Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[Roy1983]

I hope he gets the time and what he has been doing recently suggests to me that he knows he has at least another season, perhaps two. And we must remember he is still relatively young and relatively inexperienced as a head coach. He too is gaining valuable knowledge of how to improve in his job.

Indeed. If we're still losing at home to the likes of Stoke or Villa in two years time then I'd say Levy might have a decision to make but I'm really keen to see how he goes about his business this summer.

 

[indianspur]

Southampton under Koeman after 32 games so far have already reached the 56 points total that they achieved after 38 games last season under Poch....considering the massive upheaval they had in the summer by selling 4 of their best players and also being without Rodriguez for the whole campaign, thats quite an achievement by Koeman.

 

[NWND]

Southampton under Koeman after 32 games so far have already reached the 56 points total that they achieved after 38 games last season under Poch....considering the massive upheaval they had in the summer by selling 4 of their best players and also being without Rodriguez for the whole campaign, thats quite an achievement by Koeman.

It certainly is, but it's also a completely different job to the one Poch had to deal with at Spurs:

*Catastrophic expectations. Everyone had Southampton for the drop, which is in hindsight pretty stupid considering they kept a good core in Schneiderlin, Fonte, Clyne and added some quality replacements in Pelle, Tadic, Mane, Elia. There was absolutely zero pressure on Koeman and Southampton.

*Settled and embedded style of play over a variety of seasons. He just told the existing squad to keep doing what they've been doing with a few adjustments.

*Happy camp, no cliques, good atmosphere, settled background staff, great scouting and analysis set-up.

By contrast, Poch had an unsettled and unbalanced squad full of expensive signings largely purchased in the last couple of seasons, a squad dominated by some big and difficult characters in Ade, Kaboul etc. A club at war with itself, with discontented fans, the fall out from AVB and Sherwood, zero scouting infrastructure in place and expectations of a top four push.

He was clearly tasked with attempting to get something out of the summer 2013 investment and started with these players, attempting to get a performance out of them before getting rid and turning to the kids, it's a massive job to turn around some very poor decisions going back to the end of the Redknapp era.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It certainly is, but it's also a completely different job to the one Poch had to deal with at Spurs:

*Catastrophic expectations. Everyone had Southampton for the drop, which is in hindsight pretty stupid considering they kept a good core in Schneiderlin, Fonte, Clyne and added some quality replacements in Pelle, Tadic, Mane, Elia. There was absolutely zero pressure on Koeman and Southampton.

*Settled and embedded style of play over a variety of seasons. He just told the existing squad to keep doing what they've been doing with a few adjustments.

*Happy camp, no cliques, good atmosphere, settled background staff, great scouting and analysis set-up.

By contrast, Poch had an unsettled and unbalanced squad full of expensive signings largely purchased in the last couple of seasons, a squad dominated by some big and difficult characters in Ade, Kaboul etc. A club at war with itself, with discontented fans, the fall out from AVB and Sherwood, zero scouting infrastructure in place and expectations of a top four push.

He was clearly tasked with attempting to get something out of the summer 2013 investment and started with these players, attempting to get a performance out of them before getting rid and turning to the kids, it's a massive job to turn around some very poor decisions going back to the end of the Redknapp era.

Not to mention £70 odd million they have spent on players

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Not to mention £70 odd million they have spent on players

They didn't spend it though, they re-invested the money they received from selling off Lallana etc. Their net spend must be close to 0.

Just like we tried to do with Bale. They just done it much better than us.

 

[Baleforce]

They didn't spend it though, they re-invested the money they received from selling off Lallana etc. Their net spend must be close to 0.

Just like we tried to do with Bale. They just done it much better than us.

it's all relative, expectations were different

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

it's all relative, expectations were different

surely the aim (nomatter what the differences in expectation were) of the re-investement from both clubs was to push on and improve from where they were previous to selling said best players?

They've pushed on. We haven't.

IMO of course!

 

[Baleforce]

surely the aim (nomatter what the differences in expectation were) of the re-investement from both clubs was to push on and improve from where they were previous to selling said best players?

They've pushed on. We haven't.

IMO of course!

agree with the point, agree we definitely haven't, not sure on them myself, lets see where they are the middle of next season

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

agree with the point, agree we definitely haven't, not sure on them myself, lets see where they are the middle of next season

Well yeh, obviously this could be a one off (and I've spent the entire season myself telling people that they will eventually fall away - finally coming to terms that its not going to happen).

But based off the little evidence we have at the moment it certainly looks like they've re-invested better than us. Next season will be interesting for them as you say though.

