Official - Defoe

[Howard Webb]

Because he's desperate to justify the French crock's transfer. And it might cost us dearly if it carries on more.

you dont think Saha has done well? I tend to agree with the Defoe analysis that hes limited but knows where the net is. Saha offered us so much work yesterday, had a superb game. Should have scored but Ade got in the way for example, but all round was very good. Defoe should have come on earlier of course, but to say Saha isnt flying with confidence right now seems incorrect. Hes scored a few already.

The problem isnt that Saha is on the pitch because hes doing really well considering his age, the problem is we dont have a plan B tactically. We blitz teams, then we fold.

 

[ArcspacE]

Sorry, Howard but you must have watched a different one - 'superb' game? Poor first touch and very little support for Ade. Got lost and faded as the game progressed

He's done extremely little in the last few games. Is he going to live off that Saudi Sportswashing Machine performance much like Bentley did initially from the 4:4 volley? Even of we give him the benefit of the doubt from the Arsenal game (team collapse) yesterday was simply ordinary. Didn't trouble their keeper once. Defoe should have started this game and Arry got it mighty wrong any way we look at it

 

[indianspur]

you dont think Saha has done well? I tend to agree with the Defoe analysis that hes limited but knows where the net is. Saha offered us so much work yesterday, had a superb game. Should have scored but Ade got in the way for example, but all round was very good. Defoe should have come on earlier of course, but to say Saha isnt flying with confidence right now seems incorrect. Hes scored a few already.

The problem isnt that Saha is on the pitch because hes doing really well considering his age, the problem is we dont have a plan B tactically. We blitz teams, then we fold.

got to agree

 

[totman]

forget about what GB thinks, more important is why Redknapp is refusing to have more faith in Defoe. Very strange

I addressed this in the post before my reply to GB

 

[Howard Webb]

Sorry, Howard but you must have watched a different one - 'superb' game? Poor first touch and very little support for Ade. Got lost and faded as the game progressed

He's done extremely little in the last few games. Is he going to live off that Saudi Sportswashing Machine performance much like Bentley did initially from the 4:4 volley? Even of we give him the benefit of the doubt from the Arsenal game (team collapse) yesterday was simply ordinary. Didn't trouble their keeper once. Defoe should have started this game and Arry got it mighty wrong any way we look at it

No, i think youre picking out spacegoats where its difficult. That team played very well yesterday, and didnt have an answer to essentially out of the blue being 2-0 down. The momentum was ours, we owned the midfield and it seemed like a matter of time. But that Wayne Rooney cant be left alone!

I would have brought Defoe on probably 15 minutes earlier but hes limited in the sense that we play best when building attacks. Defoe will just shoot for goal, hes lethal! But dont ask him to contribute too much tactically. Saha offers us a different approach which I think suits our style better. Pav couldnt do it either, its a tough ask for any player to play the game Saha did yesterday, but hes getting results.

 

[mick cooper]

No, i think youre picking out spacegoats where its difficult. That team played very well yesterday, and didnt have an answer to essentially out of the blue being 2-0 down. The momentum was ours, we owned the midfield and it seemed like a matter of time. But that Wayne Rooney cant be left alone!

I would have brought Defoe on probably 15 minutes earlier but hes limited in the sense that we play best when building attacks. Defoe will just shoot for goal, hes lethal! But dont ask him to contribute too much tactically. Saha offers us a different approach which I think suits our style better. Pav couldnt do it either, its a tough ask for any player to play the game Saha did yesterday, but hes getting results.

To what? He did nothing of value, to my recollection. His shots at goal were tame and without threat, and when faced with a virtually open goal, simply smacked the ball straight at our player. In the Goon game he also contributed nothing of value.

Why is there this constant B/S that every other strikers movement is better than Defoes, their link up play is supposed to be better and now more tactical options are open with them, despite the fact that the latest messiah can't run or shoot, or get a head on the ball.

Sorry, I have seen nothing to evidence your position. I feel mildly ashamed that I let the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game sway my judgement as well, his 2 goals in that I think masked a lot of nothing.

 

[ArcspacE]

No, i think youre picking out spacegoats where its difficult. That team played very well yesterday, and didnt have an answer to essentially out of the blue being 2-0 down. The momentum was ours, we owned the midfield and it seemed like a matter of time. But that Wayne Rooney cant be left alone!

Yes of course, we looked solid up until the 2nd goal but in my opinion Saha was by and large poor. So was Ade although he still looked to threaten with the build up. In any case - I think Arry got it terribly wrong to leave JD out.

 

[Howard Webb]

To what? He did nothing of value, to my recollection. His shots at goal were tame and without threat, and when faced with a virtually open goal, simply smacked the ball straight at our player. In the Goon game he also contributed nothing of value.

