Johan Lange - Sporting Director

[thfcsteff]

He is the next one that can jog on. Don't want him here in the summer if we are in the prem or not. AWFUL

Absolutely.

 

[SteveAWOL]

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[braineclipse]

The club putting so much faith in Fab didn't help, what a waste of time that was.

What I will say is someone like Lange can only work within the framework they have, money v wages v availability, even then he might not have been enough in the job but I also suspect he was presenting options we had no clout or effort to get.

I guess we'll never know what actually happened. Here's my speculative take.

I think we got Lange in part because Paratici was still partly doing some of his work in the advisory role. I don't think Lange was seen as the guy to be a lone DoF.

We then get Paratici back, I'm guessing more or less as planned.

Then Levy got booted and a power struggle ensued. Predictably perhaps with two DoFs, no Levy anymore and Vinai new to the job amongst other changes.

Vinai/the board backed Vinai and Lange over Paratici on whatever issues were seen as important enough. Paratici wants no more part of that so leaves to somewhere he can be more in control.

Leaving us into an absolute dumpster fire of a January. Uncertainty and disagreements about the future of Frank. No idea who the manager would be in 6 months. No real clarity on the DoF situation. Vinai new to the role. Relatively "new" owners and new board members Paratici packing up his stuff. Lange in a role he was never actually planned to have (lone DoF, no Paratici advisor).

Decision making paralysis followed along with the hope that somehow Frank and the players would just get enough wins on the board so the can could be kicked down the road until the summer.

A power struggle, power vacuum and instability resulting from the more or less unplanned exit of a micro managing strong willed chairman who had been in charge for 25 years. Who would have guessed it.

I really like our youth recruitment in recent years. If that's Lange's work I hope he sticks around. But I think we need someone else in alongside him or above him.

 

[thfcsteff]

I guess we'll never know what actually happened. Here's my speculative take.

I think we got Lange in part because Paratici was still partly doing some of his work in the advisory role. I don't think Lange was seen as the guy to be a lone DoF.

We then get Paratici back, I'm guessing more or less as planned.

Then Levy got booted and a power struggle ensued. Predictably perhaps with two DoFs, no Levy anymore and Vinai new to the job amongst other changes.

Vinai/the board backed Vinai and Lange over Paratici on whatever issues were seen as important enough. Paratici wants no more part of that so leaves to somewhere he can be more in control.

Leaving us into an absolute dumpster fire of a January. Uncertainty and disagreements about the future of Frank. No idea who the manager would be in 6 months. No real clarity on the DoF situation. Vinai new to the role. Relatively "new" owners and new board members Paratici packing up his stuff. Lange in a role he was never actually planned to have (lone DoF, no Paratici advisor).

Decision making paralysis followed along with the hope that somehow Frank and the players would just get enough wins on the board so the can could be kicked down the road until the summer.

A power struggle, power vacuum and instability resulting from the more or less unplanned exit of a micro managing strong willed chairman who had been in charge for 25 years. Who would have guessed it.

I really like our youth recruitment in recent years. If that's Lange's work I hope he sticks around. But I think we need someone else in alongside him or above him.

Paratici was clear about who HE thought should not be at the club (two people).

 

[Rafa87]

I never know because I’ve heard both, is it Lange like Ange? Or Lange like coat hanger?

 

[Bullet]

Paratici was clear about who HE thought should not be at the club (two people).

Lange the hanger and Frank the w.ank?

 

[Mabspurs]

"We are very ambitious to create a team that can play dominant football and that can control the matches with the ball for a few reasons. If you look across almost every league in the world, that is how you can say the top teams normally are successful."

....and whose responsibility is it create that team?

 

[Bishop]

How did this guy not manage to not find a single keeper in world football to buy or loan who is better than Vicario?

They did the very same summer (Raya), they just decided he was too expensive a purchase and so we have Vicario.

 

[braineclipse]

....and whose responsibility is it create that team?

The people who in the last two transfer windows have signed exactly zero players who actually helps us do that more of the time?

The same people who hired a manager who had that below watering his office plants on his list of priorities this season?

 

[Gazza]

He is not bad for getting younger players. Perhaps that’s his realm. But anything out of that in a role is beyond his capacity.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

They did the very same summer (Raya), they just decided he was too expensive a purchase and so we have Vicario.

