Morgan Schneiderlin

[Andyandy]

Do you disagree that he offers something different to what our current (experienced) central midfield options offer?

It's not all about level of ability. It's also about fitting a system and complementing other players. Parker was never a regular top 4 player and failed at Chelsea. He added something to our team that we lacked. Crouch was discarded at Liverpool, but he added something to our team that we lacked. Same story with Palacios. Just to name a couple.

Out of curiosity what do you think of the deep playmaker type players in general? Quite a few seem to miss* what they add to a team, and personally I have to say it's not always obvious even though I rate that type of player very highly. What were your thoughts on Carrick for example?

*Or perhaps understand better than me and I'm the one missing stuff.

He offers nothing which can't be found by finding the right combination of CM players on the staff.

Re: crouch/Parker - at the time, these guys were who we needed and went straight to the first team. Sometimes we need to do that, but when we do, let's make sure we have a budget to get quality and think long term. That budget can only be preserved by spending only when absolutely necessary i.e. not for reserve players, not for the Europa league etc.

Carrick was the best player we've had in the centre in recent decades, he could have been one of the best in his generation. Jol built a team around him but at utd he had to fit them, since then he has had good and bad seasons. Nevertheless, I will always think of him as somebody who would have been a better player at spurs (but without any trophies!).


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[milo]

He offers nothing which can't be found by finding the right combination of CM players on the staff.

Re: crouch/Parker - at the time, these guys were who we needed and went straight to the first team. Sometimes we need to do that, but when we do, let's make sure we have a budget to get quality and think long term. That budget can only be preserved by spending only when absolutely necessary i.e. not for reserve players, not for the Europa league etc.

Carrick was the best player we've had in the centre in recent decades, he could have been one of the best in his generation. Jol built a team around him but at utd he had to fit them, since then he has had good and bad seasons. Nevertheless, I will always think of him as somebody who would have been a better player at spurs (but without any trophies!).


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Which combination of current players provides us with an experienced Premier League passer and if we already have that attribute in the squad, why have we struggled with getting the ball forward quickly and effectively over the last few seasons?

 

[Andyandy]

Which combination of current players provides us with an experienced Premier League passer and if we already have that attribute in the squad, why have we struggled with getting the ball forward quickly and effectively over the last few seasons?

Best combination played on Sat (from KO) but that wasn't a 4-4-2 so was a bit more dynamic.

We've struggled to get the ball forward quickly because:

a) of the way we (our coaches) chose to play, it easy to play the ball longer and earlier if you choose to do so. It is not a question of one player's attributes there are 11 players responsible for it. We also pressed high, condensing the space for ourselves in the turnover.

b) opposition tactics, in the last 5 years we have become far better than 75% of PL teams and they have started to park the bus more and more. How many teams play 1 up front when defending these days? How can you get the ball forward quickly when there is nobody unmarked?





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[Rossi22]

I still don't think Schneiderlin is anything special with the ball at his feet.

 

[Kandi1977]

Him being mediocre is just your opinion. Most Southampton fans, many Spurs fans, plenty of people in the game, loads of journos and most importantly, our manager, disagree with you.

If he is so fu**** good, why are we the only ones after him?? He should be attracting a far bigger number of top clubs if he's so good. I've never been impressed by him, and I'm certainly not convinced he's any better than what we already have in stock.

 

[braineclipse]

Best combination played on Sat (from KO) but that wasn't a 4-4-2 so was a bit more dynamic.

We've struggled to get the ball forward quickly because:

a) of the way we (our coaches) chose to play, it easy to play the ball longer and earlier if you choose to do so. It is not a question of one player's attributes there are 11 players responsible for it. We also pressed high, condensing the space for ourselves in the turnover.

b) opposition tactics, in the last 5 years we have become far better than 75% of PL teams and they have started to park the bus more and more. How many teams play 1 up front when defending these days? How can you get the ball forward quickly when there is nobody unmarked?

So we're relying on a 19 year old central midfielder with a total of 12 Premier League starts to stay consistent and reliable throughout the season? Or are there combinations not including Bentaleb that are good enough in this regard too?

