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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

last year’s Champions League, looming across the middle of the pitch like an avenging wookie, albeit an avenging wookie with the feet of a ballroom dancer

From the guardian article, sheer poetry.
Have to say I agree with a lot of what he's saying, the problem isn't the defence its the middle of the park and it always is when we have these problems under poch.
Dier, Dembele, Erikson and Harry look lost.
 
glasgowspur said:
last year’s Champions League, looming across the middle of the pitch like an avenging wookie, albeit an avenging wookie with the feet of a ballroom dancer

From the guardian article, sheer poetry.
Have to say I agree with a lot of what he's saying, the problem isn't the defence its the middle of the park and it always is when we have these problems under poch.
Dier, Dembele, Erikson and Harry look spent.
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FTFY
 
glorygloryeze said:
FTFY
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See I think they look lost because they are mentally spent.
It's not a coincidence in my eyes that Harry and Erikson have been below par since the WC because they were effectively carrying the burden of their national teams hopes.
Now they are back here and its the same.
Thats a lot of pressure.
 
glasgowspur said:
See I think they look lost because they are mentally spent.
It's not a coincidence in my eyes that Harry and Erikson have been below par since the WC because they were effectively carrying the burden of their national teams hopes.
Now they are back here and its the same.
Thats a lot of pressure.
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Yeah perhaps; definitely a physical issue as well though, as if they are Physically AND mentally spent
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Im not even talking about anyone specific, just the general tone.

Its predictable, and tiresome - time to give SNV a rest for a while I think.
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Agreed. It's the whole, sweeping statements and buying into massive narrative's because one or two, or three, results absolutely prove something. These results prove we should have made X number of signings in Y number of positions, Poch is crumbling under pressure, Levy is holding the club back, we will always have a brittle mentality, it goes on and on.

The reality is, it is 90% likely we finish in the top 6 this season. It's probably 80% likely we finish top 5 above Arsenal. We have always started seasons slowly in comparison to how we pick up as winter kicks in. If people were just to step back and realise the people they trusted / the people that were delivering excellent results barely a fortnight ago are still those same people, we would get a lot less swinging from one extreme to the other. This place, and the general Spurs Twitter, is unbearable right now. So many experts, so many moaners, so many people absolutely certain that another course of action would have prevented what we are seeing right now, rather than accepting we are in a game where we can win and where we can lose, where there are myriad factors at play, some of which are outside of our control, and that in 2 weeks time it will be another club's turn to be in crisis.

I get it, there is a lot of emotion at play. And people can either be on board with the journey we are on - in terms of belief in a long term plan - or not. But unless this turns into a 6 week winless run and we struggle to get out of the bottom half, I'm really not worried. There will always be ups and downs, but IMO this is where being a supporter comes in. It's very easy to be a fan when things are going so well, it's not as easy to keep the faith when we are struggling.
 
Also, I'm not usually a massive fan of Ali Gold and Football.London - but this is the sense of perspective that people need:

https://www.football.london/tottenh...auricio-pochettino-tottenhams-demise-15173287

It all looks worse because we've had some unfortunate news and distractions off the pitch, but it's tough to argue with the fact that compared to previous seasons, we're actually still in pretty good shape.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Agreed. It's the whole, sweeping statements and buying into massive narrative's because one or two, or three, results absolutely prove something. These results prove we should have made X number of signings in Y number of positions, Poch is crumbling under pressure, Levy is holding the club back, we will always have a brittle meteorology, it goes on and on.

The reality is, it is 90% likely we finish in the top 6 this season. It's probably 80% likely we finish top 5 above Arsenal. We have always started seasons slowly in comparison to how we pick up as winter kicks in. If people were just to step back and realise the people they trusted / the people that were delivering excellent results barely a fortnight ago are still those same people, we would get a lot less swinging from one extreme to the other. This place, and the general Spurs Twitter, is unbearable right now. So many experts, so many moaners, so many people absolutely certain that another course of action would have prevented what we are seeing right now, rather than accepting we are in a game where we can win and where we can lose, where there are myriad factors at play, some of which are outside of our control, and that in 2 weeks time it will be another club's turn to be in crisis.