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that, if we had signed Raya, we'd still be looking for a new keeper anyway.

There's a couple of reasons for that. First, the club culture is back to what it was pre-Pochettino. Zero standards, complacency and zero responsibility at all levels of the club (from the dressing room to the boardroom).

Second, our defense would make most keepers look weak. Despite having one of the best back four in the league in front of him, Raya still gets some criticism. Here, he'd have Romero (when he decides to turn up), Spence (a guy playing out of position), Porro (who's not a full back by trade) and VDV (who's positioning is suspect). And that's when we can play our first XI, which is basically never.

Just like VDV, Vicario was a decent choice for a team playing Angeball: good in one-on-ones but poor at commanding his box. We weren't supposed to sustain long periods of pressure. He would never get a look in in a Mourinho team, for instance. Knowing that (and if I know it, there's a good chance anybody can reach the same conclusion), it was a genius move to keep him as a number one choice in a team playing 'percentage football'.

It's controversial (and I wanted him gone), but given the players at the club, Postecoglou might be doing a better job at saving us from relegation.

 

[fernadez]

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that, if we had signed Raya, we'd still be looking for a new keeper anyway.

There's a couple of reasons for that. First, the club culture is back to what it was pre-Pochettino. Zero standards, complacency and zero responsibility at all levels of the club (from the dressing room to the boardroom).

Second, our defense would make most keepers look weak. Despite having one of the best back four in the league in front of him, Raya still gets some criticism. Here, he'd have Romero (when he decides to turn up), Spence (a guy playing out of position), Porro (who's not a full back by trade) and VDV (who's positioning is suspect). And that's when we can play our first XI, which is basically never.

Just like VDV, Vicario was a decent choice for a team playing Angeball: good in one-on-ones but poor at commanding his box. We weren't supposed to sustain long periods of pressure. He would never get a look in in a Mourinho team, for instance. Knowing that (and if I know it, there's a good chance anybody can reach the same conclusion), it was a genius move to keep him as a number one choice in a team playing 'percentage football'.

It's controversial (and I wanted him gone), but given the players at the club, Postecoglou might be doing a better job at saving us from relegation.

Personally I think we've done a better job of covering Vicario's flaws this season. Since we played out every single time regardless there would be about 10-15 instances every game where he got the ball to feet and looked shaky.

 

[billyiddo]

I'm wary of going in two-footed on Lange without knowing more of what his role entails. If he is heading up player identification and then passing on to Vinai/the higher ups to pursue deals then I'm not sure the vitriol aimed at him is warranted.

 

[Gazza]

I'm wary of going in two-footed on Lange without knowing more of what his role entails. If he is heading up player identification and then passing on to Vinai/the higher ups to pursue deals then I'm not sure the vitriol aimed at him is warranted.

Well you just have to look at the signing that we have made and he has to be a part of it including the managerial appointments since he has been at the club as an indication.

He’s probably solely responsible for this mess but he has a hand in it. The higher ups are untouchables unfortunately.

 

[Bishop]

I'm wary of going in two-footed on Lange without knowing more of what his role entails. If he is heading up player identification and then passing on to Vinai/the higher ups to pursue deals then I'm not sure the vitriol aimed at him is warranted.

We've always had decent scouts, we've always identified players with massive potential. What we've rarely done is actually go in for those players with confidence. The list is ginormous, the likes of Cavani, Suarez, B Fernades, Moutinho, Veloso, Lookman, A Gomes, Hazard, Cahill, Grealish, Dias etc etc etc were all identified by our scouting teams prior to their big moves, we just never believe in our scouting enough to actually complete the deals.

 

[braineclipse]

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that, if we had signed Raya, we'd still be looking for a new keeper anyway.

There's a couple of reasons for that. First, the club culture is back to what it was pre-Pochettino. Zero standards, complacency and zero responsibility at all levels of the club (from the dressing room to the boardroom).

Second, our defense would make most keepers look weak. Despite having one of the best back four in the league in front of him, Raya still gets some criticism. Here, he'd have Romero (when he decides to turn up), Spence (a guy playing out of position), Porro (who's not a full back by trade) and VDV (who's positioning is suspect). And that's when we can play our first XI, which is basically never.

