Harry Redknapp: The Aftermath

[Fuego]

It seems you partly agree with me in that you don't think Harry's future should hinge on the outcome of the Bayern-Chelsea game. But it seems that you disagree with me in that you place a lot of importance on league position rather than points total.

I think the second half of this season lost it for him, for many reasons. The CL final couldn't save him. (Not that he'd deserve to be saved, but you can't easily fire a manager that achieves something.)


I hate them both. In my first post in this thread I used the points totals from Harry's 3 full seasons to show that we're currently moving sideways and doing it without getting CL money.

I have a long list of reasons why I'm no longer in favour of Harry getting a new contract, it outweighs the reasons I have for keeping him. Some of them are things to do with points and CL qualification, some are things to do with repeating tactical errors (something I've been prepared to overlook for his confidence boosting abilities) and most stuff ties in somewhere...


We keep collapsing: This is a points thing and another issue. This time there are really stupid reasons for it. (The collapse is still a results thing, some of the reasons are things like the England job.)


The list pretty much goes on like that... I can have a tactics issue (Sunderland) which is a performance/results issue, but it links to something Harry said which I didn't like...

This is the point it gets murky... He might have got home that day, moaned to his wife all week and been totally gutted by that point at Sunderland.... But his attitude of "yeah, it's a good point" is something I didn't particularly like.... The reason is gets murky is because he's this confidence breeding manager... We didn't get results or play well in that many of the games during the nightmare run.... So at that point I felt Harry wasn't doing the confidence magic he usually does and that just left a manager with occasionally glaring tactical errors that couldn't get the best out of the team.


He may have been talking to the media like that to try and keep the players up... But because he has this "nothing is wrong, nothing is my fault, everything is great" attitude when in the most awful of situations, it doesn't make me think the world of him.... Now I fudging suck at motivating people, being able to spot future stars, etc... I could not do very much of a manager's job at all, so I might be being unfair to Harry on this point.... But it's just one thing out of the many things he says.... Usually the annoying ones are more about protecting Harry than anything else. He seems to be defensive, aggressive, angry and speaks with a complete lack of thought sometimes. So when the fans have to deal with something going wrong, Harry isn't as professional as he could be...

Now, I love that he hates to lose. I love that he gets moody all week when he loses.... I have always liked that about him... So it is understandable when thinking clearly that he has reacted how a fan might react after a match with a bad performance and result... But this has happened since he arrived. We are constantly reminded about the good times that Harry has brought and the path to the Championship we were on.... From Harry that is the before and after... You'd think he turned Wolves into top 4 finishers. (In other leagues, other managers have won titles with teams that finished bottom or one from relegation, you'd think he did it at PL level from the sound of things.)

So one transfer window in a previous season we got:

Geoff: So Harry, any sweetners for the fans after today?

Harry: They've had nothing but sweetners since I've been here.




That trend of response continued to the more recent and commonly unfortunately worded things that get thrown around on here all the time now...

The problem is, we have created a small version of the world...

The Jonathon Ross thing, about 10k people heard it the first time, so someone complained and millions of people heard it....



We do that here. We come running up "look what he has said now, I'm offended".... Now on one hand, the guy represents our club, so fans should have the option of knowing what comes out of his mouth... But the people giving the second hand quotes are often anti-Harry and paraphrase...

One unfortunate quote was "people forget where they should be".... It's like Chinese whispers... No one explains the context or what Harry actually meant... People immediately take it to mean "Spurs belong mid-table"... It just snowballs...


That said, Harry says some stupid fudging things sometimes. I'm not a huge fan of an interview he did on Talksport (didn't he call people that just sat around and phoned Talksport idiots?).... Anyway, he made one comment about the Sunderland game, one comment about the run only being a bad performance against Norwich and he made a reference to a joke with George Best holding champagne and everything going well for him and some other guy asking him "where did it all go wrong?"

That last quote particularly annoyed me then and it annoys me now... We didn't win the impeding FA cup semi final, we didn't get into the CL... So no, no champagne this year...

That interview was also interesting because he explained why he wants Bale to roam and also said he wants Lennon to roam too... On one hand, I got to hear why Harry wanted that... I disagreed with his reasons, but at least I knew he had reasons... But that's the other hand, his logic was flawed. (Badly.)


But yeah, long story short. I have a very long list, there are many different types of reasons.... I've only listed a couple and I feel like I'm rambling.

I do love the team's style of play from earlier in the season though... Pressing, two actual wingers, lots of cross field balls, etc. It was beautiful. So if I could have the Harry we had until the Arsenal game for the entire season next time, I'm sure I could put up with losing to the big clubs, tactical errors from time to time and so on if we just improved a bit.

