Next Spurs Manager v.2

[DubaiSpur]

Pochettino had less than no resources at Espanyol. His spending at Southampton has been relatively high perhaps, but nothing out of the ordinary. I listed the mid-table and lower-half teams that had spent £20m or more previously, it's not uncommon.

Comparably I think Rafa's spending at Liverpool was considerable. I don't think there were many clubs out of the top 4 that had a higher net spend or a bigger wage budget. Liverpool got themselves into serious financial problems under Benitez didn't they? Benitez has had a solid £25m net spend in his first season at Napoli, a season when they sold Cavani of course, but signed a ton of players. And they finished second the season before he came, not sure how big an achievement it is to then have a bigger net spend than your competitors (I think) and finish third? At the very least the criticism you aim at Pochettino should be valid here too.

And, as said previously, Pochettino's Southampton beat City, Chelsea and Liverpool last season. He clearly qualifies in that last of your criteria.

Pochettino didn't have much to play with at Espanyol, true. Yet he left the club hovering just above the relegation zone at the time of his sacking, while his successor (Javier Aguirre) has them comfortably in mid-table despite having a net transfer spend of minus nine million euros, if I remember correctly. So whatever limitations Pochettino had apply to Aguirre as well, yet the latter seems far more successful than the former.

Yes, Rafa spent quite a bit at Liverpool: if I remember correctly their net spend averaged around 15-20 million pounds every season. Yet, they were also CL participants for all those seasons, which points to where the extra revenue came from: and while they did get into financial trouble when he was at the helm, I believe that had far more to do with Hicks and Gillett's various deals than it did with his spending. And whatever he did spend at Liverpool pales in comparison to his feats with Valencia: breaking the Barca-Madrid duopoly with the resources he had was incredible, more so when he did it twice in a row. Pochettino lacks comparable over-achievement: his spending has been relatively high, and he has finished in an upper mid-table position. There has been nothing spectacular at St.Mary's, merely a conformity to expectations.

As for the last point, hmm, point accepted. Still, I can't shake the feeling that when you lose 3-2 to Tim Sherwood's tactically anarchic Spurs twice in a row, alongside regular 3 goal losses to City, Liverpool and Arsenal (this season), then you're not quite a giant-killer: at least, not on the same level as Rafa Benitez (of Istanbul fame) and LvG (with his 1995 Ajax side).

 

[Robbo]

Whoever it is that's going to take over from Sherwood, I just pray he's installed as quickly as possible in order to persuade our best players to stay.

If we leave the decision too late, I fear an exodus of quality players that doesn't want another season with Timmeh. It's a potential disaster for the club, with several years of mid table obscurity until we then hopefully rebuild a proper squad.

Nightmare scenario.

 

[braineclipse]

Pochettino didn't have much to play with at Espanyol, true. Yet he left the club hovering just above the relegation zone at the time of his sacking, while his successor (Javier Aguirre) has them comfortably in mid-table despite having a net transfer spend of minus nine million euros, if I remember correctly. So whatever limitations Pochettino had apply to Aguirre as well, yet the latter seems far more successful than the former.

Yes, Rafa spent quite a bit at Liverpool: if I remember correctly their net spend averaged around 15-20 million pounds every season. Yet, they were also CL participants for all those seasons, which points to where the extra revenue came from: and while they did get into financial trouble when he was at the helm, I believe that had far more to do with Hicks and Gillett's various deals than it did with his spending. And whatever he did spend at Liverpool pales in comparison to his feats with Valencia: breaking the Barca-Madrid duopoly with the resources he had was incredible, more so when he did it twice in a row. Pochettino lacks comparable over-achievement: his spending has been relatively high, and he has finished in an upper mid-table position. There has been nothing spectacular at St.Mary's, merely a conformity to expectations.

As for the last point, hmm, point accepted. Still, I can't shake the feeling that when you lose 3-2 to Tim Sherwood's tactically anarchic Spurs twice in a row, alongside regular 3 goal losses to City, Liverpool and Arsenal (this season), then you're not quite a giant-killer: at least, not on the same level as Rafa Benitez (of Istanbul fame) and LvG (with his 1995 Ajax side).

He left on mutual consent. Did you see the quotes about him I posted previously in the thread? I don't quite see how what you're saying about his time at Espanyol is in concordance with what people were saying about him then. If you follow Spanish football closely I will take your word for it, but it seems a lot like it's just the results and outcome you're looking at. Whereas well informed people have written very complimentary things about him.

Benitez at Valencia is in deed impressive. Outstanding I would say. Remember he's way further into his career too though so there should be more success stories. I agree with you that Benitez is a good candidate, as I've said before. I don't personally enjoy his style of football, his face or the fact that he puts 3 sugars in his coffee But I can accept that he's a much more proven manager than all candidates we have been realistically linked to apart from LvG. I can even accept that he should perhaps be our second choice after LvG based on the evidence available to us.