I get it, there is a lot of emotion at play. And people can either be on board with the journey we are on - in terms of belief in a long term plan - or not. But unless this turns into a 6 week winless run and we struggle to get out of the bottom half, I'm really not worried. There will always be ups and downs, but IMO this is where being a supporter comes in. It's very easy to be a fan when things are going so well, it's not as easy to keep the faith when we are struggling.
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Out of interest, do you not think we are suffering physically from not getting one or two extra bodies into the squad, especially in CM and perhaps the forward areas?
I personally think we've been running on fumes since the Chelsea game in April...i doubt we have had any game since then where we have won AND can look back and say we played well AND looked solid overall, especially in terms of the CM area.
 
glorygloryeze said:
Out of interest, do you not think we are suffering physically from not getting one or two extra bodies into the squad, especially in CM and perhaps the forward areas?
I personally think we've been running on fumes since the Chelsea game in April...i doubt we have had any game since then where we have won AND can look back and say we played well AND looked solid overall, especially in terms of the CM area.
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We have a full squad
We also have players in CM who didn’t go to the World Cup in Wanyama and winks who is assume we rate highly
Do we go and buy someone or do we give them a chance to play again?
It’s a dilemma and a tricky one to manage
I’m not saying we shouldn’t have brought someone but it’s a fine balance
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Also, I'm not usually a massive fan of Ali Gold and Football.London - but this is the sense of perspective that people need:

https://www.football.london/tottenh...auricio-pochettino-tottenhams-demise-15173287

It all looks worse because we've had some unfortunate news and distractions off the pitch, but it's tough to argue with the fact that compared to previous seasons, I'm a actually still in pretty good shape.
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Quite like Gold’s writing style when he is let loose but I’m not convinced on his argument here. He recites a bunch of stats, none of which can be argued with for factual accuracy.

But there are other things at play. We’ve looked pretty flat since the Chelsea game last season. This isn’t 3 bad games or a slow start. We look more labored and poor at the back than I recall us looking in previous years.

The Kane in August thing is and always has been a load of crap. It’s just a coincidence that he hasn’t scored in August until this season. But this season he’s looked a shadow of himself. The World Cup was the same. As was the end of last season. I don’t know what’s going on but he looks like he has kryptonite in his boots.

Dembele is finished as a starter. He’s one of my favourite Spurs players of all time but I can’t recall him gliding past many people in the last 3 games and linking defence to attack. That’s his game. He was an effective sub against Fulham and Saudi Sportswashing Machine and maybe that’s as much as we can expect now.

Under Poch, we’ve been much, much better defensively. Always been pretty solid. Right now, I hide behind the couch when the opposition gets a corner.

It’s not all doom and gloom. We can turn this around. But it is superficial to purely use stats to support an argument. It’s also naive to say “we’ve started slow before and recovered, we will do it again.”
 
DeanoAustin said:
Quite like Gold’s writing style when he is let loose but I’m not convinced on his argument here. He recites a bunch of stats, none of which can be argued with for factual accuracy.

But there are other things at play. We’ve looked pretty flat since the Chelsea game last season. This isn’t 3 bad games or a slow start. We look more labored and poor at the back than I recall us looking in previous years.

The Kane in August thing is and always has been a load of crap. It’s just a coincidence that he hasn’t scored in August until this season. But this season he’s looked a shadow of himself. The World Cup was the same. As was the end of last season. I don’t know what’s going on but he looks like he has kryptonite in his boots.

Dembele is finished as a starter. He’s one of my favourite Spurs players of all time but I can’t recall him gliding past many people in the last 3 games and linking defence to attack. That’s his game. He was an effective sub against Fulham and Saudi Sportswashing Machine and maybe that’s as much as we can expect now.

Under Poch, we’ve been much, much better defensively. Always been pretty solid. Right now, I hide behind the couch when the opposition gets a corner.

It’s not all doom and gloom. We can turn this around. But it is superficial to purely use stats to support an argument. It’s also naive to say “we’ve started slow before and recovered, we will do it again.”
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I don't think it's naive to say that at all. We have, every single season, performed much better in the second half of seasons under Poch than in the first, and usually struggle to get maximum points in the first few games. It has happened every single year. It is likely something to do with the way he conditions the players, because they take some time to get up the top level of conditioning that gives us a strategic advantage on the pitch. I think it is completely fair to use points totals from similar stages in previous seasons (when you have a sample size like 4 seasons, as opposed to 1) and use it to say there is a good chance we will get back to what we always do.

