Crawley
Board Legend
That person has been dealt with.
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Maggie
- Thread starter Baleforce
- Start date
That person has been dealt with.
I've been duly punished for this post. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for bringing this up again.
You should have more faith in the administrators who do a good job on this forum.
Unfortunately for you, we do live in a democracy hence free speech does and will remain the pillar of our society. A developed country as the one we live in prides itself in that respect.
May I enquire if you have English heritage? Just a thought...
Jurgen the German
Erik Thorstvedt
Have to say, the stereotyping of the North is getting boring. I find preposterous that so many tories moan about people not having national pride and yet they see fit to belittle half of the same country.
thfcsteff
George Hunt
Sheffield Spur
Øyvind Leonhardsen
=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>
The most accurate and relevant post in the whole thread!
Andy Warhol said everyone should be famous for 15 minutes. You should be Prime Minister for at least a day. [-o<
Some of the crap written here and everywhere else about Thatcher is just astonishing.
You'd think she'd outdone William the Conqueror in terms of Harrying The North.
What brought wealth and prosperity to the North of England?
Free market capitalism.
Which led, rightly, to the birth of unions to give protection against the exploitation of those workers.
Fast forward a couple of centuries and what had those unions turned into?
Conglomerate organizations run by self deluded ideological lunatics obsessed with the overthrow of governments by the proletariat masses.
Unions turned from protecting the exploited to exploiting the protected, and a union membership became a guarantee that no matter how lazy you were, how bad at your job you were, you would never be sacked - or the whole country would grind to halt if you were.
They needed smashing and Thatcher did a good job of doing that. She castrated them at least and turned them back more towards what they were intended to be.
There's no guide book on how to create an ideal society. We've been making it up as we go along for thousands of years.
If there is unlimited freedom then, so the paradox affirms, there's nothing to stop the strong enslaving the weak.
So measures need to be put in place to prevent that, but if those measures become to severe, then the weak themselves become the oppressors.
Everything had gone too far one way in the post war years. Many good things were done - with the best intentions - but they went too far and a hammer was needed to push things closer into alignment.
You'd think she'd outdone William the Conqueror in terms of Harrying The North.
What brought wealth and prosperity to the North of England?
Free market capitalism.
Which led, rightly, to the birth of unions to give protection against the exploitation of those workers.
Fast forward a couple of centuries and what had those unions turned into?
Conglomerate organizations run by self deluded ideological lunatics obsessed with the overthrow of governments by the proletariat masses.
Unions turned from protecting the exploited to exploiting the protected, and a union membership became a guarantee that no matter how lazy you were, how bad at your job you were, you would never be sacked - or the whole country would grind to halt if you were.
They needed smashing and Thatcher did a good job of doing that. She castrated them at least and turned them back more towards what they were intended to be.
There's no guide book on how to create an ideal society. We've been making it up as we go along for thousands of years.
If there is unlimited freedom then, so the paradox affirms, there's nothing to stop the strong enslaving the weak.
So measures need to be put in place to prevent that, but if those measures become to severe, then the weak themselves become the oppressors.
Everything had gone too far one way in the post war years. Many good things were done - with the best intentions - but they went too far and a hammer was needed to push things closer into alignment.
Sheffield Spur
Øyvind Leonhardsen
Sorry mate, but she was from Grantham, Lincolnshire. Thats a midlander. Although many from south of Watford probably would side with you.
But lets stick with some other 'proper' famous northerners.
Kyle Walker
Kyle Naughton
Paul Gascoigne
Chris Waddle
Ray Clemence
Paul Stewart
Nicky Barmby
Aaron Lennon
And, just for good measure, a couple of other northern fudging monkeys.....
'Sir' Bill Nicholson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Nicholson_(footballer)
not forgetting
Keith Burtenshaw
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Burkinshaw
The latter being what, precisely, before becoming Spurs second best manager of all time.....he worked in the mining industry. Dodworth Colliery.
Anyone feeling ashamed yet?
Sheffield Spur
Øyvind Leonhardsen
Well, many round these parts rather do think she was pretty bad. And she most certainly did destroy more British industry than Hitlers Luftwaffe.
It could also be argued....what brought wealth and posperity to the south: the industrial midlands and north, via the Industrial Revolution, industrial output and generating wealth. A chicken and egg argument.
Skinhead in a Suit
John Scales
=D>
15 pages and not one personal attack against another poster!
15 pages and not one personal attack against another poster!
chicken_badge
Gudni Bergsson
Goes to show how Thatcher really did split public opinion and while she was great for some she was terrible for others. I think most people have a grip on that, and also know that it will almost be impossible to persuade someone with a strong view to change their mind. The roots with her are too deep.
That said, I grew up in the 80s and I'm from an anti -Thatcher background. None of my family would be having the death parties right now but it's buried in my genes never to vote Tory. However, I have to say watching the film The Iron Lady did make me much more sympathetic to her as a person. Just a sad lonely woman before she died, going a bit nuts in her old age.
