Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[Baleforce]

Well actually there was a lot more galeforce, gloryglory, thfcsteff, the list was substantial.

i'm not sure i've ever done that explicitly, I may have, I can't remember, my angle is more refusing to give him credit for anything rather than twisting things, I concede I may have joined in to a blood lust on occasion and got carried away, I don't like the bloke and I passionately hate his football philosophy

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

I can only really think of Gutterboy, Scara and Jord that could possibly fit in to that description - which leads me to think you are letting a vocal minority cloud your judgement on others - generally feeling was he done alright iirc - the debate was how much of a lady garden he had been.

Anyway i fail to see the relevance 99% of the time he is brought up outside of the thread in Random these days

Probably was just those three (edit: apparently not, thanks DTA), but my GHod they went on and on and on and on..........

GB is one of the guys now singing Poch's praises for some of the things he would have criticised TS for, I think that's why TS was brought up in this case by another poster (although I can't remember who brought it up and I can't be arsed looking back through the thread).

I don't have any interest in getting into an argument with you over how relevent or irrelevent the discussions are though, and I'm sure you don't either! Was just trying to give some reasoning.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Probably was just those three (edit: apparently not, thanks DTA), but my GHod they went on and on and on and on..........

GB is one of the guys now singing Poch's praises for some of the things he would have criticised TS for, I think that's why TS was brought up in this case by another poster (although I can't remember who brought it up and I can't be arsed looking back through the thread).

I don't have any interest in getting into an argument with you over how relevent or irrelevent the discussions are though, and I'm sure you don't either! Was just trying to give some reasoning.

It may well have been me that lit that particular grenade and tossed it in

The thing is that overall I am a fan of Pochettino and what he has done and hope he is given a lot more time at Spurs, but as a few others have also pointed out, I just find it incredulous when the same posters who vilified Sherwood praise Poch for doing the same/worse.

An example there further back where somebody (sorry can't be bothered to go back and look at who) claimed that "we got 6th thanks simply to Adebayor having some outstanding months after Sherwood took over" while completely overlooking the fact that we may not be able to finish in the same place this season despite the fact that the performances from Harry Kane since coming into the team as our number 9 have been even more outstanding than Adebayor's last season.

 

[Jurgen the German]

But, but... End of the season league position is the only thing that is important. Everything else is just context one should ignore...



Currently I would say yes. We probably do have the 6th best squad in the PL. After Rose pushed on, Bentaleb took the next step, Mason emerged, Eriksen pushing on, Chadli showing what he can do and of course Kane being excellent.

If we were relying on Paulinho, Kaboul, Chiriches, Capoue, off-form Ade, Soldado and Dembele as looked possible before the youngsters did their thing I'm not convinced we would have a better team/squad than Southampton.

We got 6th last season despite a lot of players doing poorly in part thanks to Adebayor having some outstanding months right after Sherwood took over. As we've seen over and over again he can't be trusted to be performing consistently though.

So finishing 13th would be fine with you as long as we make improvements in other areas?

 

[Jurgen the German]

By crap I probably mean overrated and nothing special in Koeman's case. Laudrup was crap though and called it from day one, even before people starting fawning over him. Just like Southampton now he benefitted massively from the work put in by others. Just like Martinez is nothing special, but since he's at another club the glaring flaws get overlooked.

Poch may not be anything special either, but he's perfect for us right now. I doubt there are many out there who could have done better than him this season, making us competitive (while inconsistent) and also putting in work that we will benefit from long term. The whole team is fitter, we've had a proper look at everyone in the squad to determine who stays and who needs to go and we're bringing through academy products.

But he must be doing a pretty decent job considering he's above Spurs? Or you don't rate Poch that highly either?

 

[Finney Is Back]

I believe that not to be the case, form under AVB extrapolated over the whole season would have seen us finish with 1 more point

A nice work of fiction there. Let me replace the fiction with fact....

AVB:
W, W, L, W, W, D, L, W, W, D, L, L, D, W, W, L
27 points in 16 games or 1.6875 points per game.
Extrapolated over a 38 game Premiership season that is a total of 64 points.

Sherwood:
W, D, W, W, W, W, L, D, W, W, L, W, L, L, W, L, W, D, W, W, L, W
42 points in 22 games or 1.9091 points per game.
Extrapolated over a 38 game Premiership season that is a total of 73 points.

 

[braineclipse]

So finishing 13th would be fine with you as long as we make improvements in other areas?

Nope...

Why do you ask? What in what I said made you think that this was the case?

