Ingerlund

[braineclipse]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

There was an interesting article on what Belgium did in the Guardian just before the World Cup started

http://www.theguardian.com/football...print-gave-birth-golden-generation-world-cup-

Cheers.

Currently we seem to be more capable in more middle class sports - rowing, cycling, cricket, rugby (the proper one), etc. That's no surprise considering the parenting/obesity issues this country's working class are currently facing.

Football has probably suffered the most, but I'm sure there are plenty of other sports I don't follow that have also suffered from the "Shut up, eat your Greggs and watch Jeremy Kyle in silence" school of parenting.

As a side note, there's a lot of playing fields at the school where my wife teaches. I asked her today if they were used outside of lessons and apparently they're not. Reason being that the school WiFi signal doesn't reach that far so no kids go out there except the stoners/smokers that don't want to be seen.

I'm more receptive to "blame the parents" than "blame the kids", but it's still not a solution. Unless you have a good plan to change attitudes in large demographics...

As seen in other countries a well thought out, well implemented strategy from the associations can influence talent development hugely. They talked about Klinsmann on the latest football weekly/world cup daily podcast today, how many of the approaches he tried were met with ridicule in Germany. But now a lot of that is the standard approach and Klinsmann has gotten a lot of respect for being ahead of the curve. Many of the same reactions you would get in England I think, but you guys needs someone that can push through on a solid approach.

Blaming the parents on the other hand doesn't change anything. It might be that there are difficulties for England as a footballing nation caused by the cultural or socio-economic situation. This is true for every country in the world. In a country like England, with high ambitions and resources, such difficulties can be overcome at least to a point I'm sure. And as has been pointed out repeatedly now, this isn't a last decade or two emerging problem so blaming the latest generation(s) seems strange.

 

[metalgear]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

but there are countries like belgium and switzerland that produces good footballer, but better teams.

i agree with lineker that hodgson is part of the problem - he didn't get the balance of the squad right. maybe that's intentional however the first round exit is most definitely not.

 

[milo]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

but there are countries like belgium and switzerland that produces good footballer, but better teams.

i agree with lineker that hodgson is part of the problem - he didn't get the balance of the squad right. maybe that's intentional however the first round exit is most definitely not.

I don't think that Hodgson was blessed with options. Which players do you think should have gone who were left at home?

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

It amazes me when I see how people think coaching and better facilities will make better players. I the 60 odd years I've been playing and watching football tactical coaching has had a negative effect on the game. Most mugs I've seen running or coaching kids teams seem more focused on results than the kids enjoying themselves. When I was a kid parents didn't watch games and we didn't want them to, it was our fun time. African players develop on rubbish grounds and tatty boots in 20 a side games, where our kids get put in positions and told to stay there. No hope unless we let kids enjoy playing and making their own mistakes. The good ones will learn and the rest will play over the Scrubs until their late 30's

 

[braineclipse]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

It amazes me when I see how people think coaching and better facilities will make better players. I the 60 odd years I've been playing and watching football tactical coaching has had a negative effect on the game. Most mugs I've seen running or coaching kids teams seem more focused on results than the kids enjoying themselves. When I was a kid parents didn't watch games and we didn't want them to, it was our fun time. African players develop on rubbish grounds and tatty boots in 20 a side games, where our kids get put in positions and told to stay there. No hope unless we let kids enjoy playing and making their own mistakes. The good ones will learn and the rest will play over the Scrubs until their late 30's

Just because something works in a developing country doesn't mean it will work in England.

Better coaching and better facilities, but I'll agree that better coaching is more important than better facilities.

Would be interested in hearing why you think teams like Spain, Belgium, Germany and Switzerland have improved as much as they have if not for coaching and facilities?

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

Just because something works in a developing country doesn't mean it will work in England.

Better coaching and better facilities, but I'll agree that better coaching is more important than better facilities.

Would be interested in hearing why you think teams like Spain, Belgium, Germany and Switzerland have improved as much as they have if not for coaching and facilities?

I do know that in Germany and Holland the emphasis is on skill and technique to produce good players not winning teams, that comes later in their development. They play on smaller pitches and use smaller balls. Kids of 6-9 want to enjoy themselves and not be afraid of making mistakes, what we get in this country is pushy parents shouting at them, you wouldn't be allowed to do that at a school! It's more important that we get kids to enjoy and love the game and still be playing it in their 30's than giving it up at 8 or 9. I know it's a very naïve view but it's just a game and if you can take it in the right spirit you can have years on enjoyment from it and make life long friends from team mates and opponents.

 

[Jordinho]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

I don't think we're talking particularly advanced coaching, just something a bit better than 'clear it' and 'get it into the box'

 

[scaramanga]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

I'm more receptive to "blame the parents" than "blame the kids", but it's still not a solution. Unless you have a good plan to change attitudes in large demographics...

As seen in other countries a well thought out, well implemented strategy from the associations can influence talent development hugely. They talked about Klinsmann on the latest football weekly/world cup daily podcast today, how many of the approaches he tried were met with ridicule in Germany. But now a lot of that is the standard approach and Klinsmann has gotten a lot of respect for being ahead of the curve. Many of the same reactions you would get in England I think, but you guys needs someone that can push through on a solid approach.