Even Sherwood, who clearly rated Bentaleb very highly, thought he needed resting/rotating at the end of last season with essentially a couple of months of PL football behind him. I just don't think it's fair to put that kind of pressure on players that young and inexperienced, it's like asking them to fail.

I still don't think Schneiderlin is anything special with the ball at his feet.

Compared to?

If he is so fu**** good, why are we the only ones after him?? He should be attracting a far bigger number of top clubs if he's so good. I've never been impressed by him, and I'm certainly not convinced he's any better than what we already have in stock.

Well it was widely reported that Arsenal were after him earlier this summer. One of the most reliable journalists on Spurs related news Greg Stobart reported that Schneiderlin preferred us because of Poch.

The fact is if a large number of top clubs were after him we probably wouldn't have a chance of signing him. We have to sign players the top clubs do not deem as good enough to improve them. This doesn't mean the player isn't good enough. The same was true with Ben Davies, the same was true with essentially every player we signed last summer and the majority of players we ever sign.

Edit: And if we're going by what other managers than Poch thinks of him, how about Deschamps rating him highly enough to bring him to the World Cup?

 

[stinkfoot]

I'm on the fence re: Schneiderlin.

One part of me wants our new Manager to have the exact players he wants to give him the best/smoothest possible route to implementing his philosophy (the 'Moutinho Effect' if you will ), but another part of me has belief in him to do with our players what he did with those at Southampton. It's kind of what we employed him for isn't it?

That's his personal challenge. To improve our (supposedly already superior than Southampton) players.

 

[milo]

Well it was widely reported that Arsenal were after him earlier this summer. One of the most reliable journalists on Spurs related news Greg Stobart reported that Schneiderlin preferred us because of Poch.

The fact is if a large number of top clubs were after him we probably wouldn't have a chance of signing him. We have to sign players the top clubs do not deem as good enough to improve them. This doesn't mean the player isn't good enough. The same was true with Ben Davies, the same was true with essentially every player we signed last summer and the majority of players we ever sign.

Edit: And if we're going by what other managers than Poch thinks of him, how about Deschamps rating him highly enough to bring him to the World Cup?

I think that the other point that should be made here is that the clubs that finished above us (and Man United) all have central midfielders who are good on the ball, so do not have the same obvious gap in the squad as us.

 

[braineclipse]

I'm on the fence re: Schneiderlin.

One part of me wants our new Manager to have the exact players he wants to give him the best/smoothest possible route to implementing his philosophy (the 'Moutinho Effect' if you will ), but another part of me has belief in him to do with our players what he did with those at Southampton. It's kind of what we employed him for isn't it?

That's his personal challenge. To improve our (supposedly already superior than Southampton) players.

What does it say that knowing better than anyone what he can and can't do with players Pochettino still thinks that bringing in Schneiderlin is better than not bringing in Schneiderlin?

He did what he did at Southampton with some clearly talented players that had skill sets that allowed them to be developed in that way in that style.

I think that the other point that should be made here is that the clubs that finished above us (and Man United) all have central midfielders who are good on the ball, so do not have the same obvious gap in the squad as us.

A more apt point might be "if he's so ****ing ****, why won't Southampton sell him to us?" considering that it would be about as much of a misrepresentation and just about as flawed as the post I replied too - only in the other direction.

But yes, I agree with you. And like I said most bigger clubs seemingly have not deemed him good enough to improve them. That doesn't mean that they don't think he's good enough to play for them, could be that they just don't think that he's (clearly) better than what they already have. A player could be a massive improvement on our current players without being an upgrade for the bigger clubs.

 

[stinkfoot]

I think that the other point that should be made here is that the clubs that finished above us (and Man United) all have central midfielders who are good on the ball, so do not have the same obvious gap in the squad as us.

I want to see what Poch can do with Dembele personally.

 

[milo]

I want to see what Poch can do with Dembele personally.

I will be interested to see that too but is it worth gambling our season on? Because if anything happens to Bentaleb, or he hits a poor run of form, we look very short of proven options.

For what it is worth, if Dembele is still with us on September 2nd, I suspect that he will play more as the defensive part of the holding two, alongside a passer or further forward.