I'm more arguing the case for Pochettino compared to the other names you had clearly ahead of him after LvG and Rafa.

I find it a bit strange how easy people think it is for Southampton to be where they are. Their spending is comparable to that of many other teams in the league and getting to where they are now in their second PL season and Pochettino's first full season is impressive. They've met their ambitious goals, whilst playing attractive football. Any higher in the table would be close to miraculous imo.

 

[braineclipse]

Whoever it is that's going to take over from Sherwood, I just pray he's installed as quickly as possible in order to persuade our best players to stay.

If we leave the decision too late, I fear an exodus of quality players that doesn't want another season with Timmeh. It's a potential disaster for the club, with several years of mid table obscurity until we then hopefully rebuild a proper squad.

Nightmare scenario.

Agreed.

Should be done before June imo.

 

[DubaiSpur]

He left on mutual consent. Did you see the quotes about him I posted previously in the thread? I don't quite see how what you're saying about his time at Espanyol is in concordance with what people were saying about him then. If you follow Spanish football closely I will take your word for it, but it seems a lot like it's just the results and outcome you're looking at. Whereas well informed people have written very complimentary things about him.

Benitez at Valencia is in deed impressive. Outstanding I would say. Remember he's way further into his career too though so there should be more success stories. I agree with you that Benitez is a good candidate, as I've said before. I don't personally enjoy his style of football, his face or the fact that he puts 3 sugars in his coffee But I can accept that he's a much more proven manager than all candidates we have been realistically linked to apart from LvG. I can even accept that he should perhaps be our second choice after LvG based on the evidence available to us.

I'm more arguing the case for Pochettino compared to the other names you had clearly ahead of him after LvG and Rafa.

I find it a bit strange how easy people think it is for Southampton to be where they are. Their spending is comparable to that of many other teams in the league and getting to where they are now in their second PL season and Pochettino's first full season is impressive. They've met their ambitious goals, whilst playing attractive football. Any higher in the table would be close to miraculous imo.

I haven't seen any quotes you may have posted, because I have developed an unhealthy habit of popping in, shouting random words and popping our again. I'll go back and see if I can find them. I don't follow Spanish football much: indeed, my main exposure to it comes from Sid Lowe's weekly column in the Guardian and the occasional Real Betis game (have a soft spot for them, which has certainly not helped me this season). However, a glance at Espanyol's position when Pochettino left and its position now shows a marked improvement: what the extenuating factors are for this (given that Aguirre also has a similarly straitened budget to work with) I don't know, but it does suggest that at the very least defensive fragility has followed Pochettino around, from Espanyol to Southampton, which would make me nervous given our present travails.

In regards to Southampton, I suppose the under-rating of their feats is because they were until recently owned by a billionaire (and are now owned by his daughter, if I remember correctly). With that backing, they've bought Gaston Ramirez, Dejan Lovren, Victor Wanyama and Pablo Osvaldo, all of which has given them a negative transfer spend and thus the scorn of some of us Spurs fans, who have grown increasingly used to seeing our club perpetually in the black and still competing at the top of the league. In addition to that, there have been quite a few well-managed, competitive sides coming up from the Championship recently, so that diminishes the effect of Southampton's current position on the mentality of the average Joe. And after all that over-achievement (by your reckoning), the point I guess I'm trying to make is that they're still only 8th: true, anything above that might be miraculous, but we need miraculous, not stolidly average or somewhat above average. LvG, Rafa, Conte and the rest (FdB included, I suppose) have done miraculous things. Southampton have been merely satisfactorily competitive. We need more, imo. Much more. And the other candidates can provide that to us. I doubt Poch can, at least currently.

 

[braineclipse]

I haven't seen any quotes you may have posted, because I have developed an unhealthy habit of popping in, shouting random words and popping our again. I'll go back and see if I can find them. I don't follow Spanish football much: indeed, my main exposure to it comes from Sid Lowe's weekly column in the Guardian and the occasional Real Betis game (have a soft spot for them, which has certainly not helped me this season). However, a glance at Espanyol's position when Pochettino left and its position now shows a marked improvement: what the extenuating factors are for this (given that Aguirre also has a similarly straitened budget to work with) I don't know, but it does suggest that at the very least defensive fragility has followed Pochettino around, from Espanyol to Southampton, which would make me nervous given our present travails.

In regards to Southampton, I suppose the under-rating of their feats is because they were until recently owned by a billionaire (and are now owned by his daughter, if I remember correctly). With that backing, they've bought Gaston Ramirez, Dejan Lovren, Victor Wanyama and Pablo Osvaldo, all of which has given them a negative transfer spend and thus the scorn of some of us Spurs fans, who have grown increasingly used to seeing our club perpetually in the black and still competing at the top of the league. In addition to that, there have been quite a few well-managed, competitive sides coming up from the Championship recently, so that diminishes the effect of Southampton's current position on the mentality of the average Joe. And after all that over-achievement (by your reckoning), the point I guess I'm trying to make is that they're still only 8th: true, anything above that might be miraculous, but we need miraculous, not stolidly average or somewhat above average. LvG, Rafa, Conte and the rest (FdB included, I suppose) have done miraculous things. Southampton have been merely satisfactorily competitive. We need more, imo. Much more. And the other candidates can provide that to us. I doubt Poch can, at least currently.

