I believe the short term targets would have been more on the 'assess the squad and lay down foundations' side rather than 'make sure we we finish higher than last season'
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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked
- Thread starter DubaiSpur
- Start date
I believe the short term targets would have been more on the 'assess the squad and lay down foundations' side rather than 'make sure we we finish higher than last season'
Jurgen the German
Erik Thorstvedt
Not higher necessarily, I would have been happy with 6th.
I think putting so much importance on the difference between 7th and 6th (i assume the above post means you would not be happy with the season if we finish 7th?) is counter productive to what i consider the main importance of this season, which (as above) is sorting the squad out and laying the foundations for the coming season (s).
ALtottenham_hotspur
Jamie Redknapp
I dont care if we finish behind Southampton this season, we deserve to finish where we finish.
Im just glad that POCH is learning, this season was always going to be up and down. I admit there are times when I question his selection but I truly believe he's given everyone at the club a chance and a lot have let him and themselves down.
As the season has gone on POCH has outcast the players that are simply not good enough. If you break down our squad its very average with only a handful of very good or potentially very good players.
I hate big clear outs and huge numbers of players signed that just proves that a club has been run poorly, sadly I can see us shipping out at least 7 maybe even 9 players this summer. This is never good for team spirit but hopefully with us promoting a number of youngsters this can help keep the team spirit.
This was never going to be a one season job, we just dont have the money to chuck at to fix the problem (unlike Man U) I think next season again could be up and down as more youngsters get use to the premier league, I truthfully think it will be POCH's 3rd season in charge before we see real progress. I doubt many Spurs fans will give him time and then we go back to replacing the manager and the circle of life starts again lol
Im just glad that POCH is learning, this season was always going to be up and down. I admit there are times when I question his selection but I truly believe he's given everyone at the club a chance and a lot have let him and themselves down.
As the season has gone on POCH has outcast the players that are simply not good enough. If you break down our squad its very average with only a handful of very good or potentially very good players.
I hate big clear outs and huge numbers of players signed that just proves that a club has been run poorly, sadly I can see us shipping out at least 7 maybe even 9 players this summer. This is never good for team spirit but hopefully with us promoting a number of youngsters this can help keep the team spirit.
This was never going to be a one season job, we just dont have the money to chuck at to fix the problem (unlike Man U) I think next season again could be up and down as more youngsters get use to the premier league, I truthfully think it will be POCH's 3rd season in charge before we see real progress. I doubt many Spurs fans will give him time and then we go back to replacing the manager and the circle of life starts again lol
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Directly comparing us to Southampton last season and this season to judge our progress is obviously not going to make us look good. There are 19 other teams in the league, someone's bound to be doing much better one season than the previous season. Would be equal to directly compare the points difference between ourselves and Liverpool last season and this season and say that we've improved massively. Not a very useful approach.
Finney: You're ignoring my point by saying that players like Mason, Kane, Townsend/Lamela etc were here last season. Yes they were, but they weren't first choice players, so there's been a real transition. Seen not least in just how extremely young our starting 11s have been this season. That transition Pochettino has overseen has been different to what Koeman has done at Southampton. My point is that I think fans and the media are underestimating the magnitude of that transition because those players weren't new signings replacing established first choice players.
That's why I compared our line-up(s) last season to our line-up this season, and then compared that to Southampton's situation. I think that's just as illustrative for the amount of changes to the team as listing the number of players bought and sold. It's a different viewpoint to the bought/sold argument, and just claiming "they were already here" is kinda showing exactly what I'm claiming - people are underestimating the size of the transition seen under Pochettino.
Finney: You're ignoring my point by saying that players like Mason, Kane, Townsend/Lamela etc were here last season. Yes they were, but they weren't first choice players, so there's been a real transition. Seen not least in just how extremely young our starting 11s have been this season. That transition Pochettino has overseen has been different to what Koeman has done at Southampton. My point is that I think fans and the media are underestimating the magnitude of that transition because those players weren't new signings replacing established first choice players.
That's why I compared our line-up(s) last season to our line-up this season, and then compared that to Southampton's situation. I think that's just as illustrative for the amount of changes to the team as listing the number of players bought and sold. It's a different viewpoint to the bought/sold argument, and just claiming "they were already here" is kinda showing exactly what I'm claiming - people are underestimating the size of the transition seen under Pochettino.
Jurgen the German
Erik Thorstvedt
I'm not disagreeing with you on building foundations etc, but I also believe that short term targets are at the very least as important.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Sherwood and Pochettino have had rather different approaches though. They've worked with fairly different line-ups despite working with fairly similar squads. That's why I'm saying there's been a considerable transition.
Pochettino's approach really does seem like one that will get results slightly more long term. One of the best things Sherwood did for our short term results was getting Adebayor going, never a long term solution imo. Comparing the short term results of a short term approach with the short term results of a more long term approach doesn't seem like a great way to look at things for me.
Once again... We have "the youngest team in Europe" (tm). This illustrates again the transition we've seen under Pochettino (and in part under Sherwood before him). This should explicitly be taken into account imo.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
But is there really that big a difference between 6th and 7th that evaluating 7th (a couple points behind 6th) as "embarrassing" if 6th is accepted? Is that a good way to evaluate those short term targets?
