Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[SylDave]

We played absolutely fine without him, before the sending off it looked like a match where we might have racked up quite a few goals. I don't believe you can say Lamela not starting Saturday was a mistake.

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For me it was about the precedent dropping him set, of course Eriksen and Alli should be in the team ahead of him when fit and just as importantly on form, but Lamela has arguably been our best player this season, he put in a performance against Leicester, dropping him sent out all the wrong signals, if he was rested to start last night it would have made more sense with his injury record, but what it’s showing the squad is form don’t matter certain players are getting picked no matter how they perform.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I don’t think torpedo’d as I think he’s their mate, which is probably a lot of the problem.

For a long time now, there have been no consequences to being brick. Hugo, Toby, Eriksen, Alli, Kane, they’ve all had periods of dogbrick performances yet still been back in the starting eleven as soon as they could stand up straight.

I do think torpedo'd as he is setting them up to fail. Aside from the ideas of motivation etc which he seems to be failing at, he is actually fudging them over tactically as well. Thats nothing to do with mates or any of it, its incompetence.

Imagine saying that about him a couple of years back?

The mates thing - there is something to that, maybe, Poch seems to have lost his ruthless streak with dropping players. And certainly favours some rather unfairly (Moura and Lamela last night much have been wondering "what the hell?!")

This is the only thing that counts right now; does he want it?

I dont think he does. I think he is shot. The last year or two have done for him. The CL final loss just capped it off. He is defeated.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

For me it was about the precedent dropping him set, of course Eriksen and Alli should be in the team ahead of him when fit and just as importantly on form, but Lamela has arguably been our best player this season, he put in a performance against Leicester, dropping him sent out all the wrong signals, if he was rested to start last night it would have made more sense with his injury record, but what it’s showing the squad is form don’t matter certain players are getting picked no matter how they perform.

I thought Lamela was our best player at Leicester, and really enjoyed what he was doing. Then he got dropped against SCBC which really tinkled me off, until someone pointed out he was being rested for Bayern.

Cool, I get that, we need to nurse him, thats sensible...

What the actual fudge!?

 

[fernadez]

Alli starting of Lamela makes no sense at all.

Lamela being dropped for the last two games makes no sense at all.

Like we've asked, what are these selections based on? Some sort of interclub raffle perhaps.

 

[Bishop]

It has always been that way with Poch though. He has his favourites and he will pick them first. It might not have been so evident due to the lack of quality numbers in the squad. Dele has always started regardless of form many times in the past at Son's expense despite Son being the better player AND putting in the better performances. It took quite a while before Son made it into Poch's inner circle.

I'm sure the squad were already aware of this I doubt Lamela"s non inclusion on Saturday would have any more impact than all the other times a favourite has been selected at others expense. The CL final is a perfect example with the selection of Kane.

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[spurs' magna carter]

Last night didn't surprise at all, okay 7 did, but I turned it off at 3-1 and thought '5 or even 6-1 wouldn't surprise me. Our form and performances at times have been terrible for most of the year.

In our last 16 competitive games of last season we won just 5, not quite title challenging form is it now, even with new arrivals expected. Our form since our 3-0 thumping of Dortmund at Wembley has been poor in general, not just by our recent standards.

Correct me if I am wrong, but since Dortmand at Wembely (13 February 2019) our form has been:

• 6 wins in the last 19 League games.
• 9 wins in the last 28 competitive games.

Had a dream last night that I was interviewing Mourinho for the job. My thoughts are, and have been for a while, that whether he leaves or gets the boot Poch isn't going to be around for much longer. I hope I'm wrong but whether he is to blame or not, something is seriously wrong and has been for a while.

Oh, and we are now in the midst of a squad crisis, thought Campbell was painfull, think again. 4 first teamers up for free. Although, going by their current form, that could be a blessing in disguise.....if we're able to afford their immediate replacements, which given the Club's transfer policy, an overpriced market primed for money laundering and financial limitations is unlikely.

 

[The Fatman]

I think if we fail to beat Brighton on Saturday, he is gone.

 

[tynesidespur]

He has a midfield now, and he persists.

Where is this new midfield you speak of?

Wanyama is no longer a starting option.
Dier has looked off the pace when he's played. How do we know if he's in the same position as Wanyama?
N'Dombele is starting games when fit but its going to take time for him to get up to speed. He's showing amazing promise going forwards but equally he's making mistakes in a defensive sense.
Lo Celso - injured pretty much from day 1. There should be an inquest into how we allowed him to join up with an international squad.