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
some good points in there, i'm surprised no one has brought up Wilson yet, as far as the unions go all Thatcher did was right his wrongs of In Place of Strife
Danishfurniturelover
the prettiest spice girl
Goes to show how Thatcher really did split public opinion and while she was great for some she was terrible for others. I think most people have a grip on that, and also know that it will almost be impossible to persuade someone with a strong view to change their mind. The roots with her are too deep.
That said, I grew up in the 80s and I'm from an anti -Thatcher background. None of my family would be having the death parties right now but it's buried in my genes never to vote Tory. However, I have to say watching the film The Iron Lady did make me much more sympathetic to her as a person. Just a sad lonely woman before she died, going a bit nuts in her old age.
It happens to us all.
I cried like a baby again this morning, got to go to a function tonight and will miss the match. I had a great deal of respect for maggie but my true love is and always will be TOTTENHAM.
Danishfurniturelover
the prettiest spice girl
yeah howard was a shocker
The bit I was responding to there was the inference that there was an intentional destruction of entire communities because of some irrational dislike of them or prejudice towards the South. That's clearly a myth - nobody would put in the years of dedication required to rise to that level just to enforce some kind of petty grudge. Whilst I think that many Labour PMs were qunts and the majority completely incompetent/misguided/lacking in a basic understanding of economics, the suggestion that they would make major policy decisions out of pure spite is a little ridiculous.
You're right, this probably is an incredibly long conversation. All I'll say is that considering 'me' over 'us' was, IMHO already there - the union members knew that for every extra penny they earned, that was a penny not spent on education or hospitals, etc. That didn't stop them from wanting more, more, more though.
The housing crisis is something that has really come about since her time. Governments on both sides have continued this ridiculous belief that the places people most want to live are the ones that need most protection from building. Environmental regulations have made the situation worse and a lack of investment (based on a lack of credit, caused by Brown's ignorance of moral hazard) has compounded it. Could more have been done at the time to increase the level of housing? I'm sure it could. Was it overall a good policy to allow people to own their own homes? Absolutely IMHO.
Another issue people tend to forget when it comes to a lack of social housing is the ridiculous council house for life policy. Thanks to our delightful welfare state and a rare lack of foresight from Thatcher herself, once a family is given a council house they keep it for life. If you want more social housing available, simply take it away from those who don't need it - problem solved overnight.
People don't always want more for less. Every individual has a level of quality (or lack) that they will accept for a certain value. Some will value quality over price and vice versa. Full privatisation allows for these choices to be made, unfortunately many things in this country are not fully privatised.
Take telecoms. Sky broadband is dirt cheap if you have a subscription - trouble is, it's also a terrible broadband service. For some people (like my parents) the cost is more important than the quality. For me, I'd rather pay more for a better service. The fact that the choice is there is the important thing though - everybody should have the right to make that decision themselves, not the government on their behalf. I also value the quality of private healthcare and schooling over the much cheaper (essentially free as I can't take back what the govt has stolen from me) NHS and state school systems.
Some things though, can't really be privatised properly. Like I said in the Korea thread, defence spending has to be done at a government level - it's one of the few roles that a government really needs to have.
As opposed to the old system where the market was made up of low-wage mining or steel smelting - I don't see the difference.
The university issue is of Blair's making - part of his obsession with tweaking stats to make himself look good. He decided that it would look great if 50% of kids went to uni in his time as PM so he made it happen, with no regard for the quality of the degree or the fact that it would make a degree essentially worthless in the eyes of employers.
20 years ago, you could be pretty certain that a graduate was part of the intellectual elite - as an employer it would be pretty safe to go for any graduate with the right skillset. Now a degree means nothing to an employer - in order to find the elite you need someone with a degree from the right uni. This massively disadvantages poorer intelligent kids and is one of the worst things Blair did while in power.
I don't understand this obsession people have with our country making stuff. Stuff has always been made in the cheapest place possible - before globalisation it was the North, since then it's China/Korea, etc. The only way to make stuff that will sell is to completely automate it or for our labour to be cheaper than China - neither of which does much for our job market.
I think attempting to keep Northern Ireland British was a big mistake of hers. It's nothing but a drain on the economy and a waste of time that could be spent doing far more important stuff.
However, once the decision was made to keep the place British, I think she dealt with it in the right way. I agree with her that criminals should be treated like criminals, don't you?
Edit: I've just had to look this up because I knew there was something ridiculous about it but can never remember what. Amongst the murderous scumbag's requests on his hunger strike were "The right not to wear a prison uniform" and "The right not to do prison work". He clearly didn't understand the concept of prison properly, maybe he'd have been better off in some kind of institution for the faint of mind.
Skinhead in a Suit
John Scales
Really?!!!
Do you not believe that everyone benefits from having an educated/healthy society? If there was no "free" state education the private sector would not be able to find a suitable workforce for it to operate, and if they could, the amount of "sick days" would make it impossible to compete economically. Or wold you not pay people if they are too sick to come in to work?
Seriously naive and ridiculous comment that Scara.
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
Well they've taken my money under threat - that sounds like theft to me.
If nobody had healthcare or education for free then there'd be private providers for it who, I suspect, would be able to do it far cheaper on average than the government can.