What I don't want is to have the best squad this club's had in an age to end up achieving nothing and a new manager being brought in to deal with the remnants of the golden generation... I want one manager to at least not underachieve, it's ok if they don't overachieve, just don't underachieve...

If Ade goes back and we don't replace him well, we could also lose Modric and Bale in the next couple of seasons, so while the stadium should bring stability, I don't want this club's best team since the double winning team to have achieved Europa League qualification in its prime. I know football is so dictated by money now that it's hard to fall into nothing from being a really good team and it's hard to become epic from nothing... So the money stops us being forgotten instantly.... I just don't know when we'll next be in a position to challenge for something... So far, my memories of Spurs in my lifetime are: Ramos winning us the Carling Cup, Jol taking us into Europe regularly and almost taking us to the CL and Harry taking us to the CL.


I was alive for the George Graham F.A Cup win.... But I was born in '88, my dad is an Arsenal supporter... I might have watched it and just don't remember... But I literally can't remember... So I want more than a Carling Cup win to remember... Playing in the CL is great, but "entering a competition" doesn't have the same ring to it as winning something.

(So yes, CL football is easily the most important thing for Spurs to progress. We need to be in it to be able to progress to the point that we can challenge for the league or the CL.... The thing is, I want us to be the opposite of Arsenal when it comes to strengthening our team... They enter the CL every year and each year they sell someone and reduce their chances of winning the competition.... I want us to enter it, stay in it until our stadium is done and if we can't pull off a Chelsea style fluke victory, we might then be able to build a team capable of being 3rd-8th best in Europe... From that point, it's entirely winnable due to it being a cup competition...)

Finally, something random and interesting on Harry, compared with Moyes... (Now Moyes arguably had Everton playing more attractive football than us for the last dozen or so games of the season. So I don't think he's dull when playing weaker teams... But he got a 4-4 against Man United, so maybe he wasn't dull in games he was usually dull in... Anyway, the important thing is the contrast.)


http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2012/mar/12/david-moyes-harry-redknapp-tactical-breakdown



Just like Harry vs Roy, they're so different it's funny.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

We would have sown up the third and CL if we had scored a winner, we were all over Villa and we put a DM on and settled for a point.

I don't believe that. We kept attacking until the final whistle. And you can't use one game in isolation as a reason as to why we failed to finish 3rd etc. Where you finish in the league is the sum of many many parts. If Sandro hadn't of given away a silly free kick against QPR, if Friedel hadn't made his only real blunder of the season from that free kick, if VDV hadn't ducked underneath the ball in the wall of that free kick we would have drawn against QPR and finished 3rd etc. You can spacegoat anyone for individual matches, even top players who have had excellent seasons.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

New training ground, new start. I can't see what good giving Harry(who has one year left on his contract) millions of pounds to spend on players will do.

What's your suggested alternative?

 

[billyiddo]

MK - i often see you picking apart what people have to say on here, not knocking you for it is something i often see from you - a question - if you was in Levy's shoes what would YOU do this summer ?

 

[Rossi22]

What's your suggested alternative?

Sack or hope Chelsea take him off our hands. Then build long term.

 

[Fuego]

I don't think the Villa game is a good example to use for any purpose as we were down to 10 men. I think if you want to blame Redknapp for the Villa game you're better off going down the route of why on earth haven't we signed a left back to at compete with Ekotto for the position, if not replace him as first choice. Same with Lennon on the right. By not having a ready made replacement for Lennon, we often had to go to this non-existant Plan B and that is what cost us.

I've been doing some analysis on our bad run of results (I still refuse to say form, because I don't believe we were playing that badly during the run) and for me there were three contributing factors that trump everything else:

1) Lennon gets injured we lose all shape and have to fit square pegs into round holes to accomodate. This completely ruined our attacking shape and made it harder to hit teams on the break, or break them down when they were playing deep.
2) During this period Bale developed a hero complex. Bale roaming around all over the place is fine if Lennon is staying wide and giving us width but when Lennon was out we had no width that side and then Bale would come in too tight and we'd have no width that side either. We effectively started playing a diamond formation which no one has really got to work successfully in the Premiership (cost Ancelotti his job at Chelsea!).
3) For some bizarre reason Redknapp dropped Dawson in favour of Kaboul when Dawson was playing superbly. Then Dawson got injured and defensively from set pieces we fell to bits.

