I liked Erik Lamela before it was cool

[Finney Is Back]

I was with the faithful (mad?) away following yesterday.

I think Lamela's first half was perhaps the worst display of football I have sen since Paulo Tremazzani's debut when he couldn't even take a throw in properly.... It really was that bad, all he did was lose the ball and generally without ever being under much pressure. If he had been taken off after 20 minutes I don't think anyone watching would've been surprised, he really was that bad. How he appeared for the second half I have no idea at all.

Second half though he was better (I know, I know.... he hardly could've been any worse). But his performance in the second half was actually just about ok.

What you get with Lamela is lots of effort, LOADS of infuriating moments and the odd bit of quality thrown in just when you are on the verge of completely giving up on him.

I still find it a huge shame that by far and away our best right sided midfielder is plying his trade for Everton.

 

[billyiddo]

^ Although it's a small sample size Lennon looks to have been no better than either of our RW options in the league this season (going by the dreaded stats at least) i haven't seen much of Everton since he left so it would be interesting to hear from those who have because the info suggests to me it's a case of grass being greener...

 

[Finney Is Back]

^ Although it's a small sample size Lennon looks to have been no better than either of our RW options in the league this season (going by the dreaded stats at least) i haven't seen much of Everton since he left so it would be interesting to hear from those who have because the info suggests to me it's a case of grass being greener...

I don't really like looking at stats that much to judge a player, I prefer to see their output with my own eyes.... For example if judging the respective Everton and Spurs games over the weekend on the stats you'd see Lamela credited with an assist and Lennon not and perhaps deduce that Lamela's performance was better than Lennon's - when Lennon actually won a penalty for Everton that Barkley failed to convert, whereas the hard work for Kane's goal was really done by Kane and Mason. I also heard reports from Lennon's game where he was classed as their best player (and I don't think anyone would be saying that about Lamela yesterday!)

Additionally I have seen a number of reports where Martinez has specifically praised Lennon and the impact he has had on the team and, indeed, their season since he went there.

Like I said above I don't think it is all bad with Lamela as he does show moments of quality, it's just that for every moment of quality he has 10 moments of absolute dross. Now that we have finally seen the back of the woeful Capoue and almost as woeful Soldado in our first team Lamela is clearly the weakest remaining link and desperately needs to be replaced with a quality player if we are to progress further next season.

On another note from where I was sitting yesterday I thought Paulinho had an excellent game. Probably the best overall contribution I have seen from him since he came to Spurs.

 

[billyiddo]

Comprehensive response -

As i said i haven't seen him play since he moved there, beyond highlights, so i can't judge him with my own eyes (hence the question)

 

[Rorschach]

First half in particular he wasn't good enough. Thought he improved in the second, kept it fairly simple. As always worked his socks off and for me no surprise that our pressing looked much better with him back in the side.

Can't fault his desire and work rate, like you I think he can still come good. Shame he didn't get the goal today as I think it would have done him good.

I agree with this. In the first half he never took the easy pass, which is the right pass 9 times out of 10, but tried to over complicate things and lost possession. Much improved in the 2nd half by keeping it simple and passing the way he was looking. Got an assist as well though it was hardly a difficult pass.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I wonder whether part of the reasoning behind Lamela being better in the second half yesterday (other than the one where it was simply impossible to do anything other than improve) was that Saudi Sportswashing Machine seemed to change their shape a bit.... In the first half Anita seemed to be pushed further forward and Lamela was often receiving the ball in our own half with a bit of pressure on him. In the second half it looked like Ameobi playing almost as an out and out wide forward with Anita staying much deeper as a left back. This led to Lamela receiving the ball further forward and also having no real pressure on him.

 

[harr1984]

I agree with this. In the first half he never took the easy pass, which is the right pass 9 times out of 10, but tried to over complicate things and lost possession. Much improved in the 2nd half by keeping it simple and passing the way he was looking. Got an assist as well though it was hardly a difficult pass.

The pass itself wasn't overly difficult to execute but could easily of been overcooked or played behind Kane, Ive seen a lot of scenarios where that has happened in games where players have had to break stride to receive the ball and has allowed the defender to catch up. Also the timing of the pass was perfect.

Not saying it was amazing play but good play nonetheless...

 

[Finney Is Back]

The pass itself wasn't overly difficult to execute but could easily of been overcooked or played behind Kane, Ive seen a lot of scenarios where that has happened in games where players have had to break stride to receive the ball and has allowed the defender to catch up. Also the timing of the pass was perfect.

Not saying it was amazing play but good play nonetheless...

It looked to me as though he delayed it a bit too long and Kane strayed offside but checked his run and got back onside?

 

[harr1984]

It looked to me as though he delayed it a bit too long and Kane strayed offside but checked his run and got back onside?

If that's the case I stand corrected, only watched the goal live and must say I didn't notice that....

 

[Finney Is Back]

If that's the case I stand corrected, only watched the goal live and must say I didn't notice that....