 

[Jurgen the German]

Nope...

Why do you ask? What in what I said made you think that this was the case?

You were mocking those who believe the league position is aruably the key factor in assessing progress.

 

[braineclipse]

You were mocking those who believe the league position is aruably the key factor in assessing progress.

So you were actually serious? After years of discussing football with me here you actually thought that my opinion was that 13th would be fine as long as there was progress in other areas?

If you re-read my post you might notice the word "only" in there. If you remember our conversation not that many pages back we were talking about a difference between 6th and 7th. If you look at the context of this thread you can see people claiming that 7th-8th (where we might actually finish) is problematic. This was the context of my post, but by all means go all reductio ad absurdum if you have to.

 

[Robspur12]

Exactly. When we spent that money, every Spurs fan said "well we just re-invested it, we didn't spend it". Should be the same for Soton too. I think it will be quite embarrassing if we finish below them purely for the reason that we poached or Poched their manager excuse the pun.

Agree unfortunately and it will no doubt end the already slim chance that schneiderlin will leave them for us.

 

[Robspur12]

You were mocking those who believe the league position is aruably the key factor in assessing progress.

I think we do have to give a full picture of this season too. We could finish top 6 and have reached a cup final by the end of the season. Well it's only the capital one cup I here you say but Poch still had to manage the squad and play a hectic Europa league schedule at the same time. In the context of comparing. Him to Koeman and Sherwood one surely has to take into account the number of games played. I think a fairer comparison is with Brenton Rodgers in his first season at pool. Finished 7th out of the cups early and failed to beat a top 4 team. And he had suarez and sturridge.

 

[glorygloryeze]

MoPo - i do fear that the 'pressing/Bielsa' philosophy has big limitations long-term and i fear it's the training methods related to this that has seen our recent limp displays. I would think it would look bad if we finish lower than Soton and I hope this drives MoPo on to make sure we finish above them in the top 6 (though due to a bet, in the unlikely scenario that they finish 4th/5th and we finish behind them in 6th and Liverpool below us i would be happy!). However the season ends, I think MoPo's results at home to Chelski and the Scum show what can be done with his methids and am very happy to see him get at least 2 more seasons. Oh and think Koeman, long-term, will prove no better than Laudrup: a manager that has good starts but gets the hump/disinterested once he has to graft and try and turn things around when thing get tricky. I am VERY sure MoPo will prove better for us than Koeman proves for Soton longer-term.

Sherwood - I think he is a complete bell-piece and am sooooooo glad he is no longer our manager regardless of his 'best win ratio ever.' I believe giving him any longer time in the hotseat which is the Spurs manager job would have ended in complete disaster as the way he represented our club would likely have gotten even worse. His results were decent enough but i fear that he wouldn't have maintained it with his management by bomb-squad antics, where when we win it was because of him and when we lost it was 'them' that needed to change.
A complete tool and i'm glad he has gone, regardless of how our season pans out and regardless of the fact he got his win hat-trick vs MoPo on Saturday (potentially a sackable offence for MoPo, not that I think he actually should be sacked btw lol). Sherwood as a manager and ambassador of a club is not fit to lick the boots of Redknapp, AVB or MoPo.

 

[braineclipse]

MoPo - i do fear that the 'pressing/Bielsa' philosophy has big limitations long-term and i fear it's the training methods related to this that has seen our recent limp displays. I would think it would look bad if we finish lower than Soton and I hope this drives MoPo on to make sure we finish above them in the top 6 (though due to a bet, in the unlikely scenario that they finish 4th/5th and we finish behind them in 6th and Liverpool below us i would be happy!). However the season ends, I think MoPo's results at home to Chelski and the Scum show what can be done with his methids and am very happy to see him get at least 2 more seasons. Oh and think Koeman, long-term, will prove no better than Laudrup: a manager that has good starts but gets the hump/disinterested once he has to graft and try and turn things around when thing get tricky. I am VERY sure MoPo will prove better for us than Koeman proves for Soton longer-term.

Sherwood - I think he is a complete bell-piece and am sooooooo glad he is no longer our manager regardless of his 'best win ratio ever.' I believe giving him any longer time in the hotseat which is the Spurs manager job would have ended in complete disaster as the way he represented our club would likely have gotten even worse. His results were decent enough but i fear that he wouldn't have maintained it with his management by bomb-squad antics, where when we win it was because of him and when we lost it was 'them' that needed to change.
A complete tool and i'm glad he has gone, regardless of how our season pans out and regardless of the fact he got his win hat-trick vs MoPo on Saturday (potentially a sackable offence for MoPo, not that I think he actually should be sacked btw lol). Sherwood as a manager and ambassador of a club is not fit to lick the boots of Redknapp, AVB or MoPo.

