DublinSpur
Scott Parker
Agreed. Though judging by the Europa League thread, there are plenty here who would - mystifyingly - consider 10th an improvement on 5th or 6th.
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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked
- Thread starter DubaiSpur
- Start date
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
And that would be improvement how, exactly?
DublinSpur
Scott Parker
He's not saying it would be an improvement. He's saying we should be thinking medium-to-long-term; and if that means giving a manager a couple of years to experiment and perfect a system and build a squad... even if our league position suffers slightly in the short-term... then so be it.
Of course not everyone will agree with that position; but I do. And so do plenty of others I suspect.
I
indianspur
Guest
there is no way with all the experimenting in the world that we should be finishing any lower than 7th......Poch has a good crop of kids, a few experienced heads, with the addition of his own signings he should have us in 7th as a minimum
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Forward progress, that's what I want to see. Evidence of a plan, of a clear tactical approach on the field that will yield greater benefits the more it's allowed to settle in. Evidence of his increasing control over the club and the players. Evidence of him being able to motivate the players in every game, and of us giving it our all, the results themselves be damned.
I've consistently maintained that I'm not really concerned with where we finish under Poch as long as this progress is always in evidence. However, if we finish tenth next season with the same squad as we had this season and the same end-of-season slump we've suffered this season (As Armchair seems to suggest could be the case) , then how exactly would that constitute an improvement, or forward progress? That's what I'm curious about.
Finish 10th are you being serious?
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
Brad Freidel was very complimentary of Poch on Goals on Sunday this week. I appreciate that he's hardly going to come out and slate the guy whilst he's still at the club, but he went above and beyond the minimum he could have said IMO.
That has to be a good sign.
That has to be a good sign.
SoundAndVision
Michael Brown
Whilst i agree continuity and stability is something thats important and something we have severely lacked with our managers over the years, if someone of Ancelotti's caliber was available you just dont turn that opportunity down, he's one of the top 5 coaches in the world.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
You've mistyped that slightly.... I think the official line is:
"there are plenty here who would - mystifyingly - consider 10th under Pochettino an improvement on 5th or 6th under Sherwood."
Armchair Expert
Vedran Corluka
ooooh you didn't just do that did you?You've mistyped that slightly.... I think the official line is:
"there are plenty here who would - mystifyingly - consider 10th under Pochettino an improvement on 5th or 6th under Sherwood."
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
It's about fit though.
Ancelotti has only really been successful managing the egos of gallaticos (a tough job that not many could do). But he's not the type of manager who would spend a lot of time on the training ground developing academy graduates. If we'd missed out on Schneiderlin last summer under Ancelotti, he probably would have just sulked and walked. He wouldn't have delved into the academy and made Bentaleb and Mason just as effective.
At this point in time I genuinely wouldn't swap Poch for any other coach in the world. He's a good fit for our academy-led organic growth plans. Levy has been looking for Poch for years.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
You've mistyped that slightly.... I think the official line is:
"there are plenty here who would - mystifyingly - consider 10th under Pochettino an improvement on 5th or 6th under Sherwood."
Sometimes it can be.
Bill Nich took over when we had finished 3rd. In his first season we finished 18th
Keith Burkinshaw took over when we had finished 9th. In his first season we finished 22nd
But they were visionary managers who brought all our major successes. Sometimes you need short term pain for long term gain, especially when turning around a failing organisation.
IMO the time and faith Poch has invested in the 5 academy players + Dier this season will pay us back exponentially in future. Instead of cantering through the season using players like Ade, Lennon and Dembele, he's decided the shape the core of our team for the next 5+ years.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
The first and second divisions were a LOT more competitive then, teams could go up from the 2nd division and then win the 1st division the following season instead of it being a considerable achievement just to survive having gone up, as it is now.
Which 5 academy players are these that Poch has invested so much in?.... Are three of them Kane, Rose and Bentaleb (all of which Sherwood played regularly?) I guess another is Townsend? (who I don't think will ever be anywhere near as good as Lennon currently is.) So that leaves Mason and, yes, Pochettino deserves credit for bringing him in, however I don't doubt that Sherwood wouldn't also have done so (especially as Sherwood was instrumental in Mason still being at THFC). Additionally it wouldn't have surprised me if Sherwood had kept both Carrol and Pritchard in our squad this season instead of loaning them out. Pochettino hasn't done anything 'special' with us so far. He also hasn't spectacularly failed so deserves another season. But if that season resulted in us finishing 10th then he would deserve to receive his P45 (unless of course he won us the FA Cup or Europa League)
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
It's not about Sherwood verses Poch though. The point GB is trying to make (and for once I actually agree with him) is that implementing a youth based system takes time, but is worth it and even more so in the current financial fair play situation.
It's about the expectation of the club. We seem to be currently saying that youth is the way forward. If that is truely what we believe then more than ever we need stability in management. We also need to be more willing than we wver were before to accept 'unacceptable' finishing positions in the league.
