Harry Winks

[Bedfordspurs]

Grew into the game, passing range has oddly deteriorated as his ability to beat a man has
Improved

I don’t want to go down the road of an upmarket Mark Noble but his passion is something we want to encompass as our ability to improve the squad grows.

he was more effective than Gungodan and the other lad they spent £60m on... that’s the view of the city fans by the way that I spoke too after the game

 

[MKSpur]

he was more effective than Gungodan and the other lad they spent £60m on... that’s the view of the city fans by the way that I spoke too after the game

I need to watch it on motd.

I will caveat that I’ve always believed that Fraudioala is a myth do his set up and choice of players is flawed.

Winks did well in the second half and I genuinely think it meant more to him than most. He’s also better under pressure than he is with time on the ball. I want him to be part of our squad

 

[Mosquito_Coasting]

He’s always had good acceleration.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I need to watch it on motd.

I will caveat that I’ve always believed that Fraudioala is a myth do his set up and choice of players is flawed.

Winks did well in the second half and I genuinely think it meant more to him than most. He’s also better under pressure than he is with time on the ball. I want him to be part of our squad

Was his birthday today

 

[DubaiSpur]

Was a a absolute machine yesterday. Hassled, harried, ran his heart out, and showed surprising bursts of speed and physicality at times.

I agree with @MKSpur - his passing is just a lot more incisive when he has to quickly spin and play it around a corner. No time for thinking, just instinct. And that was on full display today, alongside defensive tenaciousness and obviously that lung-bursting run to get Zinchenko sent off.

He's my MOTM, no doubt.

 

[Modric THFC]

A passer in midfield is only as good as his passing options.
If there is nothing on there is nothing he can do except go backwards.
Are there the players running off the ball making options or are they waiting for it to go back to the keeper or centre halfs to contest a long ball.
People are talking about the Barca game etc. In those games the opposition was open. He had space to space into.
But in the premier league against Watford and the like they are playing compact offering us nothing.

There's an argument for playing him in certain games. There's an argument for playing him if we want to play a certain way. He'd thrive in the Emirates Marketing Project midfield with players running off him for example. But it's a waste of time playing him in this team with the style we currently play.

Today was one of those days he has space to play against an open Emirates Marketing Project.

 

[afsoc4life]

Good game. Looks to be developing nicely under Mourinho.

 

[braineclipse]

Well Ndombele is a significantly better player who should also be starting I won't disagree but Winks was good today and as I said I've been very critical of him previously @Bedfordspurs will testify. I give credit and criticism where it's due and if a player improves I'll be fair there also and I think he has. His passing was a lot better, it wasn't always backwards, he still plays safe which is a result of the position he's been playing but today he played a number of taking passes. He is improving, let's just hope he keeps that up and doesn't regress.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Fapatalk

Ndombele is better on the ball, no doubt.

How about defensively? I've seen nothing from him so far to indicate that he can currently partner Lo Celso (or previously Eriksen) in a midfield two as the more defensive/positional player.

Winks hasn't been in great form this season, he's a young player still and the team has been largely dysfunctional. He's coming back to his best now and he's a very good player at his best. Hopefully he'll kick on from this and avoid more injury setbacks.

 

[Bishop]

Ndombele is better on the ball, no doubt.

How about defensively? I've seen nothing from him so far to indicate that he can currently partner Lo Celso (or previously Eriksen) in a midfield two as the more defensive/positional player.

Winks hasn't been in great form this season, he's a young player still and the team has been largely dysfunctional. He's coming back to his best now and he's a very good player at his best. Hopefully he'll kick on from this and avoid more injury setbacks.

I don't really think it's Ndombele or Winks/DM. It should be Lo Celso, Ndombele and Winks/DM.

Jose has a bit of a puzzle to fit both of the quality passers in the team in the shape we've been moving towards (433) along with trying to fit Dele in. I don't think it's possible and he will have to choose one option or the other. Maybe that can be on a game by game basis but ultimately it will need to be done.


Ndombele is too good and productive, I mean look at the assist he created in just 20 minutes total on the pitch to not have this guy playing as many minutes as possible.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Fapatalk

 

[DubaiSpur]

I don't really think it's Ndombele or Winks/DM. It should be Lo Celso, Ndombele and Winks/DM.