No reason to fear yet

First of all with 'The Youngest Team In Europe' (tm) a fair deal of inconsistency should be expected. I don't think we can draw conclusions on why there's inconsistency when inconsistency is expected almost regardless.

Second of all most teams experience drops in form like these. Including ourselves, including ourselves in years when we've had completely different approaches.

Third some of the teams that do play a very hard working and high pressing style have shown that it's possible to do so without big drops in form. Athletico Madrid under Simeone, Barca under Pep and Dortmund under Klopp (up until this season) have shown that it's possible. If anything I would say that other teams worth comparing those to with other styles have been at least as inconsistent, if not more so. Other than truly top teams with truly top budgets who have been more consistent than these clubs in recent years?

Yes Bielsa has seen some spectacular drops in form, but remember too that's he's tried to implement very extreme versions of the high pressing systems at clubs/teams with fairly limited resources. And his results have not been bad, despite the drop in form mid-season-ish he currently has Marseille in 4th in League 1, a Marseille team that finished 6th last season. Doing so with a more or less break even net spend whilst losing arguably their best player in Valbuena.

He did end up getting Bilbabo to the EL final too. And his disappointing second season came after they lost Javi Martinez and there were contract issues contributing to Llorente being freezed out. Combined with Bilbao's restrictions in the transfer market hardly a shocking outcome.

 

[Cochise]

I'm amazed at all the doom and gloom in the football press today. So many articles talking about Poch looking like a failed experiment and a mistake. It's so short sighted and the worst thing is that these "journo's" will change their tune next year if we go on a run and lambast Spurs fans for having no patience. Spurs fans (and I'm not talking about anyone on here) whose opinions are just whatever the journalists are.

 

[LutonSpurs]

• This squad has played a lot of games this season, there was always going to be some burnout.
  
• The EL is taxing
• We had a full run at the League cup
• We played some intense games in the league beating Arse and Chelsea
• A young first XI with hardly any players at their physical and mental peak because of their age
  
• Lots of dross in the squad
  
• A new coach and a new system
• A young coach with his first year at a big club who will develop and makes mistakes along the way
• 6th highest wage bill and one of the lowest net spends in the league

All in all i think we can say it has been an interesting season but the angry folk need to have some perspective. There are lots of things that explain why we are where we are. We have not under achieved. We just need to see us develop further next season and really get behind the boss.

 

[Raziel]

The angry folks need to find a new club. I'm not trying to do the who's a better fan rant (so don't go there), what I am trying to say is ...

If you want a club that consistently (key word) finishes in the top 4, and consistently wins trophies, and you want that in the next 5 years, you have the wrong club. The modern game is rigged with money doping, its not just transfer fees, or wages, or CL income, but also the fees/wages you pay for players that will either just pad the squad or never actually play for you. Cheat$ki and City have players out on loan that would likely walk into our first team, think of the cost/wages of -> De Gea, Carrick, Di Maria, Mata, Rooney, RVP, Falcao, we would be delighted to have one of those players, yet our fans expect we get better results than them ...

Spurs to me is always about the moments, the moments this season we handed Cheat$ki/Scum their ass, Kane being the top striker in England, Hugo being ridiculous good. We remain a club that is still trying to run a fair business, we contribute more to Charity than almost every club above us, our fans don't sing about gas chambers or pelt bananas, at our core we try to play entertaining football.

5th and a cup final would have been an excellent season, lets not try to switch the goalposts at the end. 7th and a cup final is still a decent result, especially as I think the big achievement this season is making it extremely clear of who is not good enough even for that goal. Hopefully a good transfer window, good preseason sets us up, but next year will be tough as well.

My view is, I still remember us signing "we are going on a European tour" when we first believed we could get Europa under BMJ after years out, I remember so many seasons over by December/January, I remember really brick players .. and I mean really brick players (sides that Kaboul/Capoue/Dembele/Paulinho would walk into). In the past 8 or so years, I've been to Europa games, been to CL games (what a run), seen Hugo, King, Carrick, Berbatov, Modric, VDV, Bale, Eriksen play for my team and destroy teams on their day ..

Poch is a decent guy, doesn't seem to have the personality flaws of most since BMJ, we have seen that hint of what he hopes to do, he's here, lets back him/team and try to enjoy it for just a little bit ...

