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* Official Pre-Season Games Thread *

The Moonlit Knight said:
It was an impressive season, no doubt. But I agree with you. I didn't see anyone clambering for Neil Lennon to replace Redknapp for example, and we are talking about a similar situation.

Some say that AVB inherited a terrible Porto side and turned them around. The season before he took over they finished 3rd, having won 21 out of their 30 matches! They only lost 4 league games all season, and won the domestic up. The fact that winning 21 out of 30 constitutes as a disasterous season says it all to me about that league!

Also prior to the that "disaster" they had won the league four years on the bounce. Bottom line is people who claim AVB turned it all around at Porto and that Porto were in decline are some way off the mark IMO.
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Oh, I definitely agree with you that his results at Porto don't tell you much (didn't they win the league again right after he left?). But I think his reputation in the game comes more from stories than results - his "prodigy" background, obsession and talent with football analyses from a young age, his systematic vision for how football should be played and how a team should be constructed. Yeah Porto's wins were not particularly meaningful if impressive, but the hopes and fears that surround AVB are built off less tangible qualities.

That is, he's an ideologue and a purist, and that makes him look rather more modern and dare I say 'Wenger-like' than the Redknapps and Steve Bruces of the world. I'm not saying that ideologues will be more successful - after all, you could argue that Martin O'Neill demands a certain style of play wherever he goes, and GHod knows Rafa Benitez is the most systematic of them all, but I also think that any club that wants to build dynasties needs to gamble on a visionary. It's like the difference between an entrepreneur and your typical small business owner - the vast majority of entrepreneurs crash and burn far more painfully than your average Chinese take-out, but only that level of ambition and perseverance can build something worth the pain.

I think that the optimism that surrounds AVB is, as yet, unearned, but we absolutely need to give him time. He is not here to give us instant trophies - he is here to try to articulate and complete the reconception of our club that began with our youth team some years ago....to transform our helicopter into a jet in mid-air. That's difficult business even if we did have the sort of resources that would let us compete on even footing with the other clubs.
 
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saw the game, think people were making a lot more of the game than they should have. for a pre season game we werent that bad

one thing i will say though is that Kaboul is having a tough time with the high line.

I like vert though. he seems to be at least an okay defender. i wont bother seaarching who said this to me but the idea that vert is fast is a fudging lie.......he is a good footballer no doubt.....

we missed players like sandro who know how to plus holes in the defense someone like him would have helped us no end in the galaxy game.

kaboul is stupid with this defensive stance IMO, cant get over the way he uses the high line, and you cant learn that stuff in three weeks to the way that avb wants.if gallas is fit then he should start the season with vert. i miss king

and the pressing was a grade F for a high line formation i think

but all in all it wasnt nearly as bad as people made out , not for a preaseason game.
 
r.e. squad numbers

I know this might shock some but - the numbers used in pre-season are not necessarily the same as what would be submitted for the official part of the season. Why the stress?
 
africanspurs said:
saw the game, think people were making a lot more of the game than they should have. for a pre season game we werent that bad

one thing i will say though is that Kaboul is having a tough time with the high line.

I like vert though. he seems to be at least an okay defender. i wont bother seaarching who said this to me but the idea that vert is fast is a fudging lie.......he is a good footballer no doubt.....

we missed players like sandro who know how to plus holes in the defense someone like him would have helped us no end in the galaxy game.

kaboul is stupid with this defensive stance IMO, cant get over the way he uses the high line, and you cant learn that stuff in three weeks to the way that avb wants.if gallas is fit then he should start the season with vert. i miss king

and the pressing was a grade F for a high line formation i think

but all in all it wasnt nearly as bad as people made out , not for a preaseason game.
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With a high line, Gallas will get absolutely killed IMHO...I think Kaboul will be fine with both full-backs in place. First-half problem for me was not enough pressing in the midfield, Bassong at left-back caused Verts to have to cover him, which left the middle over-exposed given the lack of midfield pressing...Kaboul will be the speed in the heart of it, so...well, I think he'll be fine. Yeah, it was OK, especially considering this was off the back of free days of double sessions in high heat, so the match-fitness threshold was being poked at, and I'd expect by the middle of next week it will be getting close to OK...
 
skyfarer said:
Oh, I definitely agree with you that his results at Porto don't tell you much (didn't they win the league again right after he left?). But I think his reputation in the game comes more from stories than results - his "prodigy" background, obsession and talent with football analyses from a young age, his systematic vision for how football should be played and how a team should be constructed. Yeah Porto's wins were not particularly meaningful if impressive, but the hopes and fears that surround AVB are built off less tangible qualities.

That is, he's an ideologue and a purist, and that makes him look rather more modern and dare I say 'Wenger-like' than the Redknapps and Steve Bruces of the world. I'm not saying that ideologues will be more successful - after all, you could argue that Martin O'Neill demands a certain style of play wherever he goes, and GHod knows Rafa Benitez is the most systematic of them all, but I also think that any club that wants to build dynasties needs to gamble on a visionary. It's like the difference between an entrepreneur and your typical small business owner - the vast majority of entrepreneurs crash and burn far more painfully than your average Chinese take-out, but only that level of ambition and perseverance can build something worth the pain.