We did look flatter after the Chelsea game last year, and I do wonder whether there was something in the fact that Poch got more of a tune out of us in the group stages last year, at the expense of traditionally being in the best form in the run in. I wouldn't be surprised if that is something revisited this season, to get the balance a little closer to what we need it to be. But I think, if we can be luckier with injuries this year, hopefully we can keep up good form in all competitions. If Winks is truly back, if Rose is truly back, if Wanyama is truly back, if Toby is truly back, if Lamela is truly back, if Moura is now a genuine option, then we have a lot more depth that we did last year.

I also don't think the Kane in August thing has been crap, I think it's a consequence of the fact that we hit better form as the season progresses, and as such create more chances for him as the games wear on. Again, I think it comes down to conditioning and being able to leverage our strategic advantage - and I think the way to get there may be to allow the players to get enough minutes into them to the point where they are better physically than a lot of the other teams. So there is no perfect answer - other than having much better players across every position. I think there is a certain amount of conditioning we can pump into players, and we can choose when they hit form and when we might have to row back slightly. Liverpool clearly prepare to hit games, and seasons running hard and quick. Every year under Klopp they start well. Every year under Poch, we take time to build up.
 
glorygloryeze said:
Out of interest, do you not think we are suffering physically from not getting one or two extra bodies into the squad, especially in CM and perhaps the forward areas?
I personally think we've been running on fumes since the Chelsea game in April...i doubt we have had any game since then where we have won AND can look back and say we played well AND looked solid overall, especially in terms of the CM area.
Click to expand...

No, not really. I think we have a deep squad. And I think someone as obsessed with sports science and conditioning as Poch and Perez will know how hard they can push players. Hence I don't believe Kane is tired - I think Poch is getting the minutes into him so he becomes the machine he usually is as the season wears on. Same with other players - he's giving them all the opportunity to get minutes and to get up to the level they need to be at which is something he hasn't done as well in previous years, because we haven't had the squad (or have had too many injuries) to enable him to do it.

I say this a lot, but Rose, Aurier, Sanchez, Winks, Wanyama, Sissoko, Moura, Lamela are all players I would feel comfortable playing in a first choice 11 in a big game and having them doing a good job. Vorm, Foyth, KWP, GKN, Llorente are young players, back ups or squad filler, but they have potential and fill roles well.

When we get Rose, Winks, Wanyama and Lamela back into top fitness, they will be players that we just didn't have last year, bar a few games here or there. Moura is now much more settled. Son can now fully focus on the club and not on worries about military service. Aurier if he can carry on his Inter performance should be more reliable. Toby now seems reintegrated. Even up top, I think we are broadly ok. I agree that a CM signing to replace a Dembele that has seemingly admitted his foot will never not hurt would have been good, but he's here. And Poch is getting the minutes into him which suggests he believes he has a role to play.

As I mentioned above, I agree that we were poor after the Chelsea game last season, and I think Poch maybe traded off some of our run-in conditioning to have us firing better in the CL group stages. And there is probably a point on the bell curve where we start going lower again after the peak, and because we had problems with the players I mention above last year, we couldn't rotate as much as we would have liked to be consistent all the way through.

Poch seems to be more clear on rotation from the off this time though, so I think we will be ok. Honestly, I was low after Liverpool, but after a few days to reflect and after a positive Inter performance, I really think we are going to be ok.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
I don't think it's naive to say that at all. We have, every single season, performed much better in the second half of seasons under Poch than in the first, and usually struggle to get maximum points in the first few games. It has happened every single year. It is likely something to do with the way he conditions the players, because they take some time to get up the top level of conditioning that gives us a strategic advantage on the pitch. I think it is completely fair to use points totals from similar stages in previous seasons (when you have a sample size like 4 seasons, as opposed to 1) and use it to say there is a good chance we will get back to what we always do.

We did look flatter after the Chelsea game last year, and I do wonder whether there was something in the fact that Poch got more of a tune out of us in the group stages last year, at the expense of traditionally being in the best form in the run in. I wouldn't be surprised if that is something revisited this season, to get the balance a little closer to what we need it to be. But I think, if we can be luckier with injuries this year, hopefully we can keep up good form in all competitions. If Winks is truly back, if Rose is truly back, if Wanyama is truly back, if Toby is truly back, if Lamela is truly back, if Moura is now a genuine option, then we have a lot more depth that we did last year.

