Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[SylDave]

So I see, yours got in just as I was typing. I didnt read it until I posted, and then it was a bit of a deja vu situation....




We need to play like we know what we are doing. Like Poch has control of everything, and is pushing everyone to a design, to a plan. We need to look like we used to, basically.

I doubt thats going to happen. Regardless of result I suspect its going to be as open and haphazard as it has been all season.

And if we win, Poch gets more time, and no progress is forthcoming - Liverpool will rip us to pieces. And then what? THEN he goes? THEN we stumble on?

I hate talk of "must win" and that, of arbitrary targets, but right now I think we need to see a complete change in approach - or else.

This, every win with a diamond is harming the club as it’s prolonging the agony, when we win it will make Poch double down that there is something to work on, we need a complete change of approach for long term success one way or the other.

 

[Dicko]

Different formations and selections each week is killing us. I don't get why we aren't sticking with the 4231 that worked so well for a long period.
We know 2 in centre mid makes us more solid, Kane has to be up top on his own, 3 behind him with Son out wide etc. etc.
City and Liverpool seem to play virtually the same system every game, playing the best side and swapping in and out one or two players when necessary due to injury or rest.
Right now I have no idea what Poch thinks is our best 11 or formation, despite all of us knowing it by heart for the last 1-2 years.

 

[tynesidespur]

The diamond wasn't ok. It was obvious we couldn't keep playing like that for 90, in fact we lasted 30 mins. Three midfielders doing the job of 4/5 against quality opposition is never going to work. He had them putting out fires and then trying to press. We attacked well but as soon as they got the ball we were wide open.

I can't fault the players cause they tried their hardest, but the only way it was going to work was if we took a 3 goal lead, changed formation personnel and then tried to control the game. That is not a tactical game plan.

I don't agree with either of you about that opening period.

I'd love to see the xG for that opening 30-35 mins because as I recall Gnabry got in behind in the opening minute and they then did very little after that other than a speculative 25 yard shot from Kimmich which resulted in a goal. We pressed, we were connected and compact and we created 4 good goal-scoring chances but only took one (Kane, Son twice, N'Dombele). After that I agree the intensity dropped but come on - I've seen Spurs play at that intensity for the last 5 years - it should've been no problem to keep that up even for an hour. It doesn't matter on the system - pressing is all about shutting off options closest to the man in possession, suffocating the opposition and allowing them no out-ball which we were doing. It really shouldn't be a problem for players to cover that ground - its the same size of pitch whichever system you play.

 

[StephenH]

Sadly last night was and should be the coup de grace for the current management setup.

Though it looks like we are stuck with them - it must be because of financial considerations.

 

[AdamB]

Big moment for me is an hour before kick-off on Saturday - that will show to a large extent whether he's learned much from last night or not. If its 4-3-1-2 again, then I'll have lost hope in Poch. If last night doesnt cause us to revert back to our best formation (4231) then I dont know what will....and without it, I dont see us getting remotely close to top 4 this season

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I don't agree with either of you about that opening period.

I'd love to see the xG for that opening 30-35 mins because as I recall Gnabry got in behind in the opening minute and they then did very little after that other than a speculative 25 yard shot from Kimmich which resulted in a goal. We pressed, we were connected and compact and we created 4 good goal-scoring chances but only took one (Kane, Son twice, N'Dombele). After that I agree the intensity dropped but come on - I've seen Spurs play at that intensity for the last 5 years - it should've been no problem to keep that up even for an hour. It doesn't matter on the system - pressing is all about shutting off options closest to the man in possession, suffocating the opposition and allowing them no out-ball which we were doing. It really shouldn't be a problem for players to cover that ground - its the same size of pitch whichever system you play.

When you are pressing as a unit, yes. When you are entirely disjointed, and basically winging it, and continually getting caught with opposition players in absolute acres of space - you basically run twice as much to make up the difference.

And thats how it looked to me. Effective in attack, in so much as we were getting bodies forward and looking dangerous, but really it was like 11 strangers out there playing on instinct, not a well drilled unit.

And defensively that showed quite blatantly, though I think its true of the attack too.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Sadly last night was and should be the coup de grace for the current management setup.

Though it looks like we are stuck with them - it must be because of financial considerations.

I think Poch has earned the chance to turn it around, loyalty goes both ways and I doubt its financial at this point.

That said, I think he really needs to show he has a handle on it, and I wouldnt be at all surprised if Levy is giving serious thought as to whether or not Poch is at the end of the road.

Big moment for me is an hour before kick-off on Saturday - that will show to a large extent whether he's learned much from last night or not. If its 4-3-1-2 again, then I'll have lost hope in Poch. If last night doesnt cause us to revert back to our best formation (4231) then I dont know what will....and without it, I dont see us getting remotely close to top 4 this season

What worries me is that even if he does switch back, he has singularly failed to either identify the issue before it was a crisis, or do enough to make the diamond actually work.