 

[braineclipse]

It certainly is, but it's also a completely different job to the one Poch had to deal with at Spurs:

*Catastrophic expectations. Everyone had Southampton for the drop, which is in hindsight pretty stupid considering they kept a good core in Schneiderlin, Fonte, Clyne and added some quality replacements in Pelle, Tadic, Mane, Elia. There was absolutely zero pressure on Koeman and Southampton.

*Settled and embedded style of play over a variety of seasons. He just told the existing squad to keep doing what they've been doing with a few adjustments.

*Happy camp, no cliques, good atmosphere, settled background staff, great scouting and analysis set-up.

By contrast, Poch had an unsettled and unbalanced squad full of expensive signings largely purchased in the last couple of seasons, a squad dominated by some big and difficult characters in Ade, Kaboul etc. A club at war with itself, with discontented fans, the fall out from AVB and Sherwood, zero scouting infrastructure in place and expectations of a top four push.

He was clearly tasked with attempting to get something out of the summer 2013 investment and started with these players, attempting to get a performance out of them before getting rid and turning to the kids, it's a massive job to turn around some very poor decisions going back to the end of the Redknapp era.

Agreed. I actually think Pochettino has overseen bigger changes in terms of the starting 11 than Koeman, despite their sales. Taking nothing away from Koeman who has done a brilliant job this season for Southampton.

In our current starting 11 the players that were seen as first choice when he took over last summer were: Lloris, Walker, Vertonghen and Eriksen. Even out of those Walker has been injured much of this season and Vertonghen was only seen as first choice by a portion of the fans, many others wanted him out or upgraded on. Rose, Fazio/Dier, Bentaleb, Mason, Chadli, Lamela/Townsend and Kane were either seen as squad players or downright disposable by some.

Plenty of changes still to make come the summer I think. But we're much closer to a settled 11 now than we were last summer. And we're actually in a position where we could strengthen in 2-3 positions in that starting 11 and build from what we have.

This was our most used 11 last season according to whoscored: Lloris, Walker, Dawson, Vlad, Rose, Dembele, Paulinho, Townsend, Eriksen, Sigurdsson, Soldado.
This was our team in the last league game last season: Lloris, Naughton, Dawson, Chiriches, Rose, Sigurdsson, Sandro, Paulinho, Eriksen, Kane, Adebayor.

We were in a real hodgepodge situation. Much of a muchness and all that. Two head coaches, Baldini just a season in, struggling new signings and some aging (and failing) settled first team players. I mean, look at those two line-ups from last season, a real "where do we even start" situation and Pochettino has overseen a transition that's been painful at times, but I think the scope of that often goes unappreciated by both some fans and the media.

They didn't spend it though, they re-invested the money they received from selling off Lallana etc. Their net spend must be close to 0.

Just like we tried to do with Bale. They just done it much better than us.

This is true. Again, a lot of credit both to Southampton and Koeman. Hopefully whatever part Mitchell played in that was a substantial positive one and he'll be able to do similar for us.

But, Koeman was in the situation where they lost some key first team players and under him they spent that money to replace those players, and they did so well. Pochettino was in the situation where after losing key first team players and having that money to spend it wasn't spent successfully and we were in a bit of a mess as a result of that. His job was to sort out that mess, without having much money to spend. For me looking like perhaps the harder task.

 

[kanoute16]

Unintelligent because it's a different opinion to you? Fact is eriksen has been a hugely influential player, getting us many many points with last minute goals. Chadli has a great scoring record this season too. Yet what exactly have bentaleb and mason offered? Protected our defence? No. Assisted/scored a decent amount? No. Offered s link too our attacking uni? No.

Ah the old "different opinion" statement! How I have missed it! It's unintelligent in the context of your agenda. Chadli and Eriksen were equally as poor on Saturday and have been for a few weeks but they are spared your bile?

You don't like mason! Fair enough but as I have said he was not the problem on Saturday IMO. I don't particularly like him, we need better but why single one player out? They were all bad and therefore so was the whole team including the manager

 

[Jurgen the German]

They didn't spend it though, they re-invested the money they received from selling off Lallana etc. Their net spend must be close to 0.

Just like we tried to do with Bale. They just done it much better than us.

Exactly. When we spent that money, every Spurs fan said "well we just re-invested it, we didn't spend it". Should be the same for Soton too. I think it will be quite embarrassing if we finish below them purely for the reason that we poached or Poched their manager excuse the pun.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Exactly. When we spent that money, every Spurs fan said "well we just re-invested it, we didn't spend it". Should be the same for Soton too. I think it will be quite embarrassing if we finish below them purely for the reason that we poached or Poched their manager excuse the pun.

I agree - i also hope Poch feels some intrinsic pressure on this because I do NOT want to lose my top 6 bet!