A diamond would have had VDV at the point and Parker at the base.... Assuming Modric, Bale, VDV and a DM were all on the pitch at once, there's no space for Lennon in a diamond and he plays wide anyway... But point 1 only counts until Lennon came back... Point 2 annoys the fudge out of me and point 3 is void: Dawson was missing for the entire season until the Watford F.A Cup game, I think.... He stayed back until the Stevenage game... Many people put Dawson not being anywhere near the team during the first half of the season as a reason why we did so well. (I'm not saying it was, just that he was nowhere near the first team during the first half good run, so his injury wasn't like losing Kaboul...)


In place of point 3, I offer: Ledley King stopped being one of the best defenders in the Premier League shortly before our implosion... Different defender... He was 100% winning when he played 90 minutes and unbeaten when he started... That's fudging huge. He was our number one defender before this season started. Kaboul did amazingly well to reach the level he has.



I totally blame Redknapp for the Villa game... fudge the 10 men thing... We lost the first half 1-0 and we used the left side for 6% of our attacks... It's our strongest side... Even with BAE out, we still had Bale starting on that side. Losing the first half at Villa was a fudging disaster, he could have loaned Messi for the last 5 minutes and won 2-1 and the first half would still have been brick.



Note: I accept the Villa shot was badly deflected.... I also think that if Dawson was playing, he'd get hit in the fact and think "fudge yes, my face stopped that shot"... I love that about Dawson. He would use his testicles to block a shot from Drogba if he had the choice.

The lack of closing down for the shot combined the Gallas turning away deflection was unfortunate but avoidable... But we still lost the half and didn't perform as well as we should have.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Sack or hope Chelsea take him off our hands. Then build long term.

Define building long term? How would you go about that?

 

[Rossi22]

Rodgers. Young players. Stadium.

 

[Spursalot]

MK - i often see you picking apart what people have to say on here, not knocking you for it is something i often see from you - a question - if you was in Levy's shoes what would YOU do this summer ?

I would wince, my feet are definitely bigger than his.

 

[DHSF]

Rodgers. Young players. Stadium.

Whats this fascination with Rodgers?

Young Players? like?

Stadium? well that could be in four years time (optimistically) but realistically five years time.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

MK - i often see you picking apart what people have to say on here, not knocking you for it is something i often see from you - a question - if you was in Levy's shoes what would YOU do this summer ?

I guess it depends on what the expectations were pre-season. If Redknapp told Levy we should be winning the league, then 4th place is arguably a sacking offence. If the expectation was to finish top four then we succeeded in our aims and no change should be initiated.

It's difficult to say what he should do really. I'd love for Spurs to actually have all incoming transfer dealings wrapped up BEFORE pre-season starts. But I know this isn't a computer game so that is highly unlikely. We only have a finite amount of resource and we probably have to offload before we can onboard. If you look at recent history we have spent big under Levy on occasions but that was AFTER we sold Carrick for significant money and then Berbatov. So I think Levy will release funds if we have any, but to raise funds we need to sell.

If I were Levy? I'd back the Manager, give him a new contract. If Levy isn't prepared to back Redknapp? Then Redknapp has to go, and go now. There's no point in having a Manager who the Chairman has no faith in. I personally think Levy has wanted Redknapp gone for a long time, and didn't anticipate him being as successful as he has been. It's going to be an interesting couple of weeks......

One thing I will say that I hope Levy appreciates what the "Spurs Brand" of football (as he keeps talking about it) will actually bring. To create an open attacking attractive team AND achieve consistency is a very tough ask, and whether it be Redknapp or a replacement I just hope that Levy gives them the time to try and implement it. There may be months where our form dips as we try to do it, and during those periods we have to remain patient.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Rodgers. Young players. Stadium.

I admire what Rodgers has done this season. But what makes you think he'd be a success and not this years Mike Walker, Owen Coyle, George Burley etc?

Define young players? Grass roots level, late teens or early 20's? How much money should we spend on youngsters and do you believe we should have a maximum age limit on purchased players?

 

[Rossi22]

Whats this fascination with Rodgers?

Young Players? like?

Stadium? well that could be in four years time (optimistically) but realistically five years time.

A young manager with a clearly defined way of playing, personally I think Swansea are the best coached side in the League.

No names, whoever our scouting network(something else that can be improved) can find.

Well I did say long term.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

A young manager with a clearly defined way of playing, personally I think Swansea are the best coached side in the League.

No names, whoever our scouting network(something else that can be improved) can find.

Well I did say long term.

OK so with this in mind, say Redknapp is fired tomorrow and Rodgers hired. What are your minimum expectations for the new season compared to both Managers. E.g. what would be an acceptable finishing positioning for Spurs under Rodgers and is that position also acceptable under Redknapp or do we give Rodgers more slack?