He seems to have completely missed the disaster unfolding, almost unforgivable really, so even if he does switch back I think questions about his management will linger for a while yet.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Sadly last night was and should be the coup de grace for the current management setup.

Though it looks like we are stuck with them - it must be because of financial considerations.

Should not have given him such a big long contract. Same as with players they go stale after a few years.

 

[fernadez]

I don’t disagree at all about Son needing to play on the left, it’s his best position, but he is inconsistent those 20 goals come in bursts of form when is almost at Messi and Ronaldo levels, he then goes 10 games doing sweet fa, yes he can catch the eye with a run or piece of skill in those games but there is no end product, is it just a coincidence that Alli has never reached the same heights with Son in the team, messing with his position to accommodate Son then has a knock on effect on Eriksen.

I agree.

Wingers are streaky by nature though as they play risk v reward. It can be accommodated cause the opposition still recognise the threat, the width is still there and you have other players to take advantage.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Should not have given him such a big long contract. Same as with players they go stale after a few years.

He earned the contract, Ive no issue with it at all. We wanted stability, and there was no reason to think things were going to go this bad this quickly.

The interesting thing will be around what clauses there are in the contract around performance and dismissal etc.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Had time to digest it in cold light of day.

Whilst this has been coming for a while it has to be put in perspective that if we win our next 3 CL games, we might be effectively through before we face Bayern again...as scary as theta thought might be...

Also, we are not far from the holy grail of top 4. Levy might look at that and say, give him time...

..and that might depend on the REAL reasons for how the team has gotten to this point in the first place:

- if it's because Poch HAS actually been backed over the last 2/3 years (in that the money was there to buy players, but he refused because of being ultra picky) then Levy will sack him in the next few days or wait until after the Brighton game

- if it's because Levy/the board have broken promises regarding backing him, 'being brave' etc, fannying about in the transfer market, still acting like we are still Spurs of 6-10 years ago then they'll only sack him if things get worse from here, because he would have been acting as a great PR and football shield for them.

The great thing about all this is we wont have long to find out.

 

[Bullet]

Levy and Poch are probably having a chat right now. I wonder if Poch has got a lemon in his pocket?



Did Poch ever build a house in the grounds of the training complex, and move in?

 

[SylDave]

I don't agree with either of you about that opening period.

I'd love to see the xG for that opening 30-35 mins because as I recall Gnabry got in behind in the opening minute and they then did very little after that other than a speculative 25 yard shot from Kimmich which resulted in a goal. We pressed, we were connected and compact and we created 4 good goal-scoring chances but only took one (Kane, Son twice, N'Dombele). After that I agree the intensity dropped but come on - I've seen Spurs play at that intensity for the last 5 years - it should've been no problem to keep that up even for an hour. It doesn't matter on the system - pressing is all about shutting off options closest to the man in possession, suffocating the opposition and allowing them no out-ball which we were doing. It really shouldn't be a problem for players to cover that ground - its the same size of pitch whichever system you play.

Yes we pressed but compact we absolutely were not, Hoddle called that game down to a tee after 10 minutes, and when it was still 1-1 went into a 90 seconds more detailed explanation about his previous comments ripping the diamond to absolute shreds, any manager who didn’t know how to rip us a new one before last night were given the blueprint by Hoddle.

 

[StephenH]

I wouldnt be at all surprised if Levy is giving serious thought as to whether or not Poch is at the end of the road.

Maybe there's the problem. Poch has done well but is not doing so well.
Levy has got a big decision to make.
They are never easy.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Maybe there's the problem. Poch has done well but is not doing so well.
Levy has got a big decision to make.
They are never easy.

If you look in the thread about potential Poch successors it is clear, its all a gamble.

Its also a gamble to watch this brick show unfold, and to allow it to continue in the hope it turns around.

 

[fernadez]

I don't agree with either of you about that opening period.

I'd love to see the xG for that opening 30-35 mins because as I recall Gnabry got in behind in the opening minute and they then did very little after that other than a speculative 25 yard shot from Kimmich which resulted in a goal. We pressed, we were connected and compact and we created 4 good goal-scoring chances but only took one (Kane, Son twice, N'Dombele). After that I agree the intensity dropped but come on - I've seen Spurs play at that intensity for the last 5 years - it should've been no problem to keep that up even for an hour. It doesn't matter on the system - pressing is all about shutting off options closest to the man in possession, suffocating the opposition and allowing them no out-ball which we were doing. It really shouldn't be a problem for players to cover that ground - its the same size of pitch whichever system you play.