Link to my post on Pochettino at Espanyol:

http://www.glory-glory.co.uk/showthread.php/5606-Next-Spurs-Manager-v-2?p=545299&viewfull=1#post545299

I think some of those quotes that I copy-pasted in there are worth paying attention to.

I end up repeating myself a lot here, but look up the net transfer spends for clubs like Norwich, Swansea, Cardiff, Palace etc. It's not insignificant. Pochettino and Southampton have succeeded where others have failed. He's spent a bit more money than some other clubs, but he's not been massively outspending others. Most certainly not when relatively comparing him to Conte at Juventus! Or, imo, to Benitez at Napoli. Roma's had a rather large net transfer profit this season and overtaken Napoli. Inter and Milan have fallen behind, it's not like Benitez has overtaken them while they were strong. I don't see how you can say that Pochettino is just doing what he should be doing at Southampton and then say that Benitez is doing really well at Napoli.

I agree that winning the title with Valencia looks a bit miraculous. Certainly the CL win with Liverpool was super impressive. But in the league Benitez didn't really do much better than Houllier before him did he? And I don't think he consistently over performed compared to money spent.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Just read in the Guardian that the Dutch FA have given LVG till 7 May to sort his future, then he's got to be fully focused on Holland till mid-July.

So we should know one way or the other in the next 3 weeks.

 

[braineclipse]

Just read in the Guardian that the Dutch FA have given LVG till 7 May to sort his future, then he's got to be fully focused on Holland till mid-July.

So we should know one way or the other in the next 3 weeks.

Good news.

Can't see United leaving it until after the World Cup and I can't see LvG wishing to leave it that late either.

 

[chancer]

There is not enough of a difference between Pochettino's record/experience/CV and Sherwood's record/experience/CV for one to be considered a "serious candidate" and the other to be considered a "lol, not even on the long list candidate."

It would be ok if people were saying Poch should be higher on our list than Sherwood. I could see the logic in that. But that's not what people are saying: they are saying Poch should be high on the list (and maybe even #1 for some people if our Galactico candidates don't come) while Sherwood shouldn't even be on that list in the first place. Not even on it! That does not make sense.

Wiki tells me Poch has 57 games for SCBC, Sherwood 25 for Spurs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauricio_Pochettino
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Sherwood

Is that really any kind of difference? Really? Enough that one guy is a "serious candidate for serious people to seriously consider" and the other a "joker candidate lol gilet Tactical Timbo lolz". Really? I see only degrees of difference there, not substantive ones.

People can cite Poch's time at Espanyol, which I 100% agree counts as extra experience. No argument from me AT ALL about that. It's a fact. But my point is that when you weigh up all the pro's and con's of appointing one not the other, the difference between the two - in a holistic, rounded, all-things-considered sense - is really not that great:

1. Isn't PL/English experience the thing people always cite as crucial? In that regard alone we have to mark down Poch's experience advantage from his time at Espanyol. I do not quibble that he has it, merely that it's marked down a small bit by it not being PL.

2. It's a bit ironic that Espanyol appointed someone with zero coaching experience who people now want for Spurs, and yet the idea of Spurs doing the same is ridiculous. Really, the difference between the two is simply the whim of whoever was Espanyol President at that time taking a punt on Poch. If he didn't do that, we wouldn't be having this conversation now.

3. If people cite Espanyol as experience, then why not cite Sherwood's 5 years at Spurs as experience too, albeit at a lower level? I agree 100% that development coach + boardroom/xfer panel experience is not the same as head coach experience, but again my point is it narrows the gap in the argument between the two men.

4. Poch's win rate at Espanyol was 33%. Again, I respect the experience, but we have to just put a little question mark there. We know Sherwood's winrate at Spurs is good, although I accept the sample is too small to really cite in my argument.

5. Poch got sacked from that job with his team in relegation trouble. Again, no shame in being sacked, and by all accounts it was a tough situation off the pitch at the time. But still, it is a small black mark.

6. Does Sherwood's 20 years/500 games in English football as a player and Poch's 0 games make at least some difference in the experience argument?

7. Espanyol was Poch's club from his playing days. We often see in these situations a sentiment bounce/extended honeymoon because the player was so loved. Again, doesn't this at least somewhat lessen the argument that he has this mystical "experience" thing? It was kind of a special situation, not a vanilla one.

