Johan Lange - Sporting Director

[Mr Gogolak]

Maybe if we had signed Raya who is far more confident on the ball, a far better user of said ball and a lot more commanding in his box then maybe Ange wouldn't have suffered the same number of defeats, he might well still be in the job. If you recall it was Vicario's weakness at commanding his box (exposed against Emirates Marketing Project in the Cup) that directly led to the many, many easy goals we too easily conceded in the second half of Ange's first season.

That's when the performances and results tailed off. That's when the rot (in terms of Ange. The wider rot has been present for years) started to set in and truthfully was never addressed. We just kept doing the same things game after game and hoping something different would happen this time.

It's all a degree of cause and effect. Not signing a player here or there doesn't make a dramatic difference, but it makes a difference in subtle ways. With Raya we probably finish 4th in his first season, that leads directly to probably making better signings that summer (Ange's second season transfers were a disaster imo). Which means we have a better year last season and again maybe that means Ange has a reasonable season in the league, we'd still have the injuries but we'd also have quality fresh blood. Some sort of Top 8ish finish and he keeps his job and the club feels like it's progressing rather than stagnating.

This is a situation where that time worn adage "buy cheap, buy twice" has really reared it's ugly head into place.

You know I always value your opinions but I'm not sure I agree with that, to be honest.

There's no evidence that finishing 4th instead of 5th would have made a difference in terms of new signing. We're in the Champions League and our recruitment policy has been less than stellar.

Also, I'd argue that Vicario is a much better shot-stopper than Raya. Raya is a better all-round keeper, but assuming he would do everything Vicario did plus the things he does well sounds like fantasy booking. Much as loathe him, there was a whole ecosystem to Ange's tactics, and big one-on-one saves from the keeper, I think, played a role because they gave the whole team a boost. Take that away and you create other problems.

I still think the problem lies with hiring managers with very specific yet contrasting systems/tactics (Conte, Postecoglou...).

I do agree with you on the 'ripple effect' though but, for me, it's more of an attitude/mentality issue than actual ability. The signs have been there for a long time (the team 'rebelling' against Mourinho, rejecting Espirito Santo and Frank...). Unfortunately, when it suits us, the fans, we're happy to ignore the problem. Now that we are on the brink of relegation, people realise it's a huge issue but it's too little, too late.

 

[braineclipse]

I'm wary of going in two-footed on Lange without knowing more of what his role entails. If he is heading up player identification and then passing on to Vinai/the higher ups to pursue deals then I'm not sure the vitriol aimed at him is warranted.

Agreed. A lot of speculation, but ultimately we can't really know for sure.

What seems clear is that he wasn't really trusted to be the lone DoF and probably that shouldn't be his role going into the summer either. But he can still be good at things he does well and useful to us.

 

[braineclipse]

We've always had decent scouts, we've always identified players with massive potential. What we've rarely done is actually go in for those players with confidence. The list is ginormous, the likes of Cavani, Suarez, B Fernades, Moutinho, Veloso, Lookman, A Gomes, Hazard, Cahill, Grealish, Dias etc etc etc were all identified by our scouting teams prior to their big moves, we just never believe in our scouting enough to actually complete the deals.

Think it's difficult to know for sure where the problem lies (or has been across different times with different people in charge).

To me it's also on the entire "transfer committee" including on those who do the scouting to not just identify players with massive potential, that should in theory at least be the lowest bar for a scout to do. But to also identify which players we should go in for with confidence, with a willingness to pay big money for that individual.

What we have seen in recent years, including when Lange has at the very least been here, is that we have gone after at the very least young talented players with seeming confidence. If those singings have been an important part of his job here I quite like what he's done on the whole on that side.

If it was him pushing for Frank and Frank to stay. It was him arguing that we didn't have to go for more quality passing players deep... That would for me be a clear sign that he needs to not have those responsibilities going forward. The "not panicking" in January thing being another thing to potentially hold against him. But I'm not sure that was ever even imagined as being his job when he came in?

 

[braineclipse]

Maybe if we had signed Raya who is far more confident on the ball, a far better user of said ball and a lot more commanding in his box then maybe Ange wouldn't have suffered the same number of defeats, he might well still be in the job. If you recall it was Vicario's weakness at commanding his box (exposed against Emirates Marketing Project in the Cup) that directly led to the many, many easy goals we too easily conceded in the second half of Ange's first season.

That's when the performances and results tailed off. That's when the rot (in terms of Ange. The wider rot has been present for years) started to set in and truthfully was never addressed. We just kept doing the same things game after game and hoping something different would happen this time.

It's all a degree of cause and effect. Not signing a player here or there doesn't make a dramatic difference, but it makes a difference in subtle ways. With Raya we probably finish 4th in his first season, that leads directly to probably making better signings that summer (Ange's second season transfers were a disaster imo). Which means we have a better year last season and again maybe that means Ange has a reasonable season in the league, we'd still have the injuries but we'd also have quality fresh blood. Some sort of Top 8ish finish and he keeps his job and the club feels like it's progressing rather than stagnating.

This is a situation where that time worn adage "buy cheap, buy twice" has really reared it's ugly head into place.

Maybe...

Agreed on that "buy cheap, buy twice" as a principle. But it's also true that we needed a rather massive turnover of players at that time and weren't in a position to sufficiently get enough players in without some cheaper options being chosen.

 

[Bishop]

You know I always value your opinions but I'm not sure I agree with that, to be honest.

There's no evidence that finishing 4th instead of 5th would have made a difference in terms of new signing. We're in the Champions League and our recruitment policy has been less than stellar.

Also, I'd argue that Vicario is a much better shot-stopper than Raya. Raya is a better all-round keeper, but assuming he would do everything Vicario did plus the things he does well sounds like fantasy booking. Much as loathe him, there was a whole ecosystem to Ange's tactics, and big one-on-one saves from the keeper, I think, played a role because they gave the whole team a boost. Take that away and you create other problems.

I still think the problem lies with hiring managers with very specific yet contrasting systems/tactics (Conte, Postecoglou...).

I do agree with you on the 'ripple effect' though but, for me, it's more of an attitude/mentality issue than actual ability. The signs have been there for a long time (the team 'rebelling' against Mourinho, rejecting Espirito Santo and Frank...). Unfortunately, when it suits us, the fans, we're happy to ignore the problem. Now that we are on the brink of relegation, people realise it's a huge issue but it's too little, too late.

I fully accept that I'm off in the realms of maybes and what ifs with that post. For me Raya is an all around net positive in comparison to Vicario that I do think that we end up in a more positive position with him between our posts.