Before we pressed with

Kane
Son Alli Eriksen
Dembele Wanyama



Yesterday;

Son Kane
Alli
Sissoko Ndombele

Winks


It's a massive difference. The 2nd formation has the midfielders pressing high then trying to fill in to protect sometimes in the same phase of play. When the press was beaten the midfield three were spread across the whole of the pitch with massive gaps in between. Bayern played a 4-2-3-1 so as soon as our front three were byapssed it was 5 against 3.

The first formation is more compact, the midfield can become a 4 or even a 5 when needed.

 

[SylDave]

Maybe there's the problem. Poch has done well but is not doing so well.
Levy has got a big decision to make.
They are never easy.

He will def be here Saturday, there is then a international break, if we lose at Brighton I would not put money on him definitely being here after it.

 

[Bishop]

I don’t disagree at all about Son needing to play on the left, it’s his best position, but he is inconsistent those 20 goals come in bursts of form when is almost at Messi and Ronaldo levels, he then goes 10 games doing sweet fa, yes he can catch the eye with a run or piece of skill in those games but there is no end product, is it just a coincidence that Alli has never reached the same heights with Son in the team, messing with his position to accommodate Son then has a knock on effect on Eriksen.

Given a straight choice between Son and Deli I would pick Son every single time. Better finisher, faster, better dribbler, more unpredictable, better shooting from distance etc etc. We need Son particularly for those tight games because he is the guy that will try something unpredictable he is also constantly making runs whether he is on form or not. His goals come in bursts no more than Deli do too.

Poch's job is not to make Deli's stats the best, he has to pick who he thinks is the best player for the job. 2016/17 Deli best season stat wise was also a good year for Son

For the most part of degradation of the quality of the football is directly linked to the decreasing quality of our CM notably the physical decline of Wanyama, Dier and Dembele along with the addition of the particularly low quality Sissoko.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Fapatalk

 

[SylDave]

If you look in the thread about potential Poch successors it is clear, its all a gamble.

Its also a gamble to watch this brick show unfold, and to allow it to continue in the hope it turns around.

Watching this brick show is not a gamble, it’s like watching a loved one self harm through substance abuse and sticking your head in the sand saying it’s just a phase, this has been going on for a year now, if it was from the start of this season I would be first in line to defend him.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

My two penneth.....

Specifically on last night......they were deadly. One of those games where the opposition are brutal in their finishing. What are the stats....did they miss many? We however were woeful defensively, giving them many of those chances/half chances.

Widening things out....i dont think we have ever suffered a defeat like that, and i include 3-0's, 4-1's under Poch (correction: think the Saudi Sportswashing Machine end of season away game is another), we're always competitive and no matter what we hang in there, no matter the task we are faced with. Very rarely is it more than the odd goal we'd lose by. That usually indicates you are playing for the manager and the team is together. And i think it is.

The formation and the personnel is a bit of a headache at the moment for Poch.

He wants to play a diamond as i think he sees Ndom and La Celso as the wider pionts of that diamond with a decent dcm screening. Of course we have none of that at the moment and he needs to unwed himself from that idea for the foreseeable. Its funny that we consider him stubborn as in his first seasons he developed one system then another and another and we'd switch between systems (seamlessly) even during games. He felt tactically astute and clever. Perhaps looking back that was built on a powerful defence and a good selection of DCM's.....that base looks blown apart at the moment.

He needs to look at the players he's got and choose a system that suits those players that collectively makes us a better team. It's probably 4-2-3-1? (and pray Dier is still a player)

With the players that want to leave and the players Poch doesn't want it adds up to a large transition, a transition that is already quite drawn out. The question is do we want Poch to be the person to be given the responsibility to take us through that transition? On balance i say yes (with caveats).
1. He has to want to continue in his own mind?
2 He has to show flexibility. When someone is so wedded to a philosophy they can become entrenched and too focussed on the beliefs of that philosophy...they think 'this is the way' and can repeat the same mantras and mistakes over and over even when results dont reflect progress. These people will double down on things.

The reasons i back him is.
1 Hes earn't my trust. He has done remarkably over the last 5 years and that HAS bought him some time.
2 You do have to look at the back up plan. Who is available?, that is genuinely better. I know you can say 'thats no reason to keep him' BUT it is. Allegri maybe. Mourinho no way. The bit i worry about is there is a lot of evidence that Poch gets his teams to be greater than the sum of its parts, not many manager can do this. We may be bricker than we realise and the subsequent drop off maybe United like, if not worse considering we cant spend our way out of it. A new man will be taking over the transition its not like we are in a good phase and Poch has left us in rude health. And some managers only operate on large budgets.....and walk if they don't get what they want. The club as a whole is still in a delicate phase.
3. The players do still look like they are playing for him.