Just like VDV, Vicario was a decent choice for a team playing Angeball: good in one-on-ones but poor at commanding his box. We weren't supposed to sustain long periods of pressure. He would never get a look in in a Mourinho team, for instance. Knowing that (and if I know it, there's a good chance anybody can reach the same conclusion), it was a genius move to keep him as a number one choice in a team playing 'percentage football'.

It's controversial (and I wanted him gone), but given the players at the club, Postecoglou might be doing a better job at saving us from relegation.

Agreed. Also with his passing being limited, but Ange using a style where most of the passes for the GK being easier shorter passes he was a good stylistic fit.

But as with quite a bit of our recruitment the lack of an overall strategy hurts us imo. Signing him, then two years later we move to Frank ball with very different demands of the goalkeeper being just one of many examples.

 

[Bishop]

Agreed. Also with his passing being limited, but Ange using a style where most of the passes for the GK being easier shorter passes he was a good stylistic fit.

But as with quite a bit of our recruitment the lack of an overall strategy hurts us imo. Signing him, then two years later we move to Frank ball with very different demands of the goalkeeper being just one of many examples.

Maybe if we had signed Raya who is far more confident on the ball, a far better user of said ball and a lot more commanding in his box then maybe Ange wouldn't have suffered the same number of defeats, he might well still be in the job. If you recall it was Vicario's weakness at commanding his box (exposed against Emirates Marketing Project in the Cup) that directly led to the many, many easy goals we too easily conceded in the second half of Ange's first season.

That's when the performances and results tailed off. That's when the rot (in terms of Ange. The wider rot has been present for years) started to set in and truthfully was never addressed. We just kept doing the same things game after game and hoping something different would happen this time.

It's all a degree of cause and effect. Not signing a player here or there doesn't make a dramatic difference, but it makes a difference in subtle ways. With Raya we probably finish 4th in his first season, that leads directly to probably making better signings that summer (Ange's second season transfers were a disaster imo). Which means we have a better year last season and again maybe that means Ange has a reasonable season in the league, we'd still have the injuries but we'd also have quality fresh blood. Some sort of Top 8ish finish and he keeps his job and the club feels like it's progressing rather than stagnating.

This is a situation where that time worn adage "buy cheap, buy twice" has really reared it's ugly head into place.

 

[Dicko]

I'm wary of going in two-footed on Lange without knowing more of what his role entails. If he is heading up player identification and then passing on to Vinai/the higher ups to pursue deals then I'm not sure the vitriol aimed at him is warranted.

Hopefully we wont need to worry much longer. Rumours are that the board are unhappy and both Vinai and Lange will be gone in Summer.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Hopefully we wont need to worry much longer. Rumours are that the board are unhappy and both Vinai and Lange will be gone in Summer.

Imagine if we are relegated by then...they'd build a statue to Vinai outside the Emirates...

 

[glorygloryeze]

Maybe if we had signed Raya who is far more confident on the ball, a far better user of said ball and a lot more commanding in his box then maybe Ange wouldn't have suffered the same number of defeats, he might well still be in the job. If you recall it was Vicario's weakness at commanding his box (exposed against Emirates Marketing Project in the Cup) that directly led to the many, many easy goals we too easily conceded in the second half of Ange's first season.

That's when the performances and results tailed off. That's when the rot (in terms of Ange. The wider rot has been present for years) started to set in and truthfully was never addressed. We just kept doing the same things game after game and hoping something different would happen this time.

It's all a degree of cause and effect. Not signing a player here or there doesn't make a dramatic difference, but it makes a difference in subtle ways. With Raya we probably finish 4th in his first season, that leads directly to probably making better signings that summer (Ange's second season transfers were a disaster imo). Which means we have a better year last season and again maybe that means Ange has a reasonable season in the league, we'd still have the injuries but we'd also have quality fresh blood. Some sort of Top 8ish finish and he keeps his job and the club feels like it's progressing rather than stagnating.

This is a situation where that time worn adage "buy cheap, buy twice" has really reared it's ugly head into place.

That "buy cheap, buy twice" could be the ENIC equivalent of "To Dare is To Do."
So apt...