Jose has a bit of a puzzle to fit both of the quality passers in the team in the shape we've been moving towards (433) along with trying to fit Dele in. I don't think it's possible and he will have to choose one option or the other. Maybe that can be on a game by game basis but ultimately it will need to be done.


Ndombele is too good and productive, I mean look at the assist he created in just 20 minutes total on the pitch to not have this guy playing as many minutes as possible.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Fapatalk

I've been thinking a lot about this - fitting Lo Celso, Ndombele and Alli in the same team is definitely a challenge.

At the end of the summer window, Statsbomb's analysis model indicated that, in Ndombele, Lo Celso and Alli, we had secured the three best pressing midfielders in Europe. Note - not three 'of the best'. The three *best* pressing midfielders, as measured by how comprehensive their pressing was and how complete their game was outside of that.

To me, it made perfect sense in Poch's wonky 4-2-3-1 - Ndombele would be paired with a DM in the pivot, while the attacking midfield three would be Lo Celso (nominally on the right, but drifting in - the 'Eriksen' role), Alli in the middle and Son on the left.

But, the thing is, Poch's wonky 4-2-3-1 depends *heavily* on the full-backs to provide width - without them, it becomes the dreaded narrow diamond, which just isn't a good idea on pitches as wide as the ones we now play on.

We are faced with the same issue now - a wonky 4-2-3-1 will basically revert to a narrow diamond almost instantly, because the team doesn't have the full-backs for that formation. In fact, in a narrow diamond, Bergwijn/Lucas/Lamela/Clarke basically serve no purpose, and we need to accommodate all of our four wingers as well.

The only thing I can think of in terms of fitting them all in is to have them as a midfield three - Lo Celso holding, Ndombele shuttling, Alli advanced. With two 'traditional' full-backs in Tanganga on the right and Davies on the left to basically create 5-at-the-back, Lucas/Bergwijn and Son on the flanks to provide width and keep the opposition wary of lightning counters, and Lo Celso/Ndombele switching roles during the game - sometimes Ndombele sits in front of the back four, sometimes Lo Celso does. The one that doesn't sit goes forward to form a forward 5 with Lucas/Bergwijn, Alli, Lo Celso, Son and Kane.

That could work. Otherwise, maybe a back four like the one we've been trying, with Davies drifting inside to form a back three with the two center-backs, the right back bombing on, and Tanguy/Lo Celso sitting in front of the back line to recycle possession/be press resistant/act as a short out ball.

Either way, it's difficult.

 

[afsoc4life]

Agreed on last two poster. I suspect if Mourinho was truly free - Dele Alli would eventually be dropped if Jose sticks to 4-3-3 and he doesn't reinvent himself to either be a forward (perhaps a false 9) or a CM player.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Agreed on last two poster. I suspect if Mourinho was truly free - Dele Alli would eventually be dropped if Jose sticks to 4-3-3 and he doesn't reinvent himself to either be a forward (perhaps a false 9) or a CM player.

I agree
It’s great to have the options and I don’t see Dele going anywhere anytime soon but against quality sides I suspect he won’t be playing unless it’s in the attacking 3 and we will have a lot of options there fitnesses permitting
Maybe against lesser sides he plays in the position he did yesterday
Yesterday wasn’t a game to judge Dele on after that injury which would have had a big impact on his game

 

[braineclipse]

I don't really think it's Ndombele or Winks/DM. It should be Lo Celso, Ndombele and Winks/DM.

Jose has a bit of a puzzle to fit both of the quality passers in the team in the shape we've been moving towards (433) along with trying to fit Dele in. I don't think it's possible and he will have to choose one option or the other. Maybe that can be on a game by game basis but ultimately it will need to be done.


Ndombele is too good and productive, I mean look at the assist he created in just 20 minutes total on the pitch to not have this guy playing as many minutes as possible.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Fapatalk

We can discuss how we should or will line up going forward.