 

[braineclipse]

Exactly. When we spent that money, every Spurs fan said "well we just re-invested it, we didn't spend it". Should be the same for Soton too. I think it will be quite embarrassing if we finish below them purely for the reason that we poached or Poched their manager excuse the pun.

Perhaps I'm not easily embarrassed, but for me it doesn't matter much. Regardless we're probably talking a difference of 2-3 points and regardless our finishing position will be ok-ish and their season will be fantastic based on expectations before the season started. I would praise Southampton rather than call it an embarrassment on our part.

We didn't poach Pochettino looking for a quick fix. We've clearly had some long term goals in mind both when we hired him and during this season. I actually think the continued progress Southampton have seen after Pochettino left is somewhat positive, means that despite the sales he left them in a decent condition. And the work he did with the spine of the team that did stay behind last summer was probably quite good.

 

[Rorschach]

Exactly. When we spent that money, every Spurs fan said "well we just re-invested it, we didn't spend it". Should be the same for Soton too. I think it will be quite embarrassing if we finish below them purely for the reason that we poached or Poched their manager excuse the pun.

There is no excusing that I'm afraid.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Southampton under Koeman after 32 games so far have already reached the 56 points total that they achieved after 38 games last season under Poch....considering the massive upheaval they had in the summer by selling 4 of their best players and also being without Rodriguez for the whole campaign, thats quite an achievement by Koeman.

He's done a good job, but like Swansea moving from Martinez-Rodgers-Laudrupt-Monk, it's all about the foundations.

Southampton have a philosophy, a system and a production line coming from their academy. These are things we didn't have (except the academy, which McDermott and Inglethorpe have worked wonders with getting up to and above standard over the last decade).

Poch looks like he's trying to replicate that 'whole club approach' with us. But he inherited a mess - a club that had had 3 completely contrasting managers in 2.5 years, players who had been bought for different ones of them, and a squad mentally shell-shocked.

Hopefully when Poch and co have finished, we'll be able to change coaches and sell off our best players without falling apart. That sort of resilience would be a great legacy.

 

[metalgear]

Southampton under Koeman after 32 games so far have already reached the 56 points total that they achieved after 38 games last season under Poch....considering the massive upheaval they had in the summer by selling 4 of their best players and also being without Rodriguez for the whole campaign, thats quite an achievement by Koeman.

fantastic achievement by the club, koeman and the players.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Agreed. I actually think Pochettino has overseen bigger changes in terms of the starting 11 than Koeman, despite their sales. Taking nothing away from Koeman who has done a brilliant job this season for Southampton.

In our current starting 11 the players that were seen as first choice when he took over last summer were: Lloris, Walker, Vertonghen and Eriksen. Even out of those Walker has been injured much of this season and Vertonghen was only seen as first choice by a portion of the fans, many others wanted him out or upgraded on. Rose, Fazio/Dier, Bentaleb, Mason, Chadli, Lamela/Townsend and Kane were either seen as squad players or downright disposable by some.

Plenty of changes still to make come the summer I think. But we're much closer to a settled 11 now than we were last summer. And we're actually in a position where we could strengthen in 2-3 positions in that starting 11 and build from what we have.

This was our most used 11 last season according to whoscored: Lloris, Walker, Dawson, Vlad, Rose, Dembele, Paulinho, Townsend, Eriksen, Sigurdsson, Soldado.
This was our team in the last league game last season: Lloris, Naughton, Dawson, Chiriches, Rose, Sigurdsson, Sandro, Paulinho, Eriksen, Kane, Adebayor.

We were in a real hodgepodge situation. Much of a muchness and all that. Two head coaches, Baldini just a season in, struggling new signings and some aging (and failing) settled first team players. I mean, look at those two line-ups from last season, a real "where do we even start" situation and Pochettino has overseen a transition that's been painful at times, but I think the scope of that often goes unappreciated by both some fans and the media.

This is true. Again, a lot of credit both to Southampton and Koeman. Hopefully whatever part Mitchell played in that was a substantial positive one and he'll be able to do similar for us.

But, Koeman was in the situation where they lost some key first team players and under him they spent that money to replace those players, and they did so well. Pochettino was in the situation where after losing key first team players and having that money to spend it wasn't spent successfully and we were in a bit of a mess as a result of that. His job was to sort out that mess, without having much money to spend. For me looking like perhaps the harder task.

