pub being that it's out of beer, but getting three new dishwashers in to compensate.

 

[mudshark]

Which would just make it even more baffling that we went a summer and January window without signing a single player that would improve our press resistance in deeper areas (defenders, deep midfield). While signing and paying significant wages for players in midfield that wouldn't do that - Palhinha and Gallagher. And seemingly freezing out our only deep midfielder with experience who at least can be press resistant in Bissouma. And giving Bergvall who showed last season what he can do in deeper areas of midfield a grand total of one start there when he was fit. And even then only because of an already existing injury crisis.

I'm not saying we'd have to sign Rodri or someone else world class that we couldn't sign. But even someone that at least could be a useful option in that regard against some of the teams that aren't as effective as that lot.

Or, failing that, at least get a big lump up front we could have hoofed it to instead of ending up with Solanke as our only real target man who then got injured.

It's like identifying the problem with a pub being that it's out of beer, but getting three new dishwashers in to compensate.

An absolute dereliction, in my view.

 

[braineclipse]

I don't think you can play three at the back with all three centre backs being poor users of the ball. If we are to play with 3 centre backs then I think we need at least two of them to be good passers, otherwise the opposition can just let them have the ball and sit off to ensure they are there to win the second ball after a long ball.

Gray returning to CB...

It is the way.

 

[Bishop]

Which would just make it even more baffling that we went a summer and January window without signing a single player that would improve our press resistance in deeper areas (defenders, deep midfield). While signing and paying significant wages for players in midfield that wouldn't do that - Palhinha and Gallagher. And seemingly freezing out our only deep midfielder with experience who at least can be press resistant in Bissouma. And giving Bergvall who showed last season what he can do in deeper areas of midfield a grand total of one start there when he was fit. And even then only because of an already existing injury crisis.

I'm not saying we'd have to sign Rodri or someone else world class that we couldn't sign. But even someone that at least could be a useful option in that regard against some of the teams that aren't as effective as that lot.

Or, failing that, at least get a big lump up front we could have hoofed it to instead of ending up with Solanke as our only real target man who then got injured.

It's like identifying the problem with a pub being that it's out of beer, but getting three new dishwashers in to compensate.

Bergvall isn't really press resistant. Yes he can beat his marker but he loses the ball a hell of a lot and often in dangerous positions. Hes the opposite of press resistant.

 

[Bishop]

I don't think you can play three at the back with all three centre backs being poor users of the ball. If we are to play with 3 centre backs then I think we need at least two of them to be good passers, otherwise the opposition can just let them have the ball and sit off to ensure they are there to win the second ball after a long ball.

Danso is an ok passer and supposedly he might make the Fulham match. He's the best CB passer we have after Romero imo and probably the best pure defender to go with that. He's the one I would task with the role especially in Romero's absence assuming he's fit and available.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

One of our biggest issues, I think, is our lack of press-resistance. The last game was case in point. Not all teams press as effectively as them, but it is a feature of most opponents' play, and we're simply not equipped to cope, especially with the squad depleted as it is. I'm more convinced than ever now of my analysis that the reason Frank's approach with us was virtually the opposite of the way he talked about playing (risk-taking, bravery on the ball) was that he just didn't trust them to play an open, attacking game in the PL without giving the ball away every two minutes and conceding large numbers of goals. It would be very interesting to get his unfiltered thoughts on the squad now he's out of it and is under no obligation to massage their egos anymore.

All our press resistent players are out (i'm talking Maddison, Kulusevski, Kudus).

 

[braineclipse]

Bergvall isn't really press resistant. Yes he can beat his marker but he loses the ball a hell of a lot and often in dangerous positions. Hes the opposite of press resistant.

My understanding of being press resistant isn't just about being able to keep possession, but being able to progress the ball through pressure, do useful things with the ball even though under pressure.

He is more high risk high reward in that regard compared to someone like Maddison for sure. But he is someone you can give the ball to under pressure and with a decent frequency he'll do useful things, bit like Kulusevski.

I think he showed last season that although he is more high risk he's also well capable of keeping it more simple when needed in a deeper role. He's not someone that will always take risks.

To me the closest player to being the opposite of press resistant in the squad would be Dragusin.

 

[Mikey10]

From watching on telly i thought the effort was mostly there but not the belief and quality.
Some silly play too from the likes of Dragusin and Spence

But i think it'd be harsh to say anyone was hafl-arsing things...but which players made you think that?

I thought there were players losing the ball at times and not really busting a gut to get it back. Bissouma, Sarr and Spence were all guilty of it at different points, I felt.

Arsenal outran us by 5kms at home in a NLD, having played twice (I think?) since we last played, and when we are absolutely desperate for points. And when you’d have thought we would be running our socks off for a new manager.

I was underwhelmed tbh.

 

[Bishop]

My understanding of being press resistant isn't just about being able to keep possession, but being able to progress the ball through pressure, do useful things with the ball even though under pressure.

He is more high risk high reward in that regard compared to someone like Maddison for sure. But he is someone you can give the ball to under pressure and with a decent frequency he'll do useful things, bit like Kulusevski.

I think he showed last season that although he is more high risk he's also well capable of keeping it more simple when needed in a deeper role. He's not someone that will always take risks.

To me the closest player to being the opposite of press resistant in the squad would be Dragusin.

Press resistance is for me something more than ball progression. It's being able to receive the ball under pressure and come out with it on the other side. It's being able to take the ball in deep waters and move it around in such a manner that we still have the ball at the end of the move. This can be achieved by dribbling, strength or passing but the end result is the same; the ball is still in our control. Press resistance is really a function of game intelligence ie. What do I need to do right now to ensure we keep the ball.

For me Bergvall is half resistant because he certainly can beat his man with that first touch or jink, but a player who is dispossessed as often as he is and in deep positions is just not someone who can be termed as press resistant. He was arguably improving in that regard versus how often it happened last season so maybe he's on the path to completing his game enough to actually earn that tag. Here's hoping.

 

[WillWeEverBeGoodAgain]

1st time back since Sunday morning
I'm still annoyed especially as some of the ridiculous officiating yet again