 

[parklane1]

My view is, I still remember us signing "we are going on a European tour" when we first believed we could get Europa under BMJ after years out, I remember so many seasons over by December/January, I remember really crud players .. and I mean really crud players (sides that Kaboul/Capoue/Dembele/Paulinho would walk into). In the past 8 or so years, I've been to Europa games, been to CL games (what a run), seen Hugo, King, Carrick, Berbatov, Modric, VDV, Bale, Eriksen play for my team and destroy teams on their day ..

QUOTE]

I do agree with all of your post but especially the bit above, it great to see a bit of reality coming into the debate instead of those who just choose to bitch and moan about our position.

 

[parklane1]

(See above, I am not sure what happened there)

I do agree with all of your post but especially the bit above, it great to see a bit of reality coming into the debate instead of those who just choose to bitch and moan about our position.

 

[shaney]

The amount of slack Poch is being given compared to the vitriol given t some of our past managers is puzzling. People see the 2 wins against Chelsea and Arsenal as something way more then they were. Of course, its great to win those games, but to put it into context, Saudi Sportswashing Machine beat Chelsea and Stoke beat Arsenal also. We cling onto those 2 wins for some shred of hope for the future while ignoring the bigger picture.

Yes we beat Arsenal. They will end the season in a champions league spot, runners up even, and GHod forbid might also win the fa cup again. Do you think they give losing to us a second thought.

Yes we beat Chelsea. They will end the season as champions. Do you think they give losing to us a second thought compared to winning the league.

We have HUGE problems and Poch has done nothing to suggest anything will change next season. In fact, we will probably be a lot weaker. People live in the hope that we will easily offload the likes of Ade, Vlad, Soldado, Kaboul, Paulinho etc when the players just as likely to leave are Loris, Eriksen, Verts. If Kane bangs in another 30 goals next season and we are still pottering aimlessly around 6/7th and a huge bid comes in for him will he hang around.

I refuse to believe that "some" of the things written here, even the people writing them genuinely believe. I totally understand that some have championed Poch so much from the start that they dont want to lose face by admitting the obvious. It was exactly the same with AVB. We could lose 8-0 to Saudi Sportswashing Machine and there would be positive posts. Of course, its all about opinion and everyone is entitled to theirs. Im sure Poch is a lovely guy, I certainly dont dislike him. I just dont think he is the man to take us forward. I have said repeatedly that I am happy for Poch to prove me wrong, but with each passing week Im seeing the opposite.

Not being able to motivate or get any sort of peformance out of players who "will" still be here next season (despite what some may think) is my biggest worry.

 

[NWND]

The angry folks need to find a new club. I'm not trying to do the who's a better fan rant (so don't go there), what I am trying to say is ...

If you want a club that consistently (key word) finishes in the top 4, and consistently wins trophies, and you want that in the next 5 years, you have the wrong club. The modern game is rigged with money doping, its not just transfer fees, or wages, or CL income, but also the fees/wages you pay for players that will either just pad the squad or never actually play for you. Cheat$ki and City have players out on loan that would likely walk into our first team, think of the cost/wages of -> De Gea, Carrick, Di Maria, Mata, Rooney, RVP, Falcao, we would be delighted to have one of those players, yet our fans expect we get better results than them ...

Spurs to me is always about the moments, the moments this season we handed Cheat$ki/Scum their ass, Kane being the top striker in England, Hugo being ridiculous good. We remain a club that is still trying to run a fair business, we contribute more to Charity than almost every club above us, our fans don't sing about gas chambers or pelt bananas, at our core we try to play entertaining football.

5th and a cup final would have been an excellent season, lets not try to switch the goalposts at the end. 7th and a cup final is still a decent result, especially as I think the big achievement this season is making it extremely clear of who is not good enough even for that goal. Hopefully a good transfer window, good preseason sets us up, but next year will be tough as well.

My view is, I still remember us signing "we are going on a European tour" when we first believed we could get Europa under BMJ after years out, I remember so many seasons over by December/January, I remember really crud players .. and I mean really crud players (sides that Kaboul/Capoue/Dembele/Paulinho would walk into). In the past 8 or so years, I've been to Europa games, been to CL games (what a run), seen Hugo, King, Carrick, Berbatov, Modric, VDV, Bale, Eriksen play for my team and destroy teams on their day ..

Poch is a decent guy, doesn't seem to have the personality flaws of most since BMJ, we have seen that hint of what he hopes to do, he's here, lets back him/team and try to enjoy it for just a little bit ...

If I could jizz all over this post, I would.