That leaves Winks, Sissoko & Skipp. Skipp doesn't look up to it.

As has been said the diamond was ok for 30-35 mins. Poch changed it (looked like 4-4-1-1 to me) before HT and we still conceded. We stayed in that system 2nd half and got ran over in the first 15 mins.
Then he empties midfield - that for me was the killer blow. You can't empty midfield 4-2 down at home in what is effectively a league game and not a knock-out tie. What purpose does that serve? We'd be better tightening up and accepting a narrow-ish defeat.

Struggling for answers here.
The defence is creaking because there's no protection from the midfield but basically we have very few options there until N'Dombele gets fully fit and learns pretty quickly how to defend. Winks at the base just doesn't work for me and it was highlighted again yesterday. But there are no other options.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think if we fail to beat Brighton on Saturday, he is gone.

Part of me is concerned we pull a half decent performance and win, and he stays.

How fudged up is that?

As has been said the diamond was ok for 30-35 mins.

The diamond was not ok for 35 minutes, not even close. We just didnt get punished during that period, despite BM cutting us open at will.

It was "ok" in so much as all our players were running themselves into the ground to try and make it work, pulling double duty. It was never going to work, and by the end of the half they were fudged and we never recovered.

Im not inherently against a diamond, or any formation really, but you have to have the players and the training ground work to make it (or any formation) a success.

We most clearly do not have either with the diamond. Its obvious on paper, and its obvious in reality.

The diamond was not, and was never going to be, ok. At all.

And that really is the issue for me. Ill take a rocky run of form and performances while I can see we are building something. A new shape doesnt just fall into place, it takes a little practice. Just like when Poch first arrived, we could see the intent, and were along for the ride...

Now? I dont see any intent. There is no design. We arent working on anything specific. At least - I cant see anything resembling such - can anyone?

 

[SylDave]

It has always been that way with Poch though. He has his favourites and he will pick them first. It might not have been so evident due to the lack of quality numbers in the squad. Dele has always started regardless of form many times in the past at Son's expense despite Son being the better player AND putting in the better performances. It took quite a while before Son made it into Poch's inner circle.

I'm sure the squad were already aware of this I doubt Lamela"s non inclusion on Saturday would have any more impact than all the other times a favourite has been selected at others expense. The CL final is a perfect example with the selection of Kane.

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Funny thing with Son is it’s since he became undroppable that performances have slowly declined, this squad and Poch peak was 15/16 and 16/17 Son was a squad player, I don’t think he is good for the balance of the team, early in the summer there was a topic on here about this seasons team and in and outs, I said then I thought we should cash in on Son and got shot down, I stand by it even more now, he is inconsistent, goes from world beater to no better than Andros Townsend, and causes too many issues in terms of balance of the squad, this bloody diamond is all about getting him in the team as the most advanced striker, it’s hurting Kane, with his presence in the team Alli has never looked the same player which then has a knock on effect on Eriksen.

I will say it again unless Son is happy to sit on the bench as Kane’s backup I would sell him.

 

[scaramanga]

Where is this new midfield you speak of?

Wanyama is no longer a starting option.
Dier has looked off the pace when he's played. How do we know if he's in the same position as Wanyama?
N'Dombele is starting games when fit but its going to take time for him to get up to speed. He's showing amazing promise going forwards but equally he's making mistakes in a defensive sense.
Lo Celso - injured pretty much from day 1. There should be an inquest into how we allowed him to join up with an international squad.

That leaves Winks, Sissoko & Skipp. Skipp doesn't look up to it.

As has been said the diamond was ok for 30-35 mins. Poch changed it (looked like 4-4-1-1 to me) before HT and we still conceded. We stayed in that system 2nd half and got ran over in the first 15 mins.
Then he empties midfield - that for me was the killer blow. You can't empty midfield 4-2 down at home in what is effectively a league game and not a knock-out tie. What purpose does that serve? We'd be better tightening up and accepting a narrow-ish defeat.

Struggling for answers here.
The defence is creaking because there's no protection from the midfield but basically we have very few options there until N'Dombele gets fully fit and learns pretty quickly how to defend. Winks at the base just doesn't work for me and it was highlighted again yesterday. But there are no other options.