 

[milo]

A more apt point might be "if he's so ****ing ****, why won't Southampton sell him to us?" considering that it would be about as much of a misrepresentation and just about as flawed as the post I replied too - only in the other direction.

But yes, I agree with you. And like I said most bigger clubs seemingly have not deemed him good enough to improve them. That doesn't mean that they don't think he's good enough to play for them, could be that they just don't think that he's (clearly) better than what they already have. A player could be a massive improvement on our current players without being an upgrade for the bigger clubs.

Agreed

 

[the dza]

I would like us to give Bentaleb a chance to shine -- but having said that, if Poch really wants this player then we should make a very good effort to sign him. Backing the manager with "his" players is important, and a reason why we have fallen short in the past is because we haven't backed our managers enough with regards their transfer targets.

 

[milo]

I would like us to give Bentaleb a chance to shine -- but having said that, if Poch really wants this player then we should make a very good effort to sign him. Backing the manager with "his" players is important, and a reason why we have fallen short in the past is because we haven't backed our managers enough with regards their transfer targets.

I want us to give Bentaleb a chance to shine too but at 19 and with no like for like back up in the squad, I think that it is too much of a risk going into the season with only him for that position.

 

[Bullet]

In a 4-2-3-1 I don't think the 2 need to be particularly good passers

The 3-1 are the clever guys with 1 touch passing and through balls and all that jazz

That is four guys to do the clever stuff, plus the 2 full backs pushing on

The 2 need to be OK at passing and able to pass 15 yards along the floor, but they don't need to be incredible necessarily

You don't want them to hold onto the ball or dribble or try to be Pele, you just want them to get the ball neatly to the front four

I'm sure some of our 47 midfielders can achieve that much

 

[milo]

In a 4-2-3-1 I don't think the 2 need to be particularly good passers

The 3-1 are the clever guys with 1 touch passing and through balls and all that jazz

That is four guys to do the clever stuff, plus the 2 full backs pushing on

The 2 need to be OK at passing and able to pass 15 yards along the floor, but they don't need to be incredible necessarily

You don't want them to hold onto the ball or dribble or try to be Pele, you just want them to get the ball neatly to the front four

I'm sure some of our 47 midfielders can achieve that much

I agree that they do not need to be fantastic passers or play complicated balls. I think that what they need to be able to do in Poch's system, is to receive the ball with their head up and play an early positive ball. Other than Bentaleb, and Capoue in flashes, I do not think that we have anyone who is well equipped to do that.

 

[diego_maradona]

I agree that they do not need to be fantastic passers or play complicated balls. I think that what they need to be able to do in Poch's system, is to receive the ball with their head up and play an early positive ball. Other than Bentaleb, and Capoue in flashes, I do not think that we have anyone who is well equipped to do that.

When you do have a good passer, ie. Pirlo or Gerrard last season, the results can be devastating. (Depending on who is ahead of them)

 

[milo]

When you do have a good passer, ie. Pirlo or Gerrard last season, the results can be devastating. (Depending on who is ahead of them)

Absolutely. I wonder how Liverpool would have got on last season if they had played either Dembele or Sandro* alongside Henderson.








*That is not to say that I don't rate either of these players, just that I think that our balance is wrong.

 

[Cochise]

See I disagree with the whole "deep 2 don't need to be great passers of the ball" thing. IIRC I read somewhere in an interview that Poch likes his players to be able to switch play quickly to the full back in space. So far this pre season we have seen the deep 2 pick up positions where they have been playing those passes and so far only Mason imo has done it convincingly. Schneiderlin does this job well and executed this type of pass quite often against Liverpool on the weekend, stretching play.

 

[Gutter Boy]

See I disagree with the whole "deep 2 don't need to be great passers of the ball" thing. IIRC I read somewhere in an interview that Poch likes his players to be able to switch play quickly to the full back in space. So far this pre season we have seen the deep 2 pick up positions where they have been playing those passes and so far only Mason imo has done it convincingly. Schneiderlin does this job well and executed this type of pass quite often against Liverpool on the weekend, stretching play.

I think one of the 2 needs to be a top ballplayer, but not necessarily both.

Remember at Soton Schneiderlin was partnered by Wanyama (a Poch signing) who is very Sandro-esque destroyer.