8. Doesn't Sherwood being in place/knowing Spurs and Poch not again at least somewhat narrow the gap in suitability? Poch would be upheaval, Sherwood would just continue as is. When we consider a new manager, the relative risks of those two scenarios must come into it.

9. This is a bit of a silly point, but just to say that Sherwood does have 4 games of Euro experience that Poch doesn't! Ok, that's nothing, but again my argument is that all these tiny little things narrow the gap, if only by a smidgeon.

10. Pre-season and transfer money: Poch has had both, Sherwood neither. Poch's signings have been patchy and not cheap. By all accounts the only player we really know Sherwood pushed for was Eriksen, our one true success this season.

11. Youth. Poch has had the advantage of several terrific SCBC players coming through the academy to 1st team. Nothing to do with him. Sherwood has actually brought through players from youth to first team himself.

12. Won't Poch still be available in 12 months? Are a team bigger than Spurs likely to come in for him if Sherwood bombs? What makes the appointment so compelling now? Whereas if Sherwood goes now, we'll never know what might have been.

13. Language. I accept that Poch speaks better English than Tim.

Here is my point: if you put one on your long list, you have to put the other. When you take all the little additions and subtractions above, the idea that one is deserving of being in consideration and the other not even deserving of a discussion really does not make sense.

 

[Cotswold]

Whoever it is that's going to take over from Sherwood, I just pray he's installed as quickly as possible in order to persuade our best players to stay.

If we leave the decision too late, I fear an exodus of quality players that doesn't want another season with Timmeh. It's a potential disaster for the club, with several years of mid table obscurity until we then hopefully rebuild a proper squad.

Nightmare scenario.

Fully agree with this.
I suspect that as soon as it is mathematically impossible for us to finish 4th, in other words after our next defeat, Timmy will be sacked.
It is conceivable that they'll wait until the week after the season ends, but as we all know, Levy isn't slow to sack managers and i suspect that if Timmy is going, Levy will just get on with it. the problem Levy is going to have is that if we win our remaining games, Sherwood is going to bleat-on about how he has a better win record than any spurs manager in X years and how he's taken us, despite the loss of our best player and a pretty horrific injury list, to one of our best points tallys in recent years, yadda-yadda-yadda. Not great PR in our search for a new manager to have that being banded about.

 

[Seedy Ron]

10. Pre-season and transfer money: Poch has had both, Sherwood neither. Poch's signings have been patchy and not cheap. By all accounts the only player we really know Sherwood pushed for was Eriksen, our one true success this season.

Levy did offer to buy for Sherwood in the winter window, Tim said we didn't need anything. So he did have a chance to spend a few quid if he'd wanted to.

Has Tim got his pro-license yet? (Genuine question).

13. Language. I accept that Poch speaks better English than Tim.

:lol:

Saying that I'm not convinced of Poch either, was hoping for a bigger beast really.

 

[Denmark Spur]

Tottenham weigh up gamble on David Moyes

Scot still impresses Daniel Levy despite failure at Manchester United

Tom Collomosse

24 April 2014

David Moyes is emerging as a contender to become Tottenham’s next manager but senior figures at the club are divided over his possible appointment following his dismal short reign at Manchester United.

Standard Sport understands chairman Daniel Levy remains a keen admirer of the 50-year-old Scot, having considered him to replace Harry Redknapp in 2012 before opting for Andre Villas-Boas.

Moyes was sacked by United on Tuesday after 10 months in charge at Old Trafford but is thought to be open to a quick return to management in a bid to restore his damaged reputation.

Spurs will replace Tim Sherwood this summer and are weighing up their options. A key factor is the financial implications of any appointment, with the club pressing ahead in their plans to build a new stadium.

Louis van Gaal has been considered the front-runner for some time and Spurs would not have to pay any compensation to sign the Dutchman because he will be a free agent after the World Cup when his contract ends with Holland.

However, it is thought Van Gaal would command a much bigger salary than Moyes and Spurs are mindful of making a large financial commitment at a time when stadium expansion costs will rise considerably.

Moyes has worked within a limited budget at Everton and has a track record prior to his time at United of extracting excellent value from the transfer market. Once his compensation package is agreed with United, the Scot will be available to join another club for nothing.

Van Gaal’s CV is striking but he is considered an egotistical character by many withing the game and the dignity with which Moyes conducted himself throughout his ordeal at Old Trafford has impressed some in north London.

There is also a concern at Spurs that they are behind United in the pecking order of selecting a new manager — Van Gaal would prefer a move to the Premier League champions and Spurs do not want to be kept waiting or be seen as a back-up option to prospective candidates.

Bookmakers this morning slashed the odds on Moyes ending up at White Hart Lane. However, it is believed that there is not universal support for a pursuit of Moyes among the Tottenham hierarchy. Some are concerned that he was unable to keep United in the top four, while Roberto Martinez’s impressive first season at Goodison Park has cast further doubt on Moyes’s own ability to deliver Champions League football.

