I liked Erik Lamela before it was cool

[LutonSpurs]

Still young. 1st proper season. Learning. Frustrating player. But. We will not sell as we want to recoup our 30 million. So get used to him guys.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Should we start looking at Eriksen's stats without the set pieces too? I think if we start doing stuff like this, particularly if we're cherry picking the situations where the players have gotten their goals and assists, only Kane will come out of any such comparison looking good.

I think people on both sides of the Lamela/Townsend debate are doing this. Certain posters like to point out that Townsend scores mainly from penalties. I in turn asked Jordinho how many of Lamela's prized assists were not from corners or weren't against QPR as I believe he got two against them? I wasn't really digging at Lamela, it was more to prove a point. I think you have to be fair to both and not try to distort stats either way.

 

[Jurgen the German]

So even on an off day he gets an assist? And this is bad?

I can think of at least one of our forward players who'd probably give one of his balls to regularly get assists on his good days.

I think it's a waste of time this whole tinkling contest as to who has been the least brick out of the two of them. Can't we all agree that they have both been very poor? The way both are playing, they need to be shipped out.

 

[billyiddo]

I don't play Football Manager...

To me, seeing a player run two yards and then lose the ball to the opponent, once... twice... three times... four times.... continuous for a whole half, is more than enough.

That kind of falls in to what is being said - you made your mind up in the first half because he gave the ball away a few times and was having a bit of a stinker - his much improved performance in the second half where he was a decent attacking threat gets ignored.

 

[scaramanga]

What happened to evaluating a player on what you see in front of your eyes?

You have a distorted and constructed memory of a distorted and constructed perception, both of which are subservient to whatever narrative your brain is operating under.

It's a far better idea to argue from facts as opposed to one's interpretation of what one thinks are facts.

 

[Cochise]

Thought he was poor today and has again knocked my confidence in him. Aside from the poor first half, I also think he got caught ball watching for the Saudi Sportswashing Machine goal and should've been the one following Colback into the box.

Not sure where his position is with us tbh.

 

[scaramanga]

That took some work to understand but you are absolutely right

As for the options, the game was crying for him to subbed for Yedlin at half time, go three at the back with advanced wing backs. But unfortunately Poch seems to have a real stubborn streak in him... though all's well that ends well.

Stubbornness for not switching to ineffective formations? I hope so.

 

[Jurgen the German]

It's a far better idea to argue from facts as opposed to one's interpretation of what one thinks are facts.

What are the facts? I don't mean to sound confrontational, just curious as to what you think they are.

 

[Maltese Falcon]

It's a far better idea to argue from facts as opposed to one's interpretation of what one thinks are facts.

Just like your vrecent arguments about Benteke, i suppose

Statistics are not facts and - seeing as you know so many things - you will know that the basic rule of statistics is that data should only the used to prompt an evaluation of potential hypothetical options, not to support a pre-established opinion or position; because you can find statistics to support any argument if you try hard enough.

I could agree with you if it were just my opinions; but when those opinions are mirrored by the majority and when those in contrary are - without in any way trying to be offensive - the usual suspects, then rationality starts to take on a concrete feeling...

As to your mention of ineffective formations; I could easily see Lamela was ineffective; whether Yedlin in his place would have been equally ineffective cannot be concluded since it needed to be tried out. Until then, remains a potentially viable hyopthesis which - for all your innuendos - you cannot rationally negate since it has never been put into effect.

 

[scaramanga]

What are the facts? I don't mean to sound confrontational, just curious as to what you think they are.

I posted a load of stats waaay back in this thread showing how much good work Lamela does. The subjective interpretation of that is that he's far better than many of his detractors are giving him credit for, a our best option for that position by some margin.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I posted a load of stats waaay back in this thread showing how much good work Lamela does. The subjective interpretation of that is that he's far better than many of his detractors are giving him credit for, a our best option for that position by some margin.

Stats in relation to what? Townsend has more goals, but most of them are "only penalties" according to some. Lamela has more assists, but if you want to nitpick, at least two of those are from corners.

 

[billyiddo]

I posted a load of stats waaay back in this thread showing how much good work Lamela does. The subjective interpretation of that is that he's far better than many of his detractors are giving him credit for, a our best option for that position by some margin.

It's clear to me he's our best option for that position, of those available, by some distance also - in terms of defensive work from the front and in terms of passing/creativity he's clearly out in front. however he is still way behind what we need from a starter in that position and unless he makes that step up next season he'll be moved on.

 

[Jurgen the German]

It's clear to me he's our best option for that position, by some distance also - in terms of defensive work from the front and in terms of passing/creativity. however he is still way behind what we need from a starter in that position and unless he makes that step up next season he'll be moved on.

Agree defensively he is better. Don't agree when it comes to passing and creativity.

Agree with the rest.

 

[billyiddo]

Agree defensively he is better. Don't agree when it comes to passing and creativity.

Agree with the rest.

