Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[Jurgen the German]

I suppose my aims were not quite as static and dogmatic as yours then.

If anyone had said before the season that 6th is ok-ish, but 7th would be embarrassing would you have thought that "yeah, that makes sense"?

If it meant finishing below a resurgent Man United or Everton continuing their progress under Martinez, then of course not. As discusssed, if that meant finishing below a team whose manager we took and who lost several key players and were tipped for relegation, then yes I do think it's slightly embarrassing.

 

[billyiddo]

It is the only way of judging progress I think, the slightly worrying thing for me is that this season I have considered us to be lucky in a fair few more games than I have considered us to be unlucky.

no i think to judge progress in any meaningful way you have to look beyond where you finish in the league and weigh everything up. all the league table tells you is how you fared compared to the other 19 teams over 38 games - it doesn't give much consideration to a whole host of other factors which will have an effect on future performance

 

[Finney Is Back]

no i think to judge progress in any meaningful way you have to look beyond where you finish in the league and weigh everything up. all the league table tells you is how you fared compared to the other 19 teams over 38 games - it doesn't give much consideration to a whole host of other factors which will have an effect on future performance

What factors are they then?

 

[billyiddo]

well it's differs from club to club, season by season by season does't it? in 11/12 we finished 4th and purely by looking at the table you'd think we were set up well and progressing nicely - couldn't have been further from the truth really though could it? key players leaving, unused and/or aging squad players needing replacing - manager on his way out etc

this season you could scroll back a few posts and look at your discussion with Braineclipse to get an idea of some of the factors at play this season...

 

[thfcsteff]

What factors are they then?

Behind the scenes set-up, taking on (and winning) the battle to shift over-paid wasters out of the first team set-up, building a staff which is congruent and moving in the same direction from tea lady to chairman, establishing a CLEAR path and principle of squad building/team building going forwards, establishing that the days of player power are no more at the Lane. That's just for starters...

 

[Finney Is Back]

Behind the scenes set-up, taking on (and winning) the battle to shift over-paid wasters out of the first team set-up, building a staff which is congruent and moving in the same direction from tea lady to chairman, establishing a CLEAR path and principle of squad building/team building going forwards, establishing that the days of player power are no more at the Lane. That's just for starters...

But we don't know whether any of that is actually going on do we?....
Is Pochettino building the staff or Levy or Baldini? What is the clear path and principle? Was player power a problem before under Sherwood?... Hadn't he already dropped Kaboul and Capoue from his plans only for Pochettino to reinstate them?
I'm not stating that things haven't improved behind the scenes, but it's pure speculation and none of us actually know either way. What we do know however that it's looking as if we'll finish in our worst league position for about 5 or 6 years despite our manager not having to lose a single player from the squad against his wishes.

 

[90291Spur]

But we don't know whether any of that is actually going on do we?....
Is Pochettino building the staff or Levy or Baldini? What is the clear path and principle? Was player power a problem before under Sherwood?... Hadn't he already dropped Kaboul and Capoue from his plans only for Pochettino to reinstate them?
I'm not stating that things haven't improved behind the scenes, but it's pure speculation and none of us actually know either way. What we do know however that it's looking as if we'll finish in our worst league position for about 5 or 6 years despite our manager not having to lose a single player from the squad against his wishes.

So Poch out? What we do also know is that several young players gained vital first team experience, we know that several players have been shoved out by Poch and that Poch has his recruitment staff in place and hopefully he will be given the players he wants and needs.

 

[Cochise]

I expected top 6 this season, so all things considered we aren't too far off where I thought we'd be. Next season will be a good time to judge him, however our transfer strategy will play a part here. If when the window shuts we are still left with Kaboul, Ade, Paulinho etc then I'd find it hard to say Poch was supported.

 

[Baleforce]

I expected bottom half, I'm delighted with what MP has done

 

[Finney Is Back]

I expected bottom half, I'm delighted with what MP has done

Fcuk me!.... You must've been ecstatic after Sherwood got us up to 6th with 69 points with the same bunch (and not having 30+ million to spend) last season then?

 

[Finney Is Back]

So Poch out? What we do also know is that several young players gained vital first team experience, we know that several players have been shoved out by Poch and that Poch has his recruitment staff in place and hopefully he will be given the players he wants and needs.

No, I think he deserves the chance to try to continue to build further next season. My beef is just with those who try to downplay the brilliant job that Koeman has done at Southampton that's all.