I completely disagree. Koeman lost 5 or 6 first choice players from a team that had been seen to overachieve in finishing 8th last season. Yes he had the money to reinvest but he was doing so from a position of managing a club who weren’t in Europe and never are, a club who aren’t big wage payers, a club who aren’t considered to be particularly big and a club who were tipped to be fighting at the wrong end of the table. Additionally they were a club who were hemorrhaging their best players. I also disagree that Koeman has simply taken Pochettino’s style and continued it. I think Koeman’s style at Southampton is quite different to the way that Pochettino had them playing, specifically in the fact that they play a very defensive game and look to attack on the break. Pochettino’s Southampton team instead played attacking football and looked to turn over the ball as high up the pitch as possible.
Pochettino on the other hand inherited a team that it seemed many on here thought had underachieved in finishing in 6th place last season, 13 points ahead of Southampton. Additionally Pochettino didn’t have to lose a single player from that team/squad. It was Pochettino who then decided to sell certain players and replace them with alternatives.

If you look at our best/most played team this season:

------------------------------------------Lloris
Walker-----------Fazio/Dier--------------------Vertonghen------Rose
----------------------Bentaleb-------------------------Mason
-------Townsend/Lamela--------Dembele/Chadli----------Eriksen
--------------------------------------------Kane

Every member of the team above other than Fazio/Dier were at the club last season (and I think the Fazio/Dier position is now probably the weakest in our team)

Pochettino chose to sign 6 players. The problem was that 5 of those 6 players (Vorm, Fazio, Davies, Stambouli, Yedlin) were simply not good enough to improve the first team, the other (Dier) has done reasonably well for a young player but hasn’t exactly set the World alight. Additionally it looks as though 3 of the signings we made are rather unsuited to the way that Pochettino wants his team to play as they are all too slow (Fazio, Davies, Stambouli)
I think we are still at least 5 players short of having a chance of finishing in a CL qualifying spot. We need a better centre half than Dier or Fazio, a better central midfield starter than Mason (who I think would be a valuable cover player), a better option on either side to play as the wide men in the 3 behind the forward and an alternative option to Kane to play at number 9 up front (as we can’t expect a 21 year old to carry us for the whole season).

This is true. Again, a lot of credit both to Southampton and Koeman. Hopefully whatever part Mitchell played in that was a substantial positive one and he'll be able to do similar for us.

But, Koeman was in the situation where they lost some key first team players and under him they spent that money to replace those players, and they did so well. Pochettino was in the situation where after losing key first team players and having that money to spend it wasn't spent successfully and we were in a bit of a mess as a result of that. His job was to sort out that mess, without having much money to spend. For me looking like perhaps the harder task.

Again I think this ignores the fact that we finished 2 places and 13 points above Southampton last season and (as I said before) many on here seemed to think we underachieved in finishing there.

Yes Pochettino has brought about some good changes at Spurs, but I don’t see those changes as being as positive as some on here make out and I certainly don't see them as being as big as some are insinuating.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Perhaps I'm not easily embarrassed, but for me it doesn't matter much. Regardless we're probably talking a difference of 2-3 points and regardless our finishing position will be ok-ish and their season will be fantastic based on expectations before the season started. I would praise Southampton rather than call it an embarrassment on our part.

We didn't poach Pochettino looking for a quick fix. We've clearly had some long term goals in mind both when we hired him and during this season. I actually think the continued progress Southampton have seen after Pochettino left is somewhat positive, means that despite the sales he left them in a decent condition. And the work he did with the spine of the team that did stay behind last summer was probably quite good.

As Finney says, we finished ahead of them by some distance, but they look to have improved despite losing a lot of players. Whereas Poch hasn't lost anyone from a team who finished 6th. I certainly wouldn't say 7th is "progress" if that is where we finish this season. I fully accept that he is meant to be here for the long haul, but you must have some short term targets.

 

[Finney Is Back]

He's done a good job, but like Swansea moving from Martinez-Rodgers-Laudrupt-Monk, it's all about the foundations.

Southampton have a philosophy, a system and a production line coming from their academy. These are things we didn't have (except the academy, which McDermott and Inglethorpe have worked wonders with getting up to and above standard over the last decade).

Poch looks like he's trying to replicate that 'whole club approach' with us. But he inherited a mess - a club that had had 3 completely contrasting managers in 2.5 years, players who had been bought for different ones of them, and a squad mentally shell-shocked.

Hopefully when Poch and co have finished, we'll be able to change coaches and sell off our best players without falling apart. That sort of resilience would be a great legacy.

Again - this conveniently ignores the fact that an apparently rubbish manager (as I keep hearing Sherwood is) was able to get us to 6th place last season, 2 places and 13 points ahead of Southampton. It also doesn't take into account the fact that Sherwood didn't buy or sell a single player.

Remember that Southampton have also now had 3 managers in 2.5 years, I also think they are managers with different philosophies, each of Adkins, Pochettino and Koeman had the Southampton team playing in a different way. Remember also that Pochettino was only at Southampton for about 15 months.... Considering that and what you say above about a legacy then should we have instead got Adkins in to oversee our revolution?