I was mostly talking about how we have played, and how Winks has played. He's played next to rather creative and attacking players in Lo Celso and Eriksen. He's done so in what has mostly been a midfield duo, though Alli does drop back at times to make it a three. He's done so against two of the best teams in Europe at the moment in Liverpool and Emirates Marketing Project.

He's played the positional/defensive role, and he's done it well. It's not a role I think Ndombele is ready for at this point, though perhaps in the future.

If Ndombele is to get into the current team I don't think it's at the expense of Winks.

 

[Bishop]

We can discuss how we should or will line up going forward.

I was mostly talking about how we have played, and how Winks has played. He's played next to rather creative and attacking players in Lo Celso and Eriksen. He's done so in what has mostly been a midfield duo, though Alli does drop back at times to make it a three. He's done so against two of the best teams in Europe at the moment in Liverpool and Emirates Marketing Project.

He's played the positional/defensive role, and he's done it well. It's not a role I think Ndombele is ready for at this point, though perhaps in the future.

If Ndombele is to get into the current team I don't think it's at the expense of Winks.

I agree with you as I never said it should be, he should be in addition to Winks (along with Lo Celso) and another other options we have for the role.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Fapatalk

 

[Raziel]

I've been thinking a lot about this - fitting Lo Celso, Ndombele and Alli in the same team is definitely a challenge.

At the end of the summer window, Statsbomb's analysis model indicated that, in Ndombele, Lo Celso and Alli, we had secured the three best pressing midfielders in Europe. Note - not three 'of the best'. The three *best* pressing midfielders, as measured by how comprehensive their pressing was and how complete their game was outside of that.

To me, it made perfect sense in Poch's wonky 4-2-3-1 - Ndombele would be paired with a DM in the pivot, while the attacking midfield three would be Lo Celso (nominally on the right, but drifting in - the 'Eriksen' role), Alli in the middle and Son on the left.

But, the thing is, Poch's wonky 4-2-3-1 depends *heavily* on the full-backs to provide width - without them, it becomes the dreaded narrow diamond, which just isn't a good idea on pitches as wide as the ones we now play on.

We are faced with the same issue now - a wonky 4-2-3-1 will basically revert to a narrow diamond almost instantly, because the team doesn't have the full-backs for that formation. In fact, in a narrow diamond, Bergwijn/Lucas/Lamela/Clarke basically serve no purpose, and we need to accommodate all of our four wingers as well.

The only thing I can think of in terms of fitting them all in is to have them as a midfield three - Lo Celso holding, Ndombele shuttling, Alli advanced. With two 'traditional' full-backs in Tanganga on the right and Davies on the left to basically create 5-at-the-back, Lucas/Bergwijn and Son on the flanks to provide width and keep the opposition wary of lightning counters, and Lo Celso/Ndombele switching roles during the game - sometimes Ndombele sits in front of the back four, sometimes Lo Celso does. The one that doesn't sit goes forward to form a forward 5 with Lucas/Bergwijn, Alli, Lo Celso, Son and Kane.

That could work. Otherwise, maybe a back four like the one we've been trying, with Davies drifting inside to form a back three with the two center-backs, the right back bombing on, and Tanguy/Lo Celso sitting in front of the back line to recycle possession/be press resistant/act as a short out ball.

Either way, it's difficult.

I think Dele loses out in best 11 .. you play 2 of the 3, you don't force fit all. To me the only "have to play" (if fit) right now are Kane, Son, Lo Celso, N'dombele

Probably not a bad place to be, Stevie, Dele, Lucas, Lamela, Winks, Gedson all options, either play or rotate, add a pure DM to the mix and your midfield and front look close to sorted (backup striker would still be nice)

 

[Robspur12]

Ndombele is better on the ball, no doubt.

How about defensively? I've seen nothing from him so far to indicate that he can currently partner Lo Celso (or previously Eriksen) in a midfield two as the more defensive/positional player.

Winks hasn't been in great form this season, he's a young player still and the team has been largely dysfunctional. He's coming back to his best now and he's a very good player at his best. Hopefully he'll kick on from this and avoid more injury setbacks.

I largely agree with this but it's a bit early to say he is coming back to his best. He was fantastic yesterday though as was Lo Celso -again. If we get the defensive midfield sort we will motor on again and I can be hopeful for the rest of the season.

