parklane1
Tony Galvin
Well i suppose that is one way of getting a " winning mentality" move the goal posts.
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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked
- Thread starter DubaiSpur
- Start date
Well i suppose that is one way of getting a " winning mentality" move the goal posts.
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
You seem to be a willing participant in making yourself look like an idiot by making yourself into an arbiter of sense.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
So is a "winning mentality" developed or something instinctive that certain people have and others don't?
How is this "winning mentality" developed? Does it increase/decrease with every win/loss or is the relationship the inverse of that?
How is this "winning mentality" developed? Does it increase/decrease with every win/loss or is the relationship the inverse of that?
You get a certificate when you win a trophy telling you that you have achieved Stage 1 Winning Mentality iirc
If you're a strong team who have big financial backing you get a special certificate that doesn't have the expiry date on it like the ones that get given out to the likes of Leicester and Portsmouth.
Well i suppose that is one way of getting a " winning mentality" move the goal posts.
I don't see how ive moved the goal posts - you think 'winning mentality' is something which comes through winning - whereas i think it's something developed in a player long before the final step of winning something.
Be interested to know what you disagree with there exactly?
Gazzasrightboot
Pascal Chimbonda
This is a very interesting conversation!
My tuppence, for what it is worth, is that I agree with the sentiment of what Poch is saying. i.e. the winning of a trophy is not in itself going to lead to long term "winning mentality" success. A winning mentality is built from winning games. Regularly. When your backs are against the wall and having the calmness to respond to errors or another team putting in a blinder against you. A winning mentality means that you refuse to lose, and you do everything that you can to win. Have that, and the competitiveness of the team, trophies and successes will be a signal of the winning mentality.
That being said, winning a trophy will help with that winning mentality. It gives further belief and is what players strive for. What I think Poch is saying, is that the trophy is not the only indicator of a winning mentality. The focus on a trophy at the expense of the attitude applied in a game is not indicative of a winning mentality. So a Carling Cup or even an FA cup on their own are not going to silence the ambitions of the team. They want more. That's all he is saying. He is not saying that there's no point in winning a trophy, and I think it is disingenuous to suggest that he has.
The reality is that the press has put pressure on this team to win a trophy, any trophy to truly be considered a great team, because in the years that follow people only remember trophies. There is an element of truth to that, but I remember some of our best teams, and we didn't win anything. In fact, our carling cup winning teams were on the whole brick. Would I have traded a trophy for a really competitive team that more often than not, won? I dare say I would trade the George Graham team trophy for that. Perhaps less so the Juande Ramos team, as they were more winners.
Do I think that we have a winning mentality at this club now? Yes. And here's the reason: More often than not, I go to games expecting to win now. In the years of the carling cup success, I didn't. I went in the hope that one of our players would have a blinder and the opposition would be having an off day. If there was a former player on the opposition side, I just knew they would ruin it for us. If the opposition team were on a run of successive losses, I knew they would win against us.
Do we have more to go? Absolutely! This team has not reached its potential.
Would a trophy now help us? Absolutely, but only in the sense that it would mean that there is more confidence in the project. Could we be more successful if we don't win a trophy this year? Of course, and that is the point Poch is making. If we don't win a trophy this year, it's not the end of the world or the project.
Cast your minds back to when we were pipped by Arsenal on the last day of the season. What did Poch say in the run up to that? It was not important to finish above Arsenal. He didn't care. We all know, from reading the book that was gonads. And to suggest that Poch does not want to win a trophy is the same. He's taking pressure off the team, but also saying the trophy itself is not crucial. It's the mentality that is. Chicken and egg.
My tuppence, for what it is worth, is that I agree with the sentiment of what Poch is saying. i.e. the winning of a trophy is not in itself going to lead to long term "winning mentality" success. A winning mentality is built from winning games. Regularly. When your backs are against the wall and having the calmness to respond to errors or another team putting in a blinder against you. A winning mentality means that you refuse to lose, and you do everything that you can to win. Have that, and the competitiveness of the team, trophies and successes will be a signal of the winning mentality.
That being said, winning a trophy will help with that winning mentality. It gives further belief and is what players strive for. What I think Poch is saying, is that the trophy is not the only indicator of a winning mentality. The focus on a trophy at the expense of the attitude applied in a game is not indicative of a winning mentality. So a Carling Cup or even an FA cup on their own are not going to silence the ambitions of the team. They want more. That's all he is saying. He is not saying that there's no point in winning a trophy, and I think it is disingenuous to suggest that he has.