Blaming the parents on the other hand doesn't change anything. It might be that there are difficulties for England as a footballing nation caused by the cultural or socio-economic situation. This is true for every country in the world. In a country like England, with high ambitions and resources, such difficulties can be overcome at least to a point I'm sure. And as has been pointed out repeatedly now, this isn't a last decade or two emerging problem so blaming the latest generation(s) seems strange.

Please don't think I'm posting any kind of an attempt at a solution. I'm just pointing out the problems like a depart with OCD and a maths text book.

I think there are two things that need to be fixed and they're both a bit linked. I realise that both are tending towards a political discussion, but that's where the problem lies IMO.

Firstly there's a culture of believing the world owes you a living in this country. IMO that's entirely to do with the safety net being far too large. Fewer people seem to be willing to put the slog into becoming a success in any field, sporting and non. Any why would they? The state will give them a better lifestyle than many people I know who work their arses off.

Secondly there's a worrying number of **** parents out there. This is where my ability to find a solution deserts me, because my general beliefs are that the government should stay the **** out of just about everything and that they have no right to tell people how to live their lives. On the other hand, there are soooo many people out there that should have been banned from having kids (or at least made to do it correctly).

 

[milo]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

Please don't think I'm posting any kind of an attempt at a solution. I'm just pointing out the problems like a depart with OCD and a maths text book.

I think there are two things that need to be fixed and they're both a bit linked. I realise that both are tending towards a political discussion, but that's where the problem lies IMO.

Firstly there's a culture of believing the world owes you a living in this country. IMO that's entirely to do with the safety net being far too large. Fewer people seem to be willing to put the slog into becoming a success in any field, sporting and non. Any why would they? The state will give them a better lifestyle than many people I know who work their arses off.

Secondly there's a worrying number of **** parents out there. This is where my ability to find a solution deserts me, because my general beliefs are that the government should stay the **** out of just about everything and that they have no right to tell people how to live their lives. On the other hand, there are soooo many people out there that should have been banned from having kids (or at least made to do it correctly).

What I don't get with your reading of it is that we produced better footballers when the safety net was larger and social security more generous.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

What I don't get with your reading of it is that we produced better footballers when the safety net was larger and social security more generous.

I don't think that there's ever been a time until recently where not working led to a better lifestyle than working. Maybe minimum wage hasn't kept up with benefits or maybe benefits have raced ahead, but in the past it always paid to work.

 

[milo]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

I don't think that there's ever been a time until recently where not working led to a better lifestyle than working. Maybe minimum wage hasn't kept up with benefits or maybe benefits have raced ahead, but in the past it always paid to work.

I'd be interested in reading some data that backs that up and how big a problem that is.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

I'd be interested in reading some data that backs that up and how big a problem that is.

The government have capped benefits at £26K per annum. That's more than twice what someone on minimum wage would earn (before tax). The fact that they needed to do so would suggest that at least some people were taking even more than that.

According to the BBC (a left of centre source), 3,000 people that had been capped in that way have since decided to work instead.

 

[milo]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

The government have capped benefits at £26K per annum. That's more than twice what someone on minimum wage would earn (before tax). The fact that they needed to do so would suggest that at least some people were taking even more than that.

According to the BBC (a left of centre source), 3,000 people that had been capped in that way have since decided to work instead.

By my (very) rough calculation that is 0.005% of the UK population. They are really going some if they are to blame for us having a **** national football team.

It would be interesting to know how the BBC knows why that is the reason they chose to go back to work. It is possible that a proportion of those people were only on benefit temporarily whilst they were between jobs. Like I said, it'd would be interesting to see the data.

 

[scaramanga]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

By my (very) rough calculation that is 0.005% of the UK population. They are really going some if they are to blame for us having a **** national football team.

It would be interesting to know how the BBC knows why that is the reason they chose to go back to work. It is possible that a proportion of those people were only on benefit temporarily whilst they were between jobs. Like I said, it'd would be interesting to see the data.

It's not an absolute line between working and not, it's the culture that having a safety net going so far past its required level causes. The (lack of) work ethic that was once restricted to union members has spread through our population like an STD in Saudi Sportswashing Machine.

Link to the BBC article is here:
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26065080

I'd double check the data if they were published by the Telegraph, but you can guarantee a BBC article that makes the Conservatives look good has been checked for errors a dozen times.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

I do know that in Germany and Holland the emphasis is on skill and technique to produce good players not winning teams, that comes later in their development. They play on smaller pitches and use smaller balls. Kids of 6-9 want to enjoy themselves and not be afraid of making mistakes, what we get in this country is pushy parents shouting at them, you wouldn't be allowed to do that at a school! It's more important that we get kids to enjoy and love the game and still be playing it in their 30's than giving it up at 8 or 9. I know it's a very naïve view but it's just a game and if you can take it in the right spirit you can have years on enjoyment from it and make life long friends from team mates and opponents.