Jurgen the German
Erik Thorstvedt
Yes there is a difference IMO, just as there is a difference between 17th and 18th (not quite as drastic but you get the idea). And yes to the 2nd part because we have a manager who used to manage a team who potentially may finish above us despite us taking their manager and said side losing several key players.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
But again you ignore the fact that Koeman was FORCED into making his changes, Pochettino made his changes by choice. He chose to make changes to a team who apparently underachieved in finishing 6th last season on 69 points. Don't get me wrong I don't think Pochettino has done particularly badly, there have been some highs (i.e. the home games against Chelsea and Arsenal) as well as lows. I just think it is churlish to say anything other than the fact that Koeman has outperformed him this season by a very large amount considering both of their starting positions.
When you say short term targets do you just mean league position?
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
I suppose my aims were not quite as static and dogmatic as yours then.
If anyone had said before the season that 6th is ok-ish, but 7th would be embarrassing would you have thought that "yeah, that makes sense"?
No, I don't ignore that. I'm simply stating that there has been a big transition, and that it goes a bit unnoticed. As seen in this thread when I pointed it out and the initial reaction is "no, look at all the transfer dealings".
He chose to make those changes presumably because he thinks that's the best for the club long term? How does that make the transition any smaller or any less difficult?
For me actually the fact that Pochettino was willing to accept the short term risks with choosing a transition like this rather than sticking with the tried and tested "almost good enough" players is a positive for me, not a negative, because I think we needed that transition and (like Pocettino I assume) I think it will do us good long term.
Both for Koeman and for Pochettino those transitions should be kept in mind, and it should (imo) lead to more patience with them - even though Koeman hasn't needed much patience.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
I'll spell it out for you....
2013-2014
Team position points
Spurs 6th 69
Saints 8th 56
Ask any neutral which manager has done a better job this year out of Koeman and Pochettino.... If you get even one response in ten that says Pochettino then you might want to think about medication for them.
The list of managers in the last 7 years who took an unfancied team (that generally in hindsight had a decent foundation) to a completely unexpected level/result is pretty big. The number of those managers that still had their job at the end of second season, less so.
I'm not trying to play down Koeman's achievements, but it will really be a case of ... where will they be this time next year.
Poch for me has struggled with us, partially because his system requires very specific players (something I'm not completely sold on), and partially because he is still on a learning curve (young manager).
Reality seems to be, you could put anyone in charge of Spurs and we would achieve between 5th-7th in league purely by virtue of squad quality, for Poch to be seen as something better, he needs to have the team in the 4th-5th placing by next season.
I'm not trying to play down Koeman's achievements, but it will really be a case of ... where will they be this time next year.
Poch for me has struggled with us, partially because his system requires very specific players (something I'm not completely sold on), and partially because he is still on a learning curve (young manager).
Reality seems to be, you could put anyone in charge of Spurs and we would achieve between 5th-7th in league purely by virtue of squad quality, for Poch to be seen as something better, he needs to have the team in the 4th-5th placing by next season.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
What are those players though?
- Fit
- Technical
- Disciplined
- Hardworking
- Intelligent
All qualities that almost any coach dreams of, and who would be malleable/useful to whoever succeeds Poch
For decades we've relied on mavericks and showboats to carry us (when they are in the mood). The individualism and spice boy mentality that Poch is purging is what has perennially held us back. For once in my lifetime we're showing signs of becoming greater than the sum of our parts - something that teams better than us usually always are
The reason I'm not sold on it is two fold
- VDV as example was a great player for us, yet would not likely fit in with Poch, that to me is a huge loss to potential entertainment of the team (while completely agreeing that it might lead to more consistent results)
- Not sure it works in our price range, building lower level system based PL teams is doable, you focus on energy/attitude. To build a full squad of specific type players at higher level, i.e. players have to fit the system, no flexibility to change system for right player, means you will struggle to find options, and you either overpay or lose out (MS as example).
My biggest worry re Poch is "is he flexible enough" to make minor adjustments based on available personnel, opposition, etc. To me Martinez is a perfect example of a good manager who just isn't flexible enough and ends up with really long bad runs as a result.
glorygloryeze
Tom Huddlestone
I support Poch but have similar concerns too...
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
I don't quite understand this viewpoint.... Last year many people on here (I think including you, but I could be wrong here and apologies if so) were pretty clear in their belief that Sherwood had underachieved in taking us to 6th place in the PL with 69 points (from a starting point of 7th 16 games in to the season). Pochettino then inherited EXACTLY the same squad that Sherwood used with the additional benefit of Sherwood also having successfully brought Bentaleb and Kane into the first team picture, but with the added benefit of having a pre-season with the squad and also being able to spend £30 to £40 million in the transfer window.
It seems to me that the same people who think Pochettino is doing well are also the same people who were vocal that Sherwood did badly and I don't really understand that at all.
Jurgen the German
Erik Thorstvedt
No, I mean style of play, home form, away form, overall level of performance etc. But it's ultimately tied in with the league performance. I've always believed that the final league position is the best way of judging progress and/or how good a team is in relation to the other teams.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
It is the only way of judging progress I think, the slightly worrying thing for me is that this season I have considered us to be lucky in a fair few more games than I have considered us to be unlucky.