You think Townsend is a better passer of the ball and creates more chances than Lamela?

 

[scaramanga]

Just like your vrecent arguments about Benteke, i suppose

My position on Benteke is almost entirely about stats. He's has one standout season. My point all along is that any standout season is unlikely to be matched. Until and unless it is, we shouldn't be paying the kind of money that suggests he's done it for a few seasons in a row.

Statistics are not facts and - seeing as you know so many things - you will know that the basic rule of statistics is that data should only the used to prompt an evaluation of potential hypothetical options, not to support a pre-established opinion or position; because you can find statistics to support any argument if you try hard enough.

How would you know the difference between a hypothesis and a pre-established opinion when it's in someone else's head?

I could agree with you if it were just my opinions; but when those opinions are mirrored by the majority and when those in contrary are - without in any way trying to be offensive - the usual suspects, then
rationality starts to take on a concrete feeling...

That's interesting, because if you asked me to sum up what most (and I would like to stress heavily, not all) of Lamela's detractors have in common, I'd have to go with a penchant for direct (to put it politely) football played by big, strong "English style" footballers. A preference for English managers and some regret that football isn't like it used to be when all these intelligent people started getting involved. Now I know a good bit of that rings true for you because we've discussed this kind of thing in the past.

As to your mention of ineffective formations; I could easily see Lamela was ineffective; whether Yedlin in his place would have been equally ineffective cannot be concluded since it needed to be tried out. Until then, remains a potentially viable hyopthesis which - for all your innuendos - you cannot rationally negate since it has never been put into effect.

It's a fairly rational position when almost all of our playing staff have been bought with our current formation in mind. When almost none of the most successful teams use the formation you're suggesting for anything other than a Hail Mary it starts to sound like tinkering for the sake of it.

Clearly the best option was to give Lamela more of a chance - especially as he's not been playing lately, and it worked out very well.

 

[scaramanga]

Stats in relation to what? Townsend has more goals, but most of them are "only penalties" according to some. Lamela has more assists, but if you want to nitpick, at least two of those are from corners.

Most publishers of stats will offer non-penalty goals as a separate stat as, for most people, it's a better description of a player's attacking ability.

I've never seen an "assists without corners" stat. Neither, for that matter, have I seen one for "goals that weren't Rabonas" or "assists that weren't weighted through balls from just outside the box" or anything else you'd like to cherry pick to make Lamela's stats look worse.

 

[scaramanga]

It's clear to me he's our best option for that position, of those available, by some distance also - in terms of defensive work from the front and in terms of passing/creativity he's clearly out in front. however he is still way behind what we need from a starter in that position and unless he makes that step up next season he'll be moved on.

Absolutely - he needs to step it up and I don't think anyone's denied that.

At the time I posted his dribbling stats though, I believe he was best or second best in the team, and stood up pretty well across the league as a whole. He's as far from the dud people are trying to make out as he is from the finished product.

 

[braineclipse]

I think people on both sides of the Lamela/Townsend debate are doing this. Certain posters like to point out that Townsend scores mainly from penalties. I in turn asked Jordinho how many of Lamela's prized assists were not from corners or weren't against QPR as I believe he got two against them? I wasn't really digging at Lamela, it was more to prove a point. I think you have to be fair to both and not try to distort stats either way.

I don't see it like that.

Excluding penalties from the number of goals scored is a pretty standard thing to do. It's been done in relation to Soldado on here quite regularly. If you google top scorers excluding penalties, or goals excluding penalties etc you get quite a few results. It makes sense as penalties really are outliers in that very few players get to take them and they are exceptionally good chances that it's possible to control for. No one is saying that it's not good to score penalties, but it's certainly a viewpoint worth exploring.

Excluding assists from corners and assists against the bottom 3 teams on the other hand is not a standard thing to do. It seems like a post-hoc exclusion list primarily made up to exclude as many as Lamela's assists as possible. I can't remember it for any player in the past.

So you have the people on one side of the debate doing what is quite common and done before with reason on this forum. On the other side of the debate you have what to me seems like cherry picking.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think we're more effective with him in the side too but he is a poor player in this league. The results will probably show we get better result too

What amazes me is the repetition of his errors. He does the same thing time and time again with his dribbling

 

[Jurgen the German]

Absolutely - he needs to step it up and I don't think anyone's denied that.

At the time I posted his dribbling stats though, I believe he was best or second best in the team, and stood up pretty well across the league as a whole. He's as far from the dud people are trying to make out as he is from the finished product.

Most publishers of stats will offer non-penalty goals as a separate stat as, for most people, it's a better description of a player's attacking ability.

I've never seen an "assists without corners" stat. Neither, for that matter, have I seen one for "goals that weren't Rabonas" or "assists that weren't weighted through balls from just outside the box" or anything else you'd like to cherry pick to make Lamela's stats look worse.

I think plenty of posters on both sides have cherry picked stats. Don't seem to recall you holding it against Soldado for example.