 

[braineclipse]

I largely agree with this but it's a bit early to say he is coming back to his best. He was fantastic yesterday though as was Lo Celso -again. If we get the defensive midfield sort we will motor on again and I can be hopeful for the rest of the season.

I think he's been steadily improving recently, this wasn't just a one off good performance.

 

[Raziel]

I think he's been steadily improving recently, this wasn't just a one off good performance.

Not sure, I give him credit for yesterday (about the best Winks performance I can recall in some time) but he's had a poor season.

Hopefully he picks up (we need him to), suspect he will start the FA cup game.

 

[Lemonade Money]

DOG. brick.

Ndombele did more than him with one pass. Utter passenger, no invention and several turnovers.

Fair enough he got Zinchenko sent off, but that's the only positive from a 90 minute performance. Nowhere near good enough.

Think you need to watch the game again.

 

[elltrev]

I've been thinking a lot about this - fitting Lo Celso, Ndombele and Alli in the same team is definitely a challenge.

At the end of the summer window, Statsbomb's analysis model indicated that, in Ndombele, Lo Celso and Alli, we had secured the three best pressing midfielders in Europe. Note - not three 'of the best'. The three *best* pressing midfielders, as measured by how comprehensive their pressing was and how complete their game was outside of that.

To me, it made perfect sense in Poch's wonky 4-2-3-1 - Ndombele would be paired with a DM in the pivot, while the attacking midfield three would be Lo Celso (nominally on the right, but drifting in - the 'Eriksen' role), Alli in the middle and Son on the left.

But, the thing is, Poch's wonky 4-2-3-1 depends *heavily* on the full-backs to provide width - without them, it becomes the dreaded narrow diamond, which just isn't a good idea on pitches as wide as the ones we now play on.

We are faced with the same issue now - a wonky 4-2-3-1 will basically revert to a narrow diamond almost instantly, because the team doesn't have the full-backs for that formation. In fact, in a narrow diamond, Bergwijn/Lucas/Lamela/Clarke basically serve no purpose, and we need to accommodate all of our four wingers as well.

The only thing I can think of in terms of fitting them all in is to have them as a midfield three - Lo Celso holding, Ndombele shuttling, Alli advanced. With two 'traditional' full-backs in Tanganga on the right and Davies on the left to basically create 5-at-the-back, Lucas/Bergwijn and Son on the flanks to provide width and keep the opposition wary of lightning counters, and Lo Celso/Ndombele switching roles during the game - sometimes Ndombele sits in front of the back four, sometimes Lo Celso does. The one that doesn't sit goes forward to form a forward 5 with Lucas/Bergwijn, Alli, Lo Celso, Son and Kane.

That could work. Otherwise, maybe a back four like the one we've been trying, with Davies drifting inside to form a back three with the two center-backs, the right back bombing on, and Tanguy/Lo Celso sitting in front of the back line to recycle possession/be press resistant/act as a short out ball.

Either way, it's difficult.

Personally I don't think the 'wonky' needs width from both full-backs, as Son can hold his width on the left. And in Aurier we do have an attacking full-back to provide width on the right. I think Mourinho explicitly said this was the system that he was planning to implement when he first arrived - the right AM tucking in (which could be Lo Celso), and the right-back overlapping (Aurier), with a passer in CM (Ndombele) and a 'positional' player alongside him (I think a new signing in the summer, or Winks/Dier in the meantime).

Though admittedly I don't really see how the signings of Bergwijn and Fernandes fit into that system squad-wise, unless Mourinho really has started to see Winks as a viable 'positional' midfielder, rather than the passer? Something like:

Striker: Kane, ?
LAM: Son, Bergwijn
CAM: Alli, Lamela
RAM: Lo Celso, Moura (personally I see Moura as much more of a LAM in this system, but I think Mourinho has played him on the right more often)
CM 1: Ndombele, Fernandes
CM 2: Winks, Dier (or to be replaced by new signing in the summer)

(Personally I don't think we particularly need to factor in Clarke for now (or Parrott or Skipp for that matter) - seems a decent chance that they'll all be on loan next season).