Why is there this constant B/S that every other strikers movement is better than Defoes, their link up play is supposed to be better and now more tactical options are open with them, despite the fact that the latest messiah can't run or shoot, or get a head on the ball.

Sorry, I have seen nothing to evidence your position. I feel mildly ashamed that I let the Saudi Sportswashing Machine game sway my judgement as well, his 2 goals in that I think masked a lot of nothing.

the difference for me is quite marked, and I have to hold my hands up to that fact that Saha has only been here a few weeks. But the obvious tactical advantage Defoe used to have is blistering pace and lethal finishing, rarely in evidence now. Most defences have worked him out, they show him goalside and wait for the attack to collapse because he is rarely shown the ball by the marking player. He depends on a perfect lighting pass to disect the defence, but we dont play that way because its rare that Bale or Lennon will see him bounding down the channel with them, where Ade will happily head for the corner flag - because Defoe needs it on a plate. In which case hes the best around. Now, in contrast to Saha who does play alot closer to the channel and plays facing our goal alot of the time, Defoe is relying on weak centre halfs and perfect supply. Saha will drop and feed Modric, and has the ability to turn at defending players and move into space. Defoe is not deft at all. But in my opinion, Sahas approach will get him picked because hes a team player. It may not have paid off yesterday in goals but we are flowing better now than we did early in the season. I guess time will tell.

 

[colin fishwick]

Could not disagree more. Saha and Ade need it on a plate. Defoe can and does make his own goals, most of his goals come from outside the box.

He is easily the most dynamic forward we have. Total myth that his build up play is no good. Stats showed he lost the ball the least of ANY striker in the PL 2 years in a row.

He also works harder than the others, closes down their defenders more, he and Lennon are extremely good at that.

The negatives with Defoe are : He can get out muscled too much and he does not get in the game enough. He is a skillful footballer however who is suited to a passing game.

 

[SUIYHA]

8 Premier League starts
9 Premier League goals

To put that into perspective, our top PL scorers, Adebayor and Bale, have 10 goals from triple the number of starts.

 

[mick cooper]

the difference for me is quite marked, and I have to hold my hands up to that fact that Saha has only been here a few weeks. But the obvious tactical advantage Defoe used to have is blistering pace and lethal finishing, rarely in evidence now. Most defences have worked him out, they show him goalside and wait for the attack to collapse because he is rarely shown the ball by the marking player. He depends on a perfect lighting pass to disect the defence, but we dont play that way because its rare that Bale or Lennon will see him bounding down the channel with them, where Ade will happily head for the corner flag - because Defoe needs it on a plate. In which case hes the best around. Now, in contrast to Saha who does play alot closer to the channel and plays facing our goal alot of the time, Defoe is relying on weak centre halfs and perfect supply. Saha will drop and feed Modric, and has the ability to turn at defending players and move into space. Defoe is not deft at all. But in my opinion, Sahas approach will get him picked because hes a team player. It may not have paid off yesterday in goals but we are flowing better now than we did early in the season. I guess time will tell.

Do you write a lot of fiction, or do you really believe this stuff?

football isn't chess, no-one marks lines down the pitch and calls them channels, channels move and eb and flow in the game (the players run around you know) and Saha has no movement, because he's fecked. He doesn't "drop to feed Modric" - he just can't keep up with play.

Did Defoe have his goal yesterday on a plate, mmmm no he didn't, did he?

Stop feeding yourself this pseudo tactical hogwash in an effort to substantiate the myths you are trying to create, it might fool a 13 year old, but I have played enough football in my life and watched enough games to know that you just spouted a load of tosh.

 

[Howard Webb]

Do you write a lot of fiction, or do you really believe this stuff?

football isn't chess, no-one marks lines down the pitch and calls them channels, channels move and eb and flow in the game (the players run around you know) and Saha has no movement, because he's fecked. He doesn't "drop to feed Modric" - he just can't keep up with play.

Did Defoe have his goal yesterday on a plate, mmmm no he didn't, did he?

Stop feeding yourself this pseudo tactical hogwash in an effort to substantiate the myths you are trying to create, it might fool a 13 year old, but I have played enough football in my life and watched enough games to know that you just spouted a load of tosh.

I never said it was strict did I? Channels are not as you say I describe them, but to say they dont even exist is a bit strong no? Ive also played alot of football and I can tell a player whos looking to steal a yard, as opposed to a player who holds the ball up in relation to players around him and builds from areas of strength.

You asked me to describe the differences, and I did. If you dont like it, thats fine!

also, im sorry if its not perfect. im not sodding Bill Nic.

 

[1882]

Could not disagree more. Saha and Ade need it on a plate. Defoe can and does make his own goals, most of his goals come from outside the box.