There are also reservations over Moyes’s conservative brand of football, which attracted much criticism at United. Other possible alternatives include Southampton boss Mauricio Pochettino, who has just one year left on his current deal, and Rafa Benitez, who is thought to be keen on returning to the Premier League and is currently stalling over signing a new deal at Napoli.

Martinez offered words of support for Moyes. “There has been a lot of talk over the matter,” he said.

“It is not a nice situation when a manager loses his job. We know Moyes will look forward to the next football chapter and the next experience.

“He is a strong man with a winning mentality and I am sure he will bounce back straight away.

“He has ensured he will be ready to get into another job as quick as he can. He won’t have the lack of opportunities.”

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/tottenham-weigh-up-gamble-on-david-moyes-9281480.html

 

[indianspur]

please please Moyes to West Spam or Saudi Sportswashing Machine.........just stay away from WHL

 

[Cotswold]

Tottenham weigh up gamble on David Moyes

Scot still impresses Daniel Levy despite failure at Manchester United

Tom Collomosse

24 April 2014

David Moyes is emerging as a contender to become Tottenham’s next manager but senior figures at the club are divided over his possible appointment following his dismal short reign at Manchester United.

Standard Sport understands chairman Daniel Levy remains a keen admirer of the 50-year-old Scot, having considered him to replace Harry Redknapp in 2012 before opting for Andre Villas-Boas.

Moyes was sacked by United on Tuesday after 10 months in charge at Old Trafford but is thought to be open to a quick return to management in a bid to restore his damaged reputation.

Spurs will replace Tim Sherwood this summer and are weighing up their options. A key factor is the financial implications of any appointment, with the club pressing ahead in their plans to build a new stadium.

Louis van Gaal has been considered the front-runner for some time and Spurs would not have to pay any compensation to sign the Dutchman because he will be a free agent after the World Cup when his contract ends with Holland.

However, it is thought Van Gaal would command a much bigger salary than Moyes and Spurs are mindful of making a large financial commitment at a time when stadium expansion costs will rise considerably.

Moyes has worked within a limited budget at Everton and has a track record prior to his time at United of extracting excellent value from the transfer market. Once his compensation package is agreed with United, the Scot will be available to join another club for nothing.

Van Gaal’s CV is striking but he is considered an egotistical character by many withing the game and the dignity with which Moyes conducted himself throughout his ordeal at Old Trafford has impressed some in north London.

There is also a concern at Spurs that they are behind United in the pecking order of selecting a new manager — Van Gaal would prefer a move to the Premier League champions and Spurs do not want to be kept waiting or be seen as a back-up option to prospective candidates.

Bookmakers this morning slashed the odds on Moyes ending up at White Hart Lane. However, it is believed that there is not universal support for a pursuit of Moyes among the Tottenham hierarchy. Some are concerned that he was unable to keep United in the top four, while Roberto Martinez’s impressive first season at Goodison Park has cast further doubt on Moyes’s own ability to deliver Champions League football.

There are also reservations over Moyes’s conservative brand of football, which attracted much criticism at United. Other possible alternatives include Southampton boss Mauricio Pochettino, who has just one year left on his current deal, and Rafa Benitez, who is thought to be keen on returning to the Premier League and is currently stalling over signing a new deal at Napoli.

Martinez offered words of support for Moyes. “There has been a lot of talk over the matter,” he said.

“It is not a nice situation when a manager loses his job. We know Moyes will look forward to the next football chapter and the next experience.

“He is a strong man with a winning mentality and I am sure he will bounce back straight away.

“He has ensured he will be ready to get into another job as quick as he can. He won’t have the lack of opportunities.”

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/tottenham-weigh-up-gamble-on-david-moyes-9281480.html

I think Moyes spent many years with people lauding him for making Everton a top 6 team, and in recent years he had them finishing above Liverpool - all very admirable.
But given Martinez has come in and taken them higher, pushing for 4th and playing some great football, those who used to rate Moyes based on his time at Everton are probably, surely, now having second thoughts.
Moyes' time at United has also brought into question his ability to deal with big names/players.
At Everton he was the big fish in what was deemed a small pond. At United he looked like a minnow in the sea. I will despair if Levy recruits him.

 

[braineclipse]

There is not enough of a difference between Pochettino's record/experience/CV and Sherwood's record/experience/CV for one to be considered a "serious candidate" and the other to be considered a "lol, not even on the long list candidate."

It would be ok if people were saying Poch should be higher on our list than Sherwood. I could see the logic in that. But that's not what people are saying: they are saying Poch should be high on the list (and maybe even #1 for some people if our Galactico candidates don't come) while Sherwood shouldn't even be on that list in the first place. Not even on it! That does not make sense.

