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Giovani Lo Celso

nayenezgani said:
Regardless I'd rather have a shrewd deal-maker running the club than say, the the dildo brothers.
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That's fair, but it doesn't really change the point I made - Levy's known for starting low, and renegotiatating deals if he feels he's paying too much. Really nothing more to it.

Yermiyahu said:
It fits their narrative of Levy, the tightwad Jew, denying them the right to watch our club win trophies whilst he sits in a corner gleefully rubbing his hands together and trousering all the money for himself and Joe. Never mind that he has taken the club from a basket case to CL finalists with the world's best stadium,that's irrelevant.
It honestly defies belief but once people get an idea in their tiny minds.
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I will point out that you are the one who brought up the 'tightwad Jew' angle. Nobody else, in the entire history of the forum (in all the years I've been here), did. You were the first. Congratulations, I guess?

I just think he's tight, and has historically cheaped out enough in the market that it's perfectly possible that he lowballs opening bids like the alleged one for Lo Celso. It's possible, and probable.

He could be a shamanistic Gokturk for all I care - cheap folks are blessedly universal. :p
 
DubaiSpur said:
That's fair, but it doesn't really change the point I made - Levy's known for starting low, and renegotiatating deals if he feels he's paying too much. Really nothing more to it.



I will point out that you are the one who bought up the 'tightwad Jew' angle. Nobody else, in the entire history of the forum (in all the years I've been here), did. You were the first. Congratulations, I guess?

I just think he's tight, and has historically cheaped out enough in the market that it's perfectly possible that he lowballs opening bids like the alleged one for Lo Celso. It's possible, and probable.

He could be a shamanistic Gokturk for all I care - cheap folks are blessedly universal. :p
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But surely that is how you start a negotiation? When you run a business, and football is unfortunately just that in this day and age, one of the main strategies is negotiation, so should Daniel Levy not negotiate? I'm fascinated to see how you think that he should approach this? I don't like the word 'tight', it has pejorative implications and therefore would prefer to describe Mr. Levy as cautious or careful with the clubs finances. A strategy that even you must admit has served us very well.
 
Yermiyahu said:
So I will ask again. Do you not negotiate a purchase? If you buy a house or car for example, do you not make an opening offer below the asking price?
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It depends on the market. I have bought houses making offers under the asking price (sometimes considerably lower). However I have also bought houses by going straight in at the asking price and even immediately bidding over the asking price. It is the same story with cars. If you want a very specific, rare care then you may have to make a bid for an amount that is higher than the market valuation of the car. Sometimes you have to consider how much you want something, how much other people want it and how much it is worth to you as opposed to the 'general market'.
 
Finney Is Back said:
It depends on the market. I have bought houses making offers under the asking price (sometimes considerably lower). However I have also bought houses by going straight in at the asking price and even immediately bidding over the asking price. It is the same story with cars. If you want a very specific, rare care then you may have to make a bid for an amount that is higher than the market valuation of the car. Sometimes you have to consider how much you want something, how much other people want it and how much it is worth to you as opposed to the 'general market'.
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The asking price in this case is technically the release clause

In reality in football you don’t know how much a player will cost until you make an offer as their isnt an advertised price
 
Yermiyahu said:
But surely that is how you start a negotiation? When you run a business, and football is unfortunately just that in this day and age, one of the main strategies is negotiation, so should Daniel Levy not negotiate? I'm fascinated to see how you think that he should approach this? I don't like the word 'tight', it has pejorative implications and therefore would prefer to describe Mr. Levy as cautious or careful with the clubs finances. A strategy that even you must admit has served us very well.
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It's not always how you start a negotiation. Sometimes in-demand items need to be secured at opportune times - before wealthier competitors arrive on the market to outbid you, or in time for major decision points to occur. That means bidding higher than would be the case, were you to start at £1 and haggle your way up to £70,000,000 or whatever.

Sometimes it's also a statement when you secure a purchase quickly, since it demonstrates intent - securing the asset quickly is more important than securing the very best possible deal on that asset.

We need both this summer - we need big signings done quickly, and we need statements of intent. And although Levy's legendary cautiousness has paid off at times, there are times when it is a crippling, frustrating liability, and that speaks to it being more than just a business practice - it also seems to be a personal trait.

We could do what we do every single summer and wait until the big boys take all the players and then haggle until the dying days of the window, before picking up whatever random scraps are left (sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe brick)...but I doubt that would convince anyone at the club as to the ambition of our intentions.
 
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DubaiSpur said:
It's not always how you start a negotiation. Sometimes in-demand items need to be secured at opportune times - before wealthier competitors arrive on the market to outbid you, or in time for major decision points to occur. That means bidding higher than would be the case, were you to start at £1 and haggle your way up to £70,000,000 or whatever.

Sometimes it's also a statement when you secure a purchase quickly, since it demonstrates intent - securing the asset quickly is more important than securing the very best possible deal on that asset.

We need both this summer - we need big signings done quickly, and we need statements of intent. And although Levy's legendary cautiousness has paid off at times, there are times when it is a crippling, frustrating liability, and that speaks to it being more than just a business practice - it also seems to be a personal trait.