The reality is that the press has put pressure on this team to win a trophy, any trophy to truly be considered a great team, because in the years that follow people only remember trophies. There is an element of truth to that, but I remember some of our best teams, and we didn't win anything. In fact, our carling cup winning teams were on the whole brick. Would I have traded a trophy for a really competitive team that more often than not, won? I dare say I would trade the George Graham team trophy for that. Perhaps less so the Juande Ramos team, as they were more winners.
Do I think that we have a winning mentality at this club now? Yes. And here's the reason: More often than not, I go to games expecting to win now. In the years of the carling cup success, I didn't. I went in the hope that one of our players would have a blinder and the opposition would be having an off day. If there was a former player on the opposition side, I just knew they would ruin it for us. If the opposition team were on a run of successive losses, I knew they would win against us.
Do we have more to go? Absolutely! This team has not reached its potential.
Would a trophy now help us? Absolutely, but only in the sense that it would mean that there is more confidence in the project. Could we be more successful if we don't win a trophy this year? Of course, and that is the point Poch is making. If we don't win a trophy this year, it's not the end of the world or the project.
Cast your minds back to when we were pipped by Arsenal on the last day of the season. What did Poch say in the run up to that? It was not important to finish above Arsenal. He didn't care. We all know, from reading the book that was gonads. And to suggest that Poch does not want to win a trophy is the same. He's taking pressure off the team, but also saying the trophy itself is not crucial. It's the mentality that is. Chicken and egg.
I don't think anyone is born with a "winning mentality", that's something loosely defined by society. What every living creature is born with though, is an urge to compete. For food, for mating, whatever. What I would call winning mentality, is willingness to do what it takes to reach whatever goal you set. It doesn't necessarily materialise into trophies, for many their goals are achieved just by getting into the squad or a specific team. And furthermore, winning mentality as I see it isn't necessarily something positive. For some, the urge to win leads to buckling down and working harder, for others it leads to cheating. You don't even have to be good at something to have a "winning mentality", but I do agree that success breeds success.
That would be a pretty fudging short journey if they only took one step. Or two. Or three.... etc.
All that training that had us score from a couple seems to have disappeared.
Strange. It's almost as if scoring from corners is a virtually uncontrollable event full of chaos and external influences over which rehearsal and training have little to no effect.
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You also have supremely talented individuals that at one time or another are in teams surrounded by other talented players and they collectively win a trophy or two - take Adebayor as an off the top of my head example, a gifted player capable of playing in the best teams in the world and won his share of trophies during his career... did he apply himself to his fullest? Did he work hard day in day out to achieve his maximum - did he have a winning mentality? Im not sure that he did because im sure a dedicated and focussed player with a winners mentality would have achieved a lot more throughought his career.
A team like Leicester, did they not exhibit a winning mentality all through their league winning season? Does the fact they didn't hit those heights again cancel out the strength in mentality they showed to win it that year?
I don't have the answer to that, I didn't really see a lot of Leicester that season. I don't even think winning mentality exhibits itself that way. And when you mention Adebayor, he is a prime example of a player who didn't show a lot of traits connected to what I would call such mentality. Another one off the top of my head, were our own Jermaine Jenas. An exceptional talent (England's most promising youngster at the time, I recall having read), great athlete and nice guy, but seemingly happy just to go through the motion, earning a good living off football. More concerned with not doing something wrong than doing something right and not overly concerned with taking the next step.
Speaking of thropies, they are often won or lost on coincidences, luck and other factors. (Winning) mentality can be one of them, it's both a poor measure and easier extracted collectively in hindsight IMO. Whether you hit or miss a penalty can certainly be down to a mental thing, but whether you have a winning mentality or not isn't one of them in my book. Noone likes to lose, noone chooses to hit the post or send the ball into row z, and nobody wants to end dead last in their division. But somebody has to. But as I said, I think that a team or group that has won a lot comes better prepared when facing certain situations, and are probably less error prone due to nerves and such. Mental traits I would rate higher, certainly when it comes down to winning the league rather than a cup though, are determination, cohesion and leadership. For all the good things with our present team, I still think we lack a leader. And he doesn't even have to be the best player, but HE has to have a "winning mentality" to kick some butts, the opposition's, the refs', and our own alike. I don't understand why captaincy sometimes seems given as a "reward". Probably putting my foot in my mouth, I'd rather have a great leader on the pitch than one on the bench. If we had a Keane or Vieira, I really think we would give City a run for the money, even this season.
I think the days of a Keane or Viera type captain are behind us atm, they may return but i don't see too much of that kind of player anymore and im not sure they would last long with their pampered team mates either - i think Kane has shown a consistent level of drive and self belief since his days out on loan that would hold him in good stead as a modern day lead-by-example captain.