I may have been watching a different game, but i'm PRETTY sure Bale 'put it on a fudging massive dinner plate' for defoe up at Emirates Marketing Project, and look what happened...
I don't care that he's short (and that CROUCH may have reached it) he didn't turn short overnight, he KNOWS his limitations, fudging ADAPT AND ANTICIPATE THE fudging BALL...

Nothing against him, but his Football Focus interview (and his subsequent goal yesterday) smacks of someone who assumes he's is owed a place, and will kick up a fudging subtle stink when he's dropped...

 

[ArcspacE]

and will kick up a fudging subtle stink when he's dropped...

He does it consistently and that is undeniable

However - based on form and nothing else - he deserved to play in the last 2 games.

 

[mick cooper]

I never said it was strict did I? Channels are not as you say I describe them, but to say they dont even exist is a bit strong no? Ive also played alot of football and I can tell a player whos looking to steal a yard, as opposed to a player who holds the ball up in relation to players around him and builds from areas of strength.

You asked me to describe the differences, and I did. If you dont like it, thats fine!

also, im sorry if its not perfect. im not sodding Bill Nic.

sorry, but your reasons just don't make sense, given the attributes of the 2 players. I'm not ashamed to be a supporter of Defoes elevation to a starting place, he's a goalscorer, and we just lost a game we dominated, because they put away the 3 decent chances they got and we put away 1, which defoe chiselled out for himself.

 

[mick cooper]

I may have been watching a different game, but i'm PRETTY sure Bale 'put it on a fudging massive dinner plate' for defoe up at Emirates Marketing Project, and look what happened...
I don't care that he's short (and that CROUCH may have reached it) he didn't turn short overnight, he KNOWS his limitations, fudging ADAPT AND ANTICIPATE THE fudging BALL...

Nothing against him, but his Football Focus interview (and his subsequent goal yesterday) smacks of someone who assumes he's is owed a place, and will kick up a fudging subtle stink when he's dropped...

and you would be wrong then
IMO

 

[Spursalot]

8 Premier League starts
9 Premier League goals

To put that into perspective, our top PL scorers, Adebayor and Bale, have 10 goals from triple the number of starts.

Defoe scores goals, this is undeniable. However he just doesn't offer the same kind of play as ade/saha/vdv.

He scored against man united yes, but how long was he on for? It was the first time i think he had touched the ball since coming on, in about ten minutes. It also was only due to a lax pass from giggs due to them being 3-0 up and confident the game was already won.


When Defoe starts he just doesn't offer the same kind of attacking threat as when he comes on late as a sub. He is a good player to bring on late to stretch the opposition defence and maybe get a late winner.

 

[rosenthal]

8 Premier League starts
9 Premier League goals

To put that into perspective, our top PL scorers, Adebayor and Bale, have 10 goals from triple the number of starts.

Minutes played per goal:

Berbatov - 69 min.
Balotelli - 82 min.
Van Persie - 93 min.
Dzeko - 95 min.
Defoe - 103 min.
Rooney - 106 min.
Ba - 113 min.
Aguero - 115 min.
Aiyegbeni - 118 min.
Hernandez - 132 min.
Helguson - 142 min.
Fletcher - 158 min.
Holt - 160 min.
Lampard - 169 min.
Klasnic - 171 min.
Sturridge - 177 min.
Odemwingie - 183 min.
Adebayor - 192 min.
Graham - 198 min.
Dempsey - 202 min.
Bent - 206 min.
Morison - 212 min.
Zamora - 218 min.
Bale - 222 min.
van der Vaart - 222 min.
Pilkington - 231 min.
Crouch - 267 min.
Sinclair - 316 min.
Saha - 375 min.

 

[Spursalot]

If you alter that table to minutes played per goals + assists i might actually pay attention to it.

 

[Crab.C.Nesbitt]

Defoe scores goals, this is undeniable. However he just doesn't offer the same kind of play as ade/saha/vdv.

He scored against man united yes, but how long was he on for? It was the first time i think he had touched the ball since coming on, in about ten minutes. It also was only due to a lax pass from giggs due to them being 3-0 up and confident the game was already won.


When Defoe starts he just doesn't offer the same kind of attacking threat as when he comes on late as a sub. He is a good player to bring on late to stretch the opposition defence and maybe get a late winner.

Errr sorry wtf are you talking about when you say "he scored against man u but how long was he on for? He came on in about the 80th minute and within 7 mins of coming on he had scored. What the hell do you want from a player coming off the bench...most players would take some time to get into the flow of the game! If Harry had made his substitutions earlier (say after they scored their second goal) then we might well have snatched a draw or even a win, but to criticise Defoe in this game is frankly unbelievable flimflam he did everything that could reasonably be asked of a player coming on for a ten minute cameo when we were already 3 goals down