I also don't think the Kane in August thing has been crap, I think it's a consequence of the fact that we hit better form as the season progresses, and as such create more chances for him as the games wear on. Again, I think it comes down to conditioning and being able to leverage our strategic advantage - and I think the way to get there may be to allow the players to get enough minutes into them to the point where they are better physically than a lot of the other teams. So there is no perfect answer - other than having much better players across every position. I think there is a certain amount of conditioning we can pump into players, and we can choose when they hit form and when we might have to row back slightly. Liverpool clearly prepare to hit games, and seasons running hard and quick. Every year under Klopp they start well. Every year under Poch, we take time to build up.
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I’m not sure you can plan football that precisely and, even if you could, why would plan to fall behind a club like City if you have aspirations to win the league like Poch repeatedly says he has? Give City and 6 or 9 point head start and you’re dead in the water.

We’ve also had some great early season performances under Poch. Pep said our 4-1 hammering of them in October a couple of years ago made him rethink the task in front of him. Yet we slumped a bit after that too.

You’re making a pretty big assumption on the reason for our flatness at the end of last season by saying it’s related to the CL. It could also be indicative of a staleness setting in which has carried through to this season.

On Kane, the Gold piece says that Harry “couldn’t hit a barn door in August...such was his aversion to August”. That’s utter pish and ignores the fact that Kane has looked far more lackluster this season than in the previous few.

Stats are fine and are useful to support an argument. But Gold is inferring that this is a normal early season slow start whilst ignoring the very real concern that there has been a pattern since April of us looking like we lack energy, lack belief and lack the defensive solidity that we’ve had in previous seasons.

We may well kick on from here but I don’t feel confident that we will just because we’ve done it in previous seasons.
 
DeanoAustin said:
It’s not all doom and gloom. We can turn this around. But it is superficial to purely use stats to support an argument. It’s also naive to say “we’ve started slow before and recovered, we will do it again.”
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Good points in your post overall but especially the bit above, stats are a tool (no more no less) that can be used to help tactics etc. However they can be wrongly used by those that are trying to push their agenda and that is one of the problems with stats and the use of them by those who are trying to prove their argument.
 
DeanoAustin said:
I’m not sure you can plan football that precisely and, even if you could, why would plan to fall behind a club like City if you have aspirations to win the league like Poch repeatedly says he has? Give City and 6 or 9 point head start and you’re dead in the water.

We’ve also had some great early season performances under Poch. Pep said our 4-1 hammering of them in October a couple of years ago made him rethink the task in front of him. Yet we slumped a bit after that too.

You’re making a pretty big assumption on the reason for our flatness at the end of last season by saying it’s related to the CL. It could also be indicative of a staleness setting in which has carried through to this season.

On Kane, the Gold piece says that Harry “couldn’t hit a barn door in August...such was his aversion to August”. That’s utter pish and ignores the fact that Kane has looked far more lackluster this season than in the previous few.

Stats are fine and are useful to support an argument. But Gold is inferring that this is a normal early season slow start whilst ignoring the very real concern that there has been a pattern since April of us looking like we lack energy, lack belief and lack the defensive solidity that we’ve had in previous seasons.

We may well kick on from here but I don’t feel confident that we will just because we’ve done it in previous seasons.
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You can't plan football precisely or give teams headstarts - that is willfully missing the point though. What you can do through conditioning is plan when you expect the squad to peak. And I'm pretty certain it is something Poch and Perez do.

I am making an assumption that our slump was based on the CL (plus injuries and a lack of rotation options)...but that's only because I can't tell you for certain I'm right without actually being on Poch's staff. I'm just looking at the differences and similarities across a pattern of 4/5 seasons now.

You can believe we will recover or not, but all I'm saying is that I'm placing my steak in the ground on the side of believing that we will, given what has gone before.
 
Would I would say is that our tempo is always, every single season under Poch, slower in the first few games. Typically before the first international break and then maybe for a game or two after. Then we seem to click a little bit (beating Huddersfield 4-0 last year was early on in an away game I remember) and then we start to get real consistency as winter draws in.

It's the way we play, and the tempo noticeably increases later in the season. I think that is by design. The game against Man United at Wembley in the League, we absolutely blew them away. It was relentless, always forward, always pressing, just a constant bombardment and it was great to see. But the point is you can't do that at all times during the season, you have to pick your moments. And if you align your conditioning to those moments, you can play a style of football that not many other teams can get close to replicating.
 
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