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Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
Your education must have missed out Confusios.
You mean Confucius, first resort of the cognitively feeble?
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Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
Well, better to have misspelled him, than not appreciated his wisdom!
The ability to churn out succinct soundbites is a valuable one - not one I possess. It would be a mistake to confuse (not intended) that with actual wisdom or valid reasoning.
Pirate55
The Last Man Standing 17/18
I agree largely with what you say. And as previously stated, the next step in our progress to demonstrating we actually have a "winning mentality" is to actually win one-off "clutch games" . To date, under Poch, can anyone name a one-off important game which was crucial to win and we won? Apart from the league cup semi final in his first season, I am struggling.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Oh the irony!
We have to agree to disagree on that one. Sure, those kind of players aren't seen much anymore, but that's more down to being exceptional examples rather than being outdated as a role, in my opinion. And even if the level of "pamperedness" in football today probably is on another level than only 20 years ago, they're still mostly kids earning more money that they can spend, now as well as then. Which brings us down to "winning mentality" again. If you come from a normal background being talented in one thing, earning 100K+/w playing/training what you love for a couple of hours a day, haven't you reached the goal of 99% of any human being? I think this was the beginning of the end of the reigns of ManU and Arsenal, a sudden influx of players having reached their goal just by being there. Winning something was just a bonus. Loosely speaking, of course - again noone likes to lose. It's completely different in individual sports, where winning mentality is everything and losing out meaning not getting paid (sponsorship aside, but then again you have to show at least great potential to get anything bigger than Grandma's Garments).
Anyway, Kane is too much of a good guy for my choice, which is by no means the definitive answer I must add. I am also a fan of a (defensive) midfielder as captain, a keeper as we have certainly doesn't do it for me as his movement is so restricted. If you like lead-by-example, Kane is obviously a good choice. But I'd rather have a player more involved, and with the ability to read and hopefully influence the dynamics of the game more.
Glenda's Legs
Paul Walsh
To me, a winning culture is consistently winning trophies - top level trophies.
A winning mentality is what can get you to that level. Not guaranteed as you need other factors - skill, ability, technical and tactical astuteness, even a certain amount of good fortune - but it’s the winning mentality that will help you get to that level of sustained success.
That mentality is both instilled and exhibited on the training ground and obviously taken through to competitive matches. It’s going into every game with the belief that you will win. Not through arrogance or disrespect of the opposition, but truly believing that if you follow your game plan, your in-game instructions, if you battle and press and show strength and belief in yourself and your team mates, then you know you can win. It’s not thinking we have lost 7 semi-finals, it’s thinking we are going to win this one. It’s not thinking we never win at Stamford Bridge or Anfield, it’s having the confidence in our own abilities to know we are good enough to win. We might not always win, but it won’t be from lack of belief or, effort or, to coin one of Poch’s favourite terms, bravery.
You can win an FA Cup, for example, by having that belief - and maybe luck - for half a dozen or so games, against varying opposition. Does that mean you have the strength of conviction to battle out 38 PL games and win the league? Not necessarily.
Winning a trophy - be it FA Cup, PL, CL - might help towards building that winning mentality. But it’s about far more than winning a once-off trophy tha5 might or might not be followed by more success. It’s about instilling the belief that you will win any game, whatever the competition. That in itself should lead to more sustained success.
A winning mentality is what can get you to that level. Not guaranteed as you need other factors - skill, ability, technical and tactical astuteness, even a certain amount of good fortune - but it’s the winning mentality that will help you get to that level of sustained success.
That mentality is both instilled and exhibited on the training ground and obviously taken through to competitive matches. It’s going into every game with the belief that you will win. Not through arrogance or disrespect of the opposition, but truly believing that if you follow your game plan, your in-game instructions, if you battle and press and show strength and belief in yourself and your team mates, then you know you can win. It’s not thinking we have lost 7 semi-finals, it’s thinking we are going to win this one. It’s not thinking we never win at Stamford Bridge or Anfield, it’s having the confidence in our own abilities to know we are good enough to win. We might not always win, but it won’t be from lack of belief or, effort or, to coin one of Poch’s favourite terms, bravery.
You can win an FA Cup, for example, by having that belief - and maybe luck - for half a dozen or so games, against varying opposition. Does that mean you have the strength of conviction to battle out 38 PL games and win the league? Not necessarily.
Winning a trophy - be it FA Cup, PL, CL - might help towards building that winning mentality. But it’s about far more than winning a once-off trophy tha5 might or might not be followed by more success. It’s about instilling the belief that you will win any game, whatever the competition. That in itself should lead to more sustained success.