I think that the optimism that surrounds AVB is, as yet, unearned, but we absolutely need to give him time. He is not here to give us instant trophies - he is here to try to articulate and complete the reconception of our club that began with our youth team some years ago....to transform our helicopter into a jet in mid-air. That's difficult business even if we did have the sort of resources that would let us compete on even footing with the other clubs.
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Good post.

This got me thinking about something. I actually think the Porto season was impressive, because no matter which way you look at it, losing 2 key players and then going the season undefeated isn't impressive. It isn't a standard season even for the best team, it is something beyond that.

But what I was thinking, was that as you say AVB is supposed to have these ideas that set him apart. It's not simply the results that have come before him that forge his reputation, it's that he is seen to be greatly impressive within the game for a number of, sometimes intangible reasons. It's said that he really impressed Levy when they spoke about his plans for the club. And that's what made me wonder...I was listening to Talksport the other night and they were doing a 'This is Your Life' thing with David Gold. He spoke about why he appointed Avram Grant at West Ham and said that now he knows it was obviously a mistake, but he said if anyone sat in the interview with them when they were speaking to Grant, they would have hired him too. He said he was that good. Really impressive and painted a strong picture for West Ham.

So with that in mind, it shows that even strong interviewers who have the vision can still be massive failures. I wonder if it will happen with us? I think it was a superb analogy on the visionary/business owner line, so maybe there is no need to worry. It does seem like AVB has all the circumstances in place at our club to buiild what he wants to build. We do suit him so if he is going to be a success anywhere, it really should be with us. And maybe Avram Grant is another such visionary - and just needs the right circumstances and the right fit to build something really special for a club that suits him?
 
thfcsteff said:
With a high line, Gallas will get absolutely killed IMHO...I think Kaboul will be fine with both full-backs in place. First-half problem for me was not enough pressing in the midfield, Bassong at left-back caused Verts to have to cover him, which left the middle over-exposed given the lack of midfield pressing...Kaboul will be the speed in the heart of it, so...well, I think he'll be fine. Yeah, it was OK, especially considering this was off the back of free days of double sessions in high heat, so the match-fitness threshold was being poked at, and I'd expect by the middle of next week it will be getting close to OK...
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Yeah I think Bassong was actually a big problem that caused a lot of problems in the first half. We looked so much better with Benny at left back and I think a large part of it is because he actually keeps the ball well, and is incisive with his passing. We were on the back foot a lot in the first half and Bassong was not keeping the ball, so it would keep coming back at us.

I think it was really bad though, the amount of times a simple ball knocked over the top got them in behind our defence would be worrying if it wasn't pre-season. You could see the areas we were trying to start pressing in were high up the pitch, but for some reason we kept getting caught out. It shouldn't be that easy to put us in the back foot even if we are holding a high line.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Yeah I think Bassong was actually a big problem that caused a lot of problems in the first half. We looked so much better with Benny at left back and I think a large part of it is because he actually keeps the ball well, and is incisive with his passing. We were on the back foot a lot in the first half and Bassong was not keeping the ball, so it would keep coming back at us.

I think it was really bad though, the amount of times a simple ball knocked over the top got them in behind our defence would be worrying if it wasn't pre-season. You could see the areas we were trying to start pressing in were high up the pitch, but for some reason we kept getting caught out. It shouldn't be that easy to put us in the back foot even if we are holding a high line.
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this never happened under Redknapp, even in pre season games(and im no Redknapp supporter).....no matter if its pre season, good teams dont get exposed like we were in that game the other night

a lot to work on
 
thfcsteff said:
With a high line, Gallas will get absolutely killed IMHO

...I think Kaboul will be fine with both full-backs in place.

First-half problem for me was not enough pressing in the midfield, Bassong at left-back caused Verts to have to cover him, which left the middle over-exposed given the lack of midfield pressing...Kaboul will be the speed in the heart of it, so...well, I think he'll be fine. Yeah, it was OK, especially considering this was off the back of free days of double sessions in high heat, so the match-fitness threshold was being poked at, and I'd expect by the middle of next week it will be getting close to OK...
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gallas is quicker than kaboul over the first 10 to 20 / 25 yards IMO.....and thats the point at which you discourage someone from gettin away from you.

gallas is also a better reader of the game
he's better [presser
he's positionally more sound
and he is defensively better at anticipating

all this tells me the quickness of thought and intelligence makes up for whatever speed kaboul might have over gallas over the 50 to 80 yard dash

and bassong was abig issue, yes he was but so was walker...and most definately so was kaboul. there was one ball someone got put through in the first half and walker wasnt near kaboul...but more impotantly kaboul didnt make up the gap in the seperation......instead boh he and verts stood close to one another in the centre and there was only one striker for them to worry about , while some galaxy player easily ghosted into the space and just waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiited for a pass to get play at which point kaboul decides to start chasing.......think the striker was offside
 
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