Wiki tells me Poch has 57 games for SCBC, Sherwood 25 for Spurs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauricio_Pochettino
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Sherwood

Is that really any kind of difference? Really? Enough that one guy is a "serious candidate for serious people to seriously consider" and the other a "joker candidate lol gilet Tactical Timbo lolz". Really? I see only degrees of difference there, not substantive ones.

People can cite Poch's time at Espanyol, which I 100% agree counts as extra experience. No argument from me AT ALL about that. It's a fact. But my point is that when you weigh up all the pro's and con's of appointing one not the other, the difference between the two - in a holistic, rounded, all-things-considered sense - is really not that great:

1. Isn't PL/English experience the thing people always cite as crucial? In that regard alone we have to mark down Poch's experience advantage from his time at Espanyol. I do not quibble that he has it, merely that it's marked down a small bit by it not being PL.

2. It's a bit ironic that Espanyol appointed someone with zero coaching experience who people now want for Spurs, and yet the idea of Spurs doing the same is ridiculous. Really, the difference between the two is simply the whim of whoever was Espanyol President at that time taking a punt on Poch. If he didn't do that, we wouldn't be having this conversation now.

3. If people cite Espanyol as experience, then why not cite Sherwood's 5 years at Spurs as experience too, albeit at a lower level? I agree 100% that development coach + boardroom/xfer panel experience is not the same as head coach experience, but again my point is it narrows the gap in the argument between the two men.

4. Poch's win rate at Espanyol was 33%. Again, I respect the experience, but we have to just put a little question mark there. We know Sherwood's winrate at Spurs is good, although I accept the sample is too small to really cite in my argument.

5. Poch got sacked from that job with his team in relegation trouble. Again, no shame in being sacked, and by all accounts it was a tough situation off the pitch at the time. But still, it is a small black mark.

6. Does Sherwood's 20 years/500 games in English football as a player and Poch's 0 games make at least some difference in the experience argument?

7. Espanyol was Poch's club from his playing days. We often see in these situations a sentiment bounce/extended honeymoon because the player was so loved. Again, doesn't this at least somewhat lessen the argument that he has this mystical "experience" thing? It was kind of a special situation, not a vanilla one.

8. Doesn't Sherwood being in place/knowing Spurs and Poch not again at least somewhat narrow the gap in suitability? Poch would be upheaval, Sherwood would just continue as is. When we consider a new manager, the relative risks of those two scenarios must come into it.

9. This is a bit of a silly point, but just to say that Sherwood does have 4 games of Euro experience that Poch doesn't! Ok, that's nothing, but again my argument is that all these tiny little things narrow the gap, if only by a smidgeon.

10. Pre-season and transfer money: Poch has had both, Sherwood neither. Poch's signings have been patchy and not cheap. By all accounts the only player we really know Sherwood pushed for was Eriksen, our one true success this season.

11. Youth. Poch has had the advantage of several terrific SCBC players coming through the academy to 1st team. Nothing to do with him. Sherwood has actually brought through players from youth to first team himself.

12. Won't Poch still be available in 12 months? Are a team bigger than Spurs likely to come in for him if Sherwood bombs? What makes the appointment so compelling now? Whereas if Sherwood goes now, we'll never know what might have been.

13. Language. I accept that Poch speaks better English than Tim.

Here is my point: if you put one on your long list, you have to put the other. When you take all the little additions and subtractions above, the idea that one is deserving of being in consideration and the other not even deserving of a discussion really does not make sense.

Why do you start only with his Southampton games in charge, say the difference isn't that big and then later go on to say that the fact that part of Pochettino's experience is in Spain and that this means part of his experience must be marked down? At least then include those numbers in your initial comparison. Pochettino has 218 games in charge in total according to Wikipedia. Sherwood is behind him almost by an order of magnitude.

You seem to only focus on the points that you think makes the difference between them shrink. I disagree with a couple. I think experience from two different leagues is a strength. Pochettino brought through 20 youth players to the Espanyol side during his time in charge there, I think that counts as highly as what Sherwood has done with us.

More on a few of the points you bring up:

2. He was their third manager/head coach that season. Their situation then and our situation come the summer cannot be directly compared like that. And we're a much bigger club, in a much stronger position, with more money available. It's only natural that smaller clubs will be forced to take chances bigger clubs can avoid.

3. I read somewhere that Pochettino did some coaching work with the Espanyol ladies team. Should that count too? No. Sorry. Sherwood's technical director work and youth work counts about as much as Baldini's or Ramsey's. Yet I don't see anyone arguing for them.

6. Do we generally observe that playing experience in the league is a prerequisite or even correlated with managerial success in the Premier League? If not, then no it doesn't matter.

8. Sherwood's results have been good under the circumstances. Had it looked like he was also tactically astute, a good man manager and all round presented himself in a positive light I would think this has some point. Personally I'm not all that impressed with Sherwood.