I don't get how you get from that to the point that better coaching (and more qualified coaches) isn't a good step.

Please don't think I'm posting any kind of an attempt at a solution. I'm just pointing out the problems like a depart with OCD and a maths text book.

I think there are two things that need to be fixed and they're both a bit linked. I realise that both are tending towards a political discussion, but that's where the problem lies IMO.

Firstly there's a culture of believing the world owes you a living in this country. IMO that's entirely to do with the safety net being far too large. Fewer people seem to be willing to put the slog into becoming a success in any field, sporting and non. Any why would they? The state will give them a better lifestyle than many people I know who work their arses off.

Secondly there's a worrying number of **** parents out there. This is where my ability to find a solution deserts me, because my general beliefs are that the government should stay the **** out of just about everything and that they have no right to tell people how to live their lives. On the other hand, there are soooo many people out there that should have been banned from having kids (or at least made to do it correctly).

Aren't these the same problems that people complain about in other countries England can be compared to?

There are many ways to skin a cat, and there are many ways to produce good footballers. Each country has to do it within their own culture, personally at least I think England are way behind the curve on this.

 

[Cochise]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

I'm not normally one to get involved in these things, but I know a few girls whose plan was to get pregnant and live off benefits. I also know a couple of girl's who are very capable in their profession who are now quite happy to jack it all in and have a child, knowing that working part time with a child would give them more stress and less money than living off hand outs. I hate the benefit state that this country has become, where people believe that they are entitled to a holiday every year and a new flat screen at someone else's expense.

As for the current topic; I still think that the coaching of young kids is no where near where it needs to be. Plenty of sides are run by the dad that shouts loudest and thinks he knows more than anyone else. My brother in law and I were discussing it the other week and he's seen a few local sides train where the coach has the kids running pointless drills that simulate nothing close to anything in a real game. I do also think that some people take the wrong attitude towards the game, cultivating a winning is everything mentality early on instead of developing the youngsters slowly and creating footballer's.

Another point I think worth mentionning is the broadening of sporting horizon's. I think Rugby Union has really benefitted from the 2003 WC win as the sport gained a lot more publicity. I remember speaking to a few Dad's at the time whose kids played at local Rugby teams and they did notice an increase in participation. Could it be a case that without the publicity some of those kids would've ended up on a football pitch instead of chasing an egg?

 

[Rorschach]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

I do know that in Germany and Holland the emphasis is on skill and technique to produce good players not winning teams, that comes later in their development. They play on smaller pitches and use smaller balls. Kids of 6-9 want to enjoy themselves and not be afraid of making mistakes, what we get in this country is pushy parents shouting at them, you wouldn't be allowed to do that at a school! It's more important that we get kids to enjoy and love the game and still be playing it in their 30's than giving it up at 8 or 9. I know it's a very naïve view but it's just a game and if you can take it in the right spirit you can have years on enjoyment from it and make life long friends from team mates and opponents.

I think one of the problems is that that the kids are put into competitive situations too quickly. At that young age the bigger more powerful kids will always trump the little guys irrespective of their skill level. Once you get into match situations the coaches and indeed the parents put too much emphasis on the result, and this promotes a safety first approach the game. The formative years should be about technique and decision making. Non-competitive small side games until they are in their teens should be the norm.

 

[braineclipse]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

I think one of the problems is that that the kids are put into competitive situations too quickly. At that young age the bigger more powerful kids will always trump the little guys irrespective of their skill level. Once you get into match situations the coaches and indeed the parents put too much emphasis on the result, and this promotes a safety first approach the game. The formative years should be about technique and decision making. Non-competitive small side games until they are in their teens should be the norm.

I'm delighted with the lack of results oriented thinking seemingly present in our youth academy going by some of the interviews with the coaches. I agree with everything you say.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

I think one of the problems is that that the kids are put into competitive situations too quickly. At that young age the bigger more powerful kids will always trump the little guys irrespective of their skill level. Once you get into match situations the coaches and indeed the parents put too much emphasis on the result, and this promotes a safety first approach the game. The formative years should be about technique and decision making. Non-competitive small side games until they are in their teens should be the norm.

That's exactly what we need to do along with qualified coaches working to a planned programme, but Billy big B******* will still want his kid to be winning medal and telling everyone Chelsea are after him. At the moment anyone without coaching ability can run a kids team.

 

[Rorschach]

Re: England's last world cup game for 12 years!!!!!

I'm delighted with the lack of results oriented thinking seemingly present in our youth academy going by some of the interviews with the coaches. I agree with everything you say.

Norway is it? Well I think you will reap the rewards for this approach down the road. Players with advantageous physical attributes will always have those. They just have to learn to not be reliant on those attributes as they become less a factor as they get older. Unless you're a goalie.

Tangentially I was speaking to a goal keeping coach a few months back, we were commenting on the massive size of this 13yr old kid playing in goal at a match we were watching and he said they are testing kids who want to be goalies before they let them into the academies, and can predict with some accuracy as to how tall they will get. He said they are disregarding any kid who won't make 6'5 straight off the bat.