I could be wrong.... I was at the game so my view of it was likely to be even worse than yours... But I thought the linesman was going to put his flag up due to the delay in the pass being made. Hopefully I'll get the chance to watch the game in full later tonight as I Sky +'d it.

 

[Rorschach]

The pass itself wasn't overly difficult to execute but could easily of been overcooked or played behind Kane, Ive seen a lot of scenarios where that has happened in games where players have had to break stride to receive the ball and has allowed the defender to catch up. Also the timing of the pass was perfect.

Not saying it was amazing play but good play nonetheless...

Yeah that's fair enough. It was there to be fudged up I suppose and he didn't.

IMO Lamela has not adjusted to the speed of the PL at all. He won't get that extra second he seems to think he'll get. I guess some of that problem can be attributed to the fact that he hardly played in the first year, but I was hoping to see a better adjustment by now. There was a marked contrast in his performance in the 2nd half and I would guess that was due to the coaches input at half time. He released the ball quicker and played the obvious pass for the most part which is wasn't doing in the first half. This is what he needs to stick with for the remaining games. That one change coupled with his good work rate should see him nail down that spot for the rest of the season.

 

[Jurgen the German]

But they are two unrelated aspects of a players game - give the ball away 10 times but create 10 chances doesn't make you less creative than someone who doesn't give the ball away at all and lays on 4 chances for his team mates, for example. Im struggling to your point here..

Goals are barely worth mentioning for either of them as neither player offers enough in this regard, not by a long stretch and is something both have to improve on massively to have any future with us. Would have Townsend as a penalty taker though for sure as he looks to have that particular skill nailed down.

Key Pass and Chance Created stats, i believe, relates to passes made which put players in to scoring positions - i don't know the specifics though other than they are commonly used to illustrate a creative players impact on games (along with assists ofcourse but this relies on the shooter converting his chance), combined with forward passes and pass completion stats i think it paints a good picture of how much effect a player has. A player with high numbers in these areas are effectively creating the most chances for the team to score (which is what i see on the pitch with my own eyes)

Ultimately Lamela isn't creative enough, he's just slightly more creative than Townsend. This stat makes him look better than Townsend, but his stats are pretty poor on the whole.

The best way to pick would be to flip a coin (I know Poch can't actually do this ) as I have no preference as to who is picked. The problem I have is people trying to claim Lamela is miles better or his stats are miles better. I would stick with Lamela for Soton, but besides that assist (which I believe Townsend would have got zero credit for btw as it was a fairly simple pass), he was poor once again. I certainly don't think we look any better with him in the side compared to Townsend.

 

[metalgear]

i'm beginning to think that poch only requires workmanlike footballers with no style or pizazz; anyone who tries to do something vaguely that slows down the passing and pressing is going to find it hard to adapt.

even lennon does better in everton; he preferred that to fighting it out with townsend and lamela - perhaps lennon didn't buy in to poch's gameplan and how we asked to play.

 

[Maltese Falcon]

Yeah that's fair enough. It was there to be fudgeed up I suppose and he didn't.

IMO Lamela has not adjusted to the speed of the PL at all. He won't get that extra second he seems to think he'll get. I guess some of that problem can be attributed to the fact that he hardly played in the first year, but I was hoping to see a better adjustment by now. There was a marked contrast in his performance in the 2nd half and I would guess that was due to the coaches input at half time. He released the ball quicker and played the obvious pass for the most part which is wasn't doing in the first half. This is what he needs to stick with for the remaining games. That one change coupled with his good work rate should see him nail down that spot for the rest of the season.

I would rather side with the view of a previous poster that -- rather than any coaching input - this was as a result of Saudi Sportswashing Machine changing tactics and putting two up front, diluting the midfield therefore giving Lamela that extra space. I think you hit the tickle my balls with a feather when you said that he needs an extra second to make up his mind, to take people on and to play the pass. That fits in perfectly with his most creative games were against the likes of QPR and Burnley at the start of the season - before both adjusted to the Premiership pace and were still giving their opponents too much space and respect in midfield.

Problem is... he won't get that extra second against practically all of the Premiership meaning that his main contribution will be his work rate - there are loads of Championship midfielders who will give us that on half of his salary.

Will he start against the Saints next weekend? At least we will then see whether he can nail the spot until the summer... I wait to be convinced of that.

 

[Maltese Falcon]

I gladly admit when I'm wrong - it's just very, very rare. When I am proved wrong it tends to be by someone with fairly extreme levels of intelligence or intense, specific and applicable knowledge.

Shall we all assume that won't happen here?

You really are full of it!

 

[parklane1]

I think plenty of posters on both sides have cherry picked stats. Don't seem to recall you holding it against Soldado for example.

Indeed they do, one of the biggest things wrong with the game today is those that are always using stats to try and prove a point. Stats are a tool that can be used but they very rarely tell the truth/whole story and are used by many to try and prove their argument and usually wrongly.