N'Dombele and Winks behind Son, Eriksen and Lamela/Dele

That's the 2nd best midfield anyone in this country can put by by an absolute fudging mile (admittedly still some way behind City).

 

[fernadez]

Funny thing with Son is it’s since he became undroppable that performances have slowly declined, this squad and Poch peak was 15/16 and 16/17 Son was a squad player, I don’t think he is good for the balance of the team, early in the summer there was a topic on here about this seasons team and in and outs, I said then I thought we should cash in on Son and got shot down, I stand by it even more now, he is inconsistent, goes from world beater to no better than Andros Townsend, and causes too many issues in terms of balance of the squad, this bloody diamond is all about getting him in the team as the most advanced striker, it’s hurting Kane, with his presence in the team Alli has never looked the same player which then has a knock on effect on Eriksen.

I will say it again unless Son is happy to sit on the bench as Kane’s backup I would sell him.

The issue isn't Son, it's Poch trying to get Son and Kane playing as a pair. He's a wide man that can get you 20 goals, players like that are gold dust. What you deep is keep them out wide, not try and make them a striker. No better than Townsend? Come on now.

When he plays out wide as on Saturday it's fine. When he plays upfront in Kane's absence it's also fine.

They are just not a strike partnership. Kane doesn't need a partner, it just makes him drop and go wide and perfect his Sheringham impression.

What worries me is that fact that us and England keep playing him with someone, which suggests that there is something more going on with Kane than anything else. Why do you take a 30 goal a season player, and then think to yourself 'I know, he needs help upfront'. Makes absolutely no sense.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Funny thing with Son is it’s since he became undroppable that performances have slowly declined, this squad and Poch peak was 15/16 and 16/17 Son was a squad player, I don’t think he is good for the balance of the team, early in the summer there was a topic on here about this seasons team and in and outs, I said then I thought we should cash in on Son and got shot down, I stand by it even more now, he is inconsistent, goes from world beater to no better than Andros Townsend, and causes too many issues in terms of balance of the squad, this bloody diamond is all about getting him in the team as the most advanced striker, it’s hurting Kane, with his presence in the team Alli has never looked the same player which then has a knock on effect on Eriksen.

I will say it again unless Son is happy to sit on the bench as Kane’s backup I would sell him.

The problem isnt Son, its how he is deployed, IMO.

When he plays off of the left it works a treat. He has space, poses a threat. And Kane plays as a CF, and looks twice the player. And they work well together in that dynamic. It even leaves room for Alli to float behind Kane, and we know how well that can work.

When Kane has been injured Son has stepped into his position and done a fine job. In fact I think he is the best cover for Kane in the squad.

The problem, for me, is Son being played CF with Kane. It doesnt work particularly for anyone.
Kane is immediately playing most of his game in midfield, and while he can do a job, you only get a fraction of his potential.
Son is just central and running into defenders half the time, and only really looking good on the break.
Our width is nil, and people like Alli are either forming a queue down the middle of the pitch or shunted semi-wide but again far less effective.

I dont know if Son has made demands about playing as a CF, or if Poch just likes the idea of him there, but thats essentially the issue IMO.

 

[fernadez]

As has been said the diamond was ok for 30-35 mins.

The diamond wasn't ok. It was obvious we couldn't keep playing like that for 90, in fact we lasted 30 mins. Three midfielders doing the job of 4/5 against quality opposition is never going to work. He had them putting out fires and then trying to press. We attacked well but as soon as they got the ball we were wide open.

I can't fault the players cause they tried their hardest, but the only way it was going to work was if we took a 3 goal lead, changed formation personnel and then tried to control the game. That is not a tactical game plan.

 

[fernadez]

The problem isnt Son, its how he is deployed, IMO.

When he plays off of the left it works a treat. He has space, poses a threat. And Kane plays as a CF, and looks twice the player. And they work well together in that dynamic. It even leaves room for Alli to float behind Kane, and we know how well that can work.

When Kane has been injured Son has stepped into his position and done a fine job. In fact I think he is the best cover for Kane in the squad.

The problem, for me, is Son being played CF with Kane. It doesnt work particularly for anyone.
Kane is immediately playing most of his game in midfield, and while he can do a job, you only get a fraction of his potential.
Son is just central and running into defenders half the time, and only really looking good on the break.
Our width is nil, and people like Alli are either forming a queue down the middle of the pitch or shunted semi-wide but again far less effective.