9. I agree that it's silly. About as silly as it would be for me to say that Pochettino's 20 international caps means that he's a smidgeon more qualified to Sherwood who only has 3. I mention it only to highlight the point I made earlier, you seem to have gone looking for every little point that makes Sherwood look like a better option than Pochettino whilst ignoring the opposite side.

10. Who are those "all accounts" you're talking about? Other than Sherwood I mean...

12. Look at the quotes in the post I made earlier. He was being linked to the Real Madrid job when at Espanyol. Things change very quickly in football. Rodgers and Martinez looked very much available at one point, now they're not. To wait around just so that we can "see what happens with Sherwood to know for sure" makes no sense at all. Why not give Freund a chance too? Why not Ramsey? After all, if we don't try we'll never know what might have been.

Some of the to me more convincing points that are pro Pochettino, when compared to Sherwood:

A. Pochettino seems to have a very clear tactical plan and has shown that he can implement that at a new club, in the Premier League quickly. There's a confidence and a swagger about his tactical approach whereas Sherwood seems to be more try and fail. Formations, pressing, style, it's all been a messy. Keep throwing different style players into central midfield and if it works stick by it.

Come the summer if we have Pochettino in charge I think he'll have a very good plan for how he wants us to play, which players fit that and which player types we're missing. If Sherwood is in charge I don't think that will be the case to anywhere near the same degree. I have no idea what Sherwood thinks is his best team, or his preferred style at this point. After Pochettino had as long in charge of Southampton I think everyone saw what he wanted to do. It was clear after a month.

B. I'm not convinced at all that Sherwood's experience at the club is much of a benefit. I think we need a change, not more of the same. I think there's as much of a chance that he's been part of what's been wrong at the club as what's been right over the last years.

Pochettino on the other hand is by his own words inspired by Bielsa. Bielsa was described by Pochettino as "a second father". I think we need some new blood and I think the approach inspired by Bielsa might just be a better choice than what Sherwood brings to the table.

Finally I ask what I've asked before: Say we get LvG because United go for Martinez for whatever reason. You then read in the papers that Everton are considering Pochettino. Will you then say that they should also consider Sherwood? Because "the idea that one is deserving of being in consideration and the other not even deserving of a discussion really does not make sense."

Or is it just that Sherwood has a half season head start as our new manager? Is that the tipping point in his favour?

Related question: If we let Sherwood go and he starts looking for a new manager job this summer, which clubs do you think will be offering him a job? Surely he should be considered at least on par with Pochettino? So clubs like Southampton, Saudi Sportswashing Machine and West Ham should be all over him?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Timmeh, Moyes, Allardyce and Pardew are the only managers I'm categorically against becoming our manager. I've now taken Pullis off that list to accommodate Moyes.

 

[indianspur]

I haven't seen any quotes you may have posted, because I have developed an unhealthy habit of popping in, shouting random words and popping our again. I'll go back and see if I can find them. I don't follow Spanish football much: indeed, my main exposure to it comes from Sid Lowe's weekly column in the Guardian and the occasional Real Betis game (have a soft spot for them, which has certainly not helped me this season). However, a glance at Espanyol's position when Pochettino left and its position now shows a marked improvement: what the extenuating factors are for this (given that Aguirre also has a similarly straitened budget to work with) I don't know, but it does suggest that at the very least defensive fragility has followed Pochettino around, from Espanyol to Southampton, which would make me nervous given our present travails.

In regards to Southampton, I suppose the under-rating of their feats is because they were until recently owned by a billionaire (and are now owned by his daughter, if I remember correctly). With that backing, they've bought Gaston Ramirez, Dejan Lovren, Victor Wanyama and Pablo Osvaldo, all of which has given them a negative transfer spend and thus the scorn of some of us Spurs fans, who have grown increasingly used to seeing our club perpetually in the black and still competing at the top of the league. In addition to that, there have been quite a few well-managed, competitive sides coming up from the Championship recently, so that diminishes the effect of Southampton's current position on the mentality of the average Joe. And after all that over-achievement (by your reckoning), the point I guess I'm trying to make is that they're still only 8th: true, anything above that might be miraculous, but we need miraculous, not stolidly average or somewhat above average. LvG, Rafa, Conte and the rest (FdB included, I suppose) have done miraculous things. Southampton have been merely satisfactorily competitive. We need more, imo. Much more. And the other candidates can provide that to us. I doubt Poch can, at least currently.

what are you talking about??? why are you comparing Poch with people like FdB, Conte who both are managing the biggest clubs in their leagues. FdB winning the league or cup with Ajax is not a miracle. Conte doing the same with Juve is not a miracle either. Poch is the manager of Southampton, and has been for a little while. Espanyol are not Real Madrid, they are not a Barca, heck they are not even a Valencia. They are a minnow, just like Southampton, neither expected to win trophies and compete any higher than midtable..........look at Rodgers, what has he won prior to taking the Liverpool job??? What miracle has he performed in his managerial past that merited him taking the Liverpool job?? This man is now on the verge of delivering the PL to Liverpool in his second season!! Im not saying that Poch can do the same, but your arguments against him and the comparisons you make are not fair imo

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Moyes would be an absolute disaster of a choice at Spurs, but not because I don't think he is good. Just the wrong fit.