 

[billyiddo]

I would rather side with the view of a previous poster that -- rather than any coaching input - this was as a result of Saudi Sportswashing Machine changing tactics and putting two up front, diluting the midfield therefore giving Lamela that extra space. I think you hit the tickle my balls with a feather when you said that he needs an extra second to make up his mind, to take people on and to play the pass. That fits in perfectly with his most creative games were against the likes of QPR and Burnley at the start of the season - before both adjusted to the Premiership pace and were still giving their opponents too much space and respect in midfield.

Problem is... he won't get that extra second against practically all of the Premiership meaning that his main contribution will be his work rate - there are loads of Championship midfielders who will give us that on half of his salary.

Will he start against the Saints next weekend? At least we will then see whether he can nail the spot until the summer... I wait to be convinced of that.

what do you mean his most creative games? i haven't noticed an unusual difference in his output when comparing games v the lesser teams and the better teams, in terms of creativity

at home to QPR and Burnley he made 3 and 4 key passes, according to whoscored.com
in both games against Arsenal he made 3 and at home to Southampton he made 3 (both teams who are renowned for closing down opponents in their half)

of course the stats don't tell you everything and won't highlight the intercepted through balls he plays quite regularly.

over the course of the season so far he has the highest number of assists for us in the league, 6 - 3 times as many as Eriksen who has 2. he is also only second to Eriksen in terms of key passes (Eriksen is on 2.2 Lamela on 1.6) for the entire squad. if you only look at away games he is top. this all points to him being fairly consistent in his creative output and measures up very well when compared to the rest of the squad.

in terms of creativity he is the least of our worries.

 

[Maltese Falcon]

what do you mean his most creative games? i haven't noticed an unusual difference in his output when comparing games v the lesser teams and the better teams, in terms of creativity

at home to QPR and Burnley he made 3 and 4 key passes, according to whoscored.com
in both games against Arsenal he made 3 and at home to Southampton he made 3 (both teams who are renowned for closing down opponents in their half)

of course the stats don't tell you everything and won't highlight the intercepted through balls he plays quite regularly.

over the course of the season so far he has the highest number of assists for us in the league, 6 - 3 times as many as Eriksen who has 2. he is also only second to Eriksen in terms of key passes (Eriksen is on 2.2 Lamela on 1.6) for the entire squad. if you only look at away games he is top. this all points to him being fairly consistent in his creative output and measures up very well when compared to the rest of the squad.

in terms of creativity he is the least of our worries.

To me the perfect answer to that is...

one of the biggest things wrong with the game today is those that are always using stats to try and prove a point. Stats are a tool that can be used but they very rarely tell the truth/whole story and are used by many to try and prove their argument and usually wrongly.

If you honestly are happy with Lamela's creative contribution, then by all means enjoy your opinion. Let's just say that I (and from this thread, clearly many other posters) have a different point of view.

 

[billyiddo]

To me the perfect answer to that is...

usually if someone shows me something which contradicts what i believe to be the case i'll have a look and maybe reconsider my stance but i have to say that is a handy get out clause for whenever that situation arises - just to be able to totally ignore anything which goes against your opinion, fair play

If you honestly are happy with Lamela's creative contribution, then by all means enjoy your opinion. Let's just say that I (and from this thread, clearly many other posters) have a different point of view.

am i happy with the creative contribution of the player in our squad who has the highest number of assists and has created goal scoring opportunities for his team mates more than anyone bar Eriksen?

am i actually supposed to not be happy with that?

 

[LCLC]

Another problem with stats is that it seemingly doesn't matter what kind of reasoning and rationality people use when presenting a stat. People will ignore that and rather argue the point they already had in mind as if they stat was posted completely in isolation.

Decision to play Kane through was perfectly fine. As you can see from this picture the Saudi Sportswashing Machine defender wasn't actually looking to read that exact pass with his body position as you claim. He was closer to Kane as Lamela broke, but Mason's run took drew in between the two and his momentum was actually taking him more towards Mason than Lamela. You can also see from that picture how the next Saudi Sportswashing Machine player (Ameobi?) is a lot closer to Mason than any player is to Kane. Whilst Mason's momentum is greater he's also more likely to run offside as he, unlike Kane, hasn't checked his run.

To be fair, you have selected the moment where the defender stood his ground but he was always facing that side for a pass. Plus that still doesn't show mason's momentum from his perfectly timed run or the fact kane was holding his run a bit, trying to avoid going too early. You are right that the pass to him was fine, it's an incredibly easy situation but most professional footballers imo would have chose the other option and thats why he gets himself into constant bother. No one was getting close to Mason.

The thing that struck me yesterday was his lack of first touch, control or vision. It could be down to confidence but something dramatic has to happen for him to turn a corner otherwise defenders will keep on getting tight looking to bully him and he hasn't got the touch, pace or stength to stop this currently,

I was an avid supporter up until the turn of the year, but then it dawned on me that he looks a terrible fit for us and this league. He also does himself no favours with his constant brain farts and I would be really pleasantly shocked if he went on to be the next big thing like he was billed upon arrival