I dont know if Son has made demands about playing as a CF, or if Poch just likes the idea of him there, but thats essentially the issue IMO.

That's a scarily similar post to mine mate.

 

[Jordinho]

Part of me is concerned we pull a half decent performance and win, and he stays.

How fudged up is that?

I'm fully expecting us to bounce back on Saturday, then struggle against bottom of the league Watford in two weeks. We need to win convincingly against both of them and Red Star before traveling to Luckypool, as that game is a write off.

 

[tynesidespur]

N'Dombele and Winks behind Son, Eriksen and Lamela/Dele

That's the 2nd best midfield anyone in this country can put by by an absolute fudging mile (admittedly still some way behind City).

They both played last night and from 35-60 mins when we switched to 4-4-1-1 they were the central pair and we went from 1-1 to 1-4.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

That's a scarily similar post to mine mate.

So I see, yours got in just as I was typing. I didnt read it until I posted, and then it was a bit of a deja vu situation....

I'm fully expecting us to bounce back on Saturday, then struggle against bottom of the league Watford in two weeks. We need to win convincingly against both of them and Red Star before traveling to Luckypool, as that game is a write off.

We need to play like we know what we are doing. Like Poch has control of everything, and is pushing everyone to a design, to a plan. We need to look like we used to, basically.

I doubt thats going to happen. Regardless of result I suspect its going to be as open and haphazard as it has been all season.

And if we win, Poch gets more time, and no progress is forthcoming - Liverpool will rip us to pieces. And then what? THEN he goes? THEN we stumble on?

I hate talk of "must win" and that, of arbitrary targets, but right now I think we need to see a complete change in approach - or else.

 

[SylDave]

The issue isn't Son, it's Poch trying to get Son and Kane playing as a pair. He's a wide man that can get you 20 goals, players like that are gold dust. What you deep is keep them out wide, not try and make them a striker. No better than Townsend? Come on now.

When he plays out wide as on Saturday it's fine. When he plays upfront in Kane's absence it's also fine.

They are just not a strike partnership. Kane doesn't need a partner, it just makes him drop and go wide and perfect his Sheringham impression.

What worries me is that fact that us and England keep playing him with someone, which suggests that there is something more going on with Kane than anything else. Why do you take a 30 goal a season player, and then think to yourself 'I know, he needs help upfront'. Makes absolutely no sense.

The problem isnt Son, its how he is deployed, IMO.

When he plays off of the left it works a treat. He has space, poses a threat. And Kane plays as a CF, and looks twice the player. And they work well together in that dynamic. It even leaves room for Alli to float behind Kane, and we know how well that can work.

When Kane has been injured Son has stepped into his position and done a fine job. In fact I think he is the best cover for Kane in the squad.

The problem, for me, is Son being played CF with Kane. It doesnt work particularly for anyone.
Kane is immediately playing most of his game in midfield, and while he can do a job, you only get a fraction of his potential.
Son is just central and running into defenders half the time, and only really looking good on the break.
Our width is nil, and people like Alli are either forming a queue down the middle of the pitch or shunted semi-wide but again far less effective.

I dont know if Son has made demands about playing as a CF, or if Poch just likes the idea of him there, but thats essentially the issue IMO.

I don’t disagree at all about Son needing to play on the left, it’s his best position, but he is inconsistent those 20 goals come in bursts of form when is almost at Messi and Ronaldo levels, he then goes 10 games doing sweet fa, yes he can catch the eye with a run or piece of skill in those games but there is no end product, is it just a coincidence that Alli has never reached the same heights with Son in the team, messing with his position to accommodate Son then has a knock on effect on Eriksen.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I don’t disagree at all about Son needing to play on the left, it’s his best position, but he is inconsistent those 20 goals come in bursts of form when is almost at Messi and Ronaldo levels, he then goes 10 games doing sweet fa, yes he can catch the eye with a run or piece of skill in those games but there is no end product, is it just a coincidence that Alli has never reached the same heights with Son in the team, messing with his position to accommodate Son then has a knock on effect on Eriksen.

I completely understand where you are coming from with consistency. Son is a bit of a streaky player, and some days a world beater, other days nothing comes off...

I dont blame him for Allis form at all though. Alli could well be playing behind Kane to great effect, but spent most of last season filling gaps in our decimated side. He has since been injured. I see no reason why he cant play behind Kane now, with Son left. Of course that pushes Eriksen out, but so what? He is off anyway...