 

[Baleforce]

Fcuk me!.... You must've been ecstatic after Sherwood got us up to 6th with 69 points with the same bunch (and not having 30+ million to spend) last season then?

nah, I hadn't clocked how brick the squad was at that point, the miracle AVB performed had blinded me

I never felt that sherwood was building anything, just going from game to game, reacting and relying on ade

 

[Roy1983]

No, I think he deserves the chance to try to continue to build further next season. My beef is just with those who try to downplay the brilliant job that Koeman has done at Southampton that's all.

Koeman is a brilliant example that puts to bed the myth that managers need time. He's a very good coach is the bottom line for me.

 

[NWND]

I don't quite understand this viewpoint.... Last year many people on here (I think including you, but I could be wrong here and apologies if so) were pretty clear in their belief that Sherwood had underachieved in taking us to 6th place in the PL with 69 points (from a starting point of 7th 16 games in to the season). Pochettino then inherited EXACTLY the same squad that Sherwood used with the additional benefit of Sherwood also having successfully brought Bentaleb and Kane into the first team picture, but with the added benefit of having a pre-season with the squad and also being able to spend £30 to £40 million in the transfer window.

It seems to me that the same people who think Pochettino is doing well are also the same people who were vocal that Sherwood did badly and I don't really understand that at all.

Most people on here thought we underacheived last season? You keep repeating this like it's gospel. Why did we underachieve last season?

I think you're talking absolute horse manure to be honest.

Who thought we underachieved last season? What was this based on? The fact that many pundits thought we'd challenge for the title because we spent £100m?

It turns out and is generally now accepted that we spunked £100m on very average players for the most part.

Soldado at £26m? He wasn't even as good as an aging Defoe. An actual downgrade on existing squad talent.
Lamela at £26m. Just a raw potential kid. Not ready for the first team in the BPL.
Paulinho at 17m. Everything about this guy says to me Jermaine Jenas. Anonymous but scores about 7 to 8 goals a season If played regularly. Occasionally will have a great game and people will think he's finally going go live up to the potential.
Capoue. Is he even as good as Livermore? Just a slow lumbering hulk but without Thudd's technique and passing ability to make up for it
Chiriches- don't know what to make of this guy. Certainly no upgrade on Caulker and we got rid of Dawson and kept him? Really?

So other than Eriksen who was actually pretty flaky in that first season to start with, and Chadli, who wasn't much better, they've all been massive disappointments.

We had some horrible results that season. I'll tell you why we even finished in a respectable league position that season, Ade.

Ade, whatever you say about him, is world class when he wants to be and for the second half of last season under Sherwood, he was almost unplayable with Eriksen.

We beat all the brick teams because of it but got massacred by anyone decent. Ade has the odd hot streak, usually when he feels he has something to prove. What it did was mask the true abomination our squad had become.

Painfully average. The performances under both AVB and Sherwood were painful to watch and we were an incredibly flakey team that season too, I'm pretty sure we got 9 points from 3 1-0 wins from dodgy penalties.

Fast forward to this season and with Ade back to his normal self, the team that ended last season, began this one and promptly stunk the place out. Half the team had to be relegated to the reserves and a load of academy players brought in, just to get a run of results together. The fact that it happened shows the early performances weren't down to Poch, his tactics or management. It was down to having average players with weak mentalities or poor attitudes. Poch found solutions to problems. He did not get his midfield target in Schneiderlin and it doesn't look like he rates Stambouli, so he turned to Mason and gave him his shot.

Ade and Soldado weren't doing anything so Kane was rewarded for his Europa form.

So no, I don't think we underachieved last season. I think we overachieved due to a half season of A-game Ade and Eriksen double-act that masked a multitude of squad sins. Sherwood has to be given some credit for that too.

 

[Baleforce]

Koeman is a brilliant example that puts to bed the myth that managers need time. He's a very good coach is the bottom line for me.

you can't genaralise like that, some managers need time in certain situations (Fergie), some managers walk in and lord it straight away (Clough)

there isn't one answer that works in every situation, we had a mid table squad which Ramos could only get into relegation trouble, Redknapp took it into the top 8, he then had a title challenging side he could only get to 4th, there are so many metrics to consider

 

[Baleforce]

Most people on here thought we underacheived last season? You keep repeating this like it's gospel. Why did we underachieve last season?

I think you're talking absolute horse manure to be honest.

Who thought we underachieved last season? What was this based on? The fact that many pundits thought we'd challenge for the title because we spent £100m?

It turns out and is generally now accepted that we spunked £100m on very average players for the most part.