I do feel though if Moyes got Barry, McCarthy and Lukaku this season he would have had Everton doing just as well as Martinez had.

 

[milo]

There is not enough of a difference between Pochettino's record/experience/CV and Sherwood's record/experience/CV for one to be considered a "serious candidate" and the other to be considered a "lol, not even on the long list candidate."

It would be ok if people were saying Poch should be higher on our list than Sherwood. I could see the logic in that. But that's not what people are saying: they are saying Poch should be high on the list (and maybe even #1 for some people if our Galactico candidates don't come) while Sherwood shouldn't even be on that list in the first place. Not even on it! That does not make sense.

Wiki tells me Poch has 57 games for SCBC, Sherwood 25 for Spurs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauricio_Pochettino
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Sherwood

Is that really any kind of difference? Really? Enough that one guy is a "serious candidate for serious people to seriously consider" and the other a "joker candidate lol gilet Tactical Timbo lolz". Really? I see only degrees of difference there, not substantive ones.

People can cite Poch's time at Espanyol, which I 100% agree counts as extra experience. No argument from me AT ALL about that. It's a fact. But my point is that when you weigh up all the pro's and con's of appointing one not the other, the difference between the two - in a holistic, rounded, all-things-considered sense - is really not that great:

1. Isn't PL/English experience the thing people always cite as crucial? In that regard alone we have to mark down Poch's experience advantage from his time at Espanyol. I do not quibble that he has it, merely that it's marked down a small bit by it not being PL.

2. It's a bit ironic that Espanyol appointed someone with zero coaching experience who people now want for Spurs, and yet the idea of Spurs doing the same is ridiculous. Really, the difference between the two is simply the whim of whoever was Espanyol President at that time taking a punt on Poch. If he didn't do that, we wouldn't be having this conversation now.

3. If people cite Espanyol as experience, then why not cite Sherwood's 5 years at Spurs as experience too, albeit at a lower level? I agree 100% that development coach + boardroom/xfer panel experience is not the same as head coach experience, but again my point is it narrows the gap in the argument between the two men.

4. Poch's win rate at Espanyol was 33%. Again, I respect the experience, but we have to just put a little question mark there. We know Sherwood's winrate at Spurs is good, although I accept the sample is too small to really cite in my argument.

5. Poch got sacked from that job with his team in relegation trouble. Again, no shame in being sacked, and by all accounts it was a tough situation off the pitch at the time. But still, it is a small black mark.

6. Does Sherwood's 20 years/500 games in English football as a player and Poch's 0 games make at least some difference in the experience argument?

7. Espanyol was Poch's club from his playing days. We often see in these situations a sentiment bounce/extended honeymoon because the player was so loved. Again, doesn't this at least somewhat lessen the argument that he has this mystical "experience" thing? It was kind of a special situation, not a vanilla one.

8. Doesn't Sherwood being in place/knowing Spurs and Poch not again at least somewhat narrow the gap in suitability? Poch would be upheaval, Sherwood would just continue as is. When we consider a new manager, the relative risks of those two scenarios must come into it.

9. This is a bit of a silly point, but just to say that Sherwood does have 4 games of Euro experience that Poch doesn't! Ok, that's nothing, but again my argument is that all these tiny little things narrow the gap, if only by a smidgeon.

10. Pre-season and transfer money: Poch has had both, Sherwood neither. Poch's signings have been patchy and not cheap. By all accounts the only player we really know Sherwood pushed for was Eriksen, our one true success this season.

11. Youth. Poch has had the advantage of several terrific SCBC players coming through the academy to 1st team. Nothing to do with him. Sherwood has actually brought through players from youth to first team himself.

12. Won't Poch still be available in 12 months? Are a team bigger than Spurs likely to come in for him if Sherwood bombs? What makes the appointment so compelling now? Whereas if Sherwood goes now, we'll never know what might have been.

13. Language. I accept that Poch speaks better English than Tim.

Here is my point: if you put one on your long list, you have to put the other. When you take all the little additions and subtractions above, the idea that one is deserving of being in consideration and the other not even deserving of a discussion really does not make sense.

:lol:

 

[AdamB]

Just read in the Guardian that the Dutch FA have given LVG till 7 May to sort his future, then he's got to be fully focused on Holland till mid-July.

So we should know one way or the other in the next 3 weeks.

What are they going to do? Fire him? Take his phone off him?!? Bit of a daft comments - he's obviously not going to fly from Brazil to the UK to discuss a contract however they cant exactly prevent him from speaking to his agent and clubs