Let's say he lays his cards out in the summer and sells all the older players and went into the season with a team of Lloris, Rose, Walker, Dier, Vertongen, Bentaleb, Mason, Ali, Eriksen, Pritchard and Kane. This team would struggle, but it would be comfortably be the youngest team in the premiership, it would also be exciting and full of talent, it would not struggle so much that it would get relegated.
If Poch finished 10th but in the next season 8th, next season 5th, next season 4th and by his 5th season is challenging for the title with a team very talented players who have now matured into a fully functional group, is he a failure, should he be sacked?
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
I apologise for making it Sherwood vs Pochettino, especially as I know how easily threads are derailed into that sort of thing. I just get frustrated that the same people who wanted rid of Sherwood (who overall was probably succeeding) are prepared to give Pochettino time even if he was failing (i.e. finishing 10th) despite the two managers trying to do a very similar thing in terms of promoting and playing our talented young players.
While it would be great to implement something akin to your suggestion above, in reality it simply wouldn't work. We will already find it difficult to hang on to our best players because we are not playing in the Champions League. If we finished 10th next season and missed out on European football altogether then I think we would lose the best 5 or perhaps even 6 players in the team (Lloris, Rose, Vertonghen, Eriksen, Bentaleb and Kane) and then we'd have to start all over again, except this time we may not be good enough so that we didn't struggle enough to get relegated.
A balance has to be struck between looking into the future and achieving in the here and now. 10th would be a completely unacceptable league PL finish for THFC and I'm pretty sure that any manager who dropped us down to 10th in the table would depart the club (unless winning a major trophy.) Even if the chairman stuck with the manager, I'm sure the fans would make the manager's position untenable.
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
Don't worry, I also feel your pain!!
We'll lose the best players in the team regardless. It's just an unfortunate symptom of where we are as a club. It took me a while for me to come to terms with it if I'm honest, but it's just the way it is.
This is why it's even more important to stick with Poch and a youth based system.
There's actually a fairly good example playing out before our eyes currently. Christian Eriksen. If we finished 10th next year, he's likely to be off (as are some of the others although I don't think all 5). However we have a young up and coming Alex Pritchard, who Poch has been watching closely. He probably already know's himself if he thinks Pritch can replace Eriksen. If he can, bring him into the team and use the substantial money recieved from Eriksen's transfer to strengthen other weaker areas. The result is a stronger team overall which can continue to move forward.
Sack Poch and bring in Anchellotti (or similar) after his first season finishing 10th and that Eriksen money gets spent on another player most likely older than Eriksen who prevents Pritchard getting game time and does not improve the team as a whole.
Unfortunately you're probably right about the fans making the position untenable though.
We lose players, and that's heart breaking yes, but at the moment we lose them to man u and real Madrid, if we start finishing 10th then potentially we will be losing them to west ham ..... That wouldn't be cool dude.
Also in your scenario pouch goes from 10th to 8th to 5...... What indicates that if he finishes 10th next year things would improve?
Maybe it will be 10th, 14th 17th ...
Should we still be keep Faith?
if he finishes 10th next season it will set the club back 5-10 years, and all of our decent players would be looking to jump shiP
So no thanks, especially as he has absolutely no pedigree of making teams successful.... None. It would be boarding on insanity to keep him on after that kind of finish.
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
It may well be, but that's the risk. Either accept that the players are young and in some cases almost too young to play regularly in the PL, but due to the fact we can't buy our way into the CL, show faith that they have the ability and attitude and that the manager you have chosen has picked the correct young players, or continue to do what we have done previous and sack managers then start over 'with a set of players that aren't his'.
It's finish 10th and stick with him or finish 10th and sack him and start over. We've repeatedly tried the sack him and start over route over the past few years and only once have we reached the holy grail of CL. Why not try a different way?
Of course, this all depends on the nature of how we ended up in 10th position. There's a big difference between getting hammered every other week due to players not having a clue what they are doing and getting beat by the odd goal in the 90th minute because a young player loses concentration.
If we finished 10th due to the former, I'd be in agreement with letting him go, if the latter I'd be against it. I wouldn't be happy with finishing 10th either way, but I'd accept the latter if it was for the good of the long term.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
We haven't sold a top player to another EPL team for 7 years now.
I think we'll only sell to Madrid, Barca, Bayern level clubs now. We're further up the foodchain now and are also more resolute to Chelsea and United bully boy tactics.
City and us are supposed to have good board-level relations, so I think they'd behave more dignified (and tend to buy from abroad now anyway, once they had cleared Comolli's finds out of Arsenal).
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
I think we'll see about that if and when De Gea goes to Madrid this Summer....
Additionally if we were to finish in the completely unacceptable position of 10th next season then I'm sure you'd see very little willingness from our best players to remain at the club.