Soldado at £26m? He wasn't even as good as an aging Defoe. An actual downgrade on existing squad talent.
Lamela at £26m. Just a raw potential kid. Not ready for the first team in the BPL.
Paulinho at 17m. Everything about this guy says to me Jermaine Jenas. Anonymous but scores about 7 to 8 goals a season If played regularly. Occasionally will have a great game and people will think he's finally going go live up to the potential.
Capoue. Is he even as good as Livermore? Just a slow lumbering hulk but without Thudd's technique and passing ability to make up for it
Chiriches- don't know what to make of this guy. Certainly no upgrade on Caulker and we got rid of Dawson and kept him? Really?

So other than Eriksen who was actually pretty flaky in that first season to start with, and Chadli, who wasn't much better, they've all been massive disappointments.

We had some horrible results that season. I'll tell you why we even finished in a respectable league position that season, Ade.

Ade, whatever you say about him, is world class when he wants to be and for the second half of last season under Sherwood, he was almost unplayable with Eriksen.

We beat all the crud teams because of it but got massacred by anyone decent. Ade has the odd hot streak, usually when he feels he has something to prove. What it did was mask the true abomination our squad had become.

Painfully average. The performances under both AVB and Sherwood were painful to watch and we were an incredibly flakey team that season too, I'm pretty sure we got 9 points from 3 1-0 wins from dodgy penalties.

Fast forward to this season and with Ade back to his normal self, the team that ended last season, began this one and promptly stunk the place out. Half the team had to be relegated to the reserves and a load of academy players brought in, just to get a run of results together. The fact that it happened shows the early performances weren't down to Poch, his tactics or management. It was down to having average players with weak mentalities or poor attitudes. Poch found solutions to problems. He did not get his midfield target in Schneiderlin and it doesn't look like he rates Stambouli, so he turned to Mason and gave him his shot.

Ade and Soldado weren't doing anything so Kane was rewarded for his Europa form.

So no, I don't think we underachieved last season. I think we overachieved due to a half season of A-game Ade and Eriksen double-act that masked a multitude of squad sins. Sherwood has to be given some credit for that too.

the considered opinion these days, imo, is that 100m is fudge all

 

[Roy1983]

you can't genaralise like that, some managers need time in certain situations (Fergie), some managers walk in and lord it straight away (Clough)

there isn't one answer that works in every situation, we had a mid table squad which Ramos could only get into relegation trouble, Redknapp took it into the top 8, he then had a title challenging side he could only get to 4th, there are so many metrics to consider

Granted however many feel it takes 2/3 seasons for a manager to stamp his authority on the club. I'm merely pointing out that Koeman disproves that theory because he is a very good manager.

 

[Baleforce]

Granted however many feel it takes 2/3 seasons for a manager to stamp his authority on the club. I'm merely pointing out that Koeman disproves that theory because he is a very good manager.

so far, what will the opinion be if Pelle has another bad run in august and they have a rotten start

you shouldnt judge negatively after one season, you shouldn't judge positively either

 

[90291Spur]

No, I think he deserves the chance to try to continue to build further next season. My beef is just with those who try to downplay the brilliant job that Koeman has done at Southampton that's all.

Nice. I agree with you. Koeman has done a spectacular job at Soton. Especially when you consider the opinions of many knowledgable football folk that the player sales of the summer would rip the heart out of the team. I don't feel we can make a proper assessment of Poch until at least next year.

Bear in mind Koeman is nine years older than Poch and started managing in 2001 and is on his 7th club while Poch started in 2009 we are his third.

 

[NWND]

Koeman is a brilliant example that puts to bed the myth that managers need time. He's a very good coach is the bottom line for me.

He will need time though. This season has been almost perfect for them the issues will be when they have a bad run. They haven't really had a bad one. They lost a string of games where they had a tough fixture list.

Granted however many feel it takes 2/3 seasons for a manager to stamp his authority on the club. I'm merely pointing out that Koeman disproves that theory because he is a very good manager.

Do you think Koeman would have done a better job than Poch at Spurs this season, though, given the bad atmosphere at the club, the bloated, unbalanced, expensive journeymsn squad and lack of scouting and analysis?

Do you think that having had a few Baldini suggestions thrown his way (let's not pretend that Poch wanted or rated the majority of last summer's purchases given how little they've been played). That's an interesting question.

BTW, I don't think people would be questioning Kormans achievements or trying to provide some context about the relative pressures, expectations and complications of both jobs, if people weren't pointing at Koeman and saying "if he can waltz in and take Saints from 8th to top 6, then Poch will be an embarrassment if he can't take Spurs from 6th to top 4???