 

[Rossi22]

I admire what Rodgers has done this season. But what makes you think he'd be a success and not this years Mike Walker, Owen Coyle, George Burley etc?

Define young players? Grass roots level, late teens or early 20's? How much money should we spend on youngsters and do you believe we should have a maximum age limit on purchased players?

The thing that sets him apart for me is how he has what is a squad of largely decent but limited players playing this brand of football. Other teams have come up and done well, but I can't say I can recall a newly promoted side dominating games home and away. I know possession isn't everything, but if you can get that group of players playing that way, then with the better quality of player Spurs can attract then I think the end product to that play will be far superior.

As for the young players comment I mean both really. Grass roots if Rodgers can bring in his coaching team and have young kids playing the same way as the senior side then that'd be great, would also be befitting of the ?ú45m training ground we've just forked out on. I'd rather we put more money into top coaching and trying to produce more of our own players than blowing ?ú15m here and ?ú20m there, a balance would be nice. But also look to signing top younger players from other clubs(16-23) with the odd older signing. Basically I just don't like all of this short term now now now feeling that Harry brings to the club, I don't blame him because he's 65 and it's a case of now or never from his pov.

 

[Rossi22]

OK so with this in mind, say Redknapp is fired tomorrow and Rodgers hired. What are your minimum expectations for the new season compared to both Managers. E.g. what would be an acceptable finishing positioning for Spurs under Rodgers and is that position also acceptable under Redknapp or do we give Rodgers more slack?

Hard to say because I'm thinking of this in terms of Modric and Bale going with us needing to rebuild. I'd just rather a long term manager was in charge of the rebuild rather than a 65 year old with one year left on his contract.

 

[Hotshot-Tottenham]

Hard to say because I'm thinking of this in terms of Modric and Bale going with us needing to rebuild. I'd just rather a long term manager was in charge of the rebuild rather than a 65 year old with one year left on his contract.

simple, give him another contract and make the most of the stability that - for the first time since Burkinshaw(?) - we've got. 65? so what, he's easily got 3 or 4 more years in him.

tell Modric and Bale to honour their contracts, just like last year and get the f*** on with it.

4th, 5th, 4th. stability, consistency, no shortage of quality. those are qualities we should be building on, not abandoning.

 

[billyiddo]

If I were Levy? I'd back the Manager, give him a new contract. If Levy isn't prepared to back Redknapp? Then Redknapp has to go, and go now. There's no point in having a Manager who the Chairman has no faith in. I personally think Levy has wanted Redknapp gone for a long time, and didn't anticipate him being as successful as he has been. It's going to be an interesting couple of weeks......

One thing I will say that I hope Levy appreciates what the "Spurs Brand" of football (as he keeps talking about it) will actually bring. To create an open attacking attractive team AND achieve consistency is a very tough ask, and whether it be Redknapp or a replacement I just hope that Levy gives them the time to try and implement it. There may be months where our form dips as we try to do it, and during those periods we have to remain patient.

i somewhat agree with that, i don't particularly think he has wanted him gone but i definitely think he was a stop gap appointment which has worked out better than he had hoped. Id like to think that if that was the case then he has some idea as to what he will be doing should he decide to replace Redknapp.

i wouldn't be surprised if he has been looking at a DoF type set up - hopefully looking at where we went wrong with it in the past so that the mistakes we made (giving the DoF too much say in the first team/having a coach who the DoF doesn't have faith in) are avoided this time around.

it's funny because i think Redknapp would benefit greatly working underneath an experienced DoF - there's no arguing from me that he can work wonders with a group of players at his disposal - but i do have doubts about his ability in the transfer market at this level, going by what he has said about being undecided on certain targets (Suarez/Hunterlaar of the top of my head) and that he has generally to stuck to tried and tested 'safe' signings, Parker/Adebayor backs that up (IMO)

 

[NLS]

Levy.....'So Harry, if Hodgson resigned or was sacked within 6 months would you want the England job?'

Harry ponders before answering.....

Levy, 'No, get lost then how can you expect the players to want to stay if you are looking to go'.

 

[Spur of the moment]

simple, give him another contract and make the most of the stability that - for the first time since Burkinshaw(?) - we've got. 65? so what, he's easily got 3 or 4 more years in him.

tell Modric and Bale to honour their contracts, just like last year and get the f*** on with it.

4th, 5th, 4th. stability, consistency, no shortage of quality. those are qualities we should be building on, not abandoning.

Well said.

This last season has been imho our best for quality of football since the early 60s. The last thing I want is to see Harry sacked. Given the gargantuan amounts being sunk into the stinking rich what are the chances of a new man coming in and improving on what Harry has achieved?