We could do what we do every single summer and haggle like misers until the dying days of the window, before picking up whatever random scraps are left (sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe brick), but I doubt that would convince anyone at the club as to the ambition of our intentions.
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I'm sorry but again I must disagree, I don't feel we need big signings,but rather that we need clever signings. This is the policy that has served us well so far and is one I feel would do well to see us continue. I'd rather leave the 'big Signings' Pogba and Sanchez et al, to the likes of Manchester Utd.
 
Finney Is Back said:
It depends on the market. I have bought houses making offers under the asking price (sometimes considerably lower). However I have also bought houses by going straight in at the asking price and even immediately bidding over the asking price. It is the same story with cars. If you want a very specific, rare care then you may have to make a bid for an amount that is higher than the market valuation of the car. Sometimes you have to consider how much you want something, how much other people want it and how much it is worth to you as opposed to the 'general market'.
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Fair point, even I paid the asking house for a house once but it did represent a very good deal. With regard to the purchase of a rare car, well I see your point I don't feel as a club though that we have a need to be doing that. Our carefully executed plan of caution has served us well thus far.
 
DubaiSpur said:
It's not always how you start a negotiation. Sometimes in-demand items need to be secured at opportune times - before wealthier competitors arrive on the market to outbid you, or in time for major decision points to occur. That means bidding higher than would be the case, were you to start at £1 and haggle your way up to £70,000,000 or whatever.

Sometimes it's also a statement when you secure a purchase quickly, since it demonstrates intent - securing the asset quickly is more important than securing the very best possible deal on that asset.

We need both this summer - we need big signings done quickly, and we need statements of intent. And although Levy's legendary cautiousness has paid off at times, there are times when it is a crippling, frustrating liability, and that speaks to it being more than just a business practice - it also seems to be a personal trait.

We could do what we do every single summer and haggle like misers until the dying days of the window, before picking up whatever random scraps are left (sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe brick), but I doubt that would convince anyone at the club as to the ambition of our intentions.
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Surely building the finest stadium in world football is a clear sign of our intentions to anyone, at the club or elsewhere?
 
Yermiyahu said:
I'm sorry but again I must disagree, I don't feel we need big signings,but rather that we need clever signings. This is the policy that has served us well so far and is one I feel would do well to see us continue. I'd rather leave the 'big Signings' Pogba and Sanchez et al, to the likes of Manchester Utd.
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The thing is, we can't rely on being clever. Although admittedly he says many things on the subject, Poch said as much. We can't keep thinking we're smarter than the market and can eat the costs of going ostensibly 'smart' over going big and bold.

And there are definitely costs - costs to bring them up to speed, costs to shape them into the players Poch wants them to be, costs to overlook the errors and stumbles while they learn that would not be present in a more well-rounded signing.

The market definitely undervalues certain players (and overvalues others). But, on aggregate, good players cost money, and the better they are, the more they cost. That is a rough truth that is eternal.

And at some stage, we really do need to think about what we are - perpetual paupers on a shoestring budget, slowly grasping at leftovers two days before the window closes? Or bold, brave and rapid, securing the top-class players we want at speed, in time for pre-season, in time for adjustment, and before the other teams begin moving?

I hope Levy thinks we're the latter now. My fear is that he remains stuck with his habits, and sticks with the former.
 
Yermiyahu said:
Surely building the finest stadium in world football is a clear sign of our intentions to anyone, at the club or elsewhere?
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Sure, mate. but who do you fill it with? Players don't care about the mythical cheese room, they care about who their team-mates will be.

And if their team-mate is some Champo clogger purchased for a bargain fee five minutes before the deadline, what use is the stadium? They're the ones that will have to play in it, with said bargain bin signing.

We need to act like a club that befits that stadium - not play in the new ground but think like we're at the old Lane, quaking in our boots at the thought of spending a single penny more than is absolutely necessary to secure a player, and then only after selling enough players to be sure of a zero net spend.
 
Yermiyahu said:
So I will ask again. Do you not negotiate a purchase? If you buy a house or car for example, do you not make an opening offer below the asking price?
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I will try to make it clearer for you to understand then, yes I would, but not so low that that I would make the seller think I am simply wasting their time, and as such would not be taken seriously.
 
Yermiyahu said:
I'm sorry but again I must disagree, I don't feel we need big signings,but rather that we need clever signings. This is the policy that has served us well so far and is one I feel would do well to see us continue. I'd rather leave the 'big Signings' Pogba and Sanchez et al, to the likes of Manchester Utd.
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We may not need big signings but we do need a signing if Poch has made it clear it is a player that he definitely needs. And in this case we really do not want to be drawn in a situation where he has a good Copa America and then there is a auction for this player.
 
Kandi1977 said:
If only any transfers where happening....
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The funny thing is, if we had not gone two transfers without signing anyone I am sure I would be feeling more relaxed when it comes to bringing players in. Anyway I have all my bits crossed and will now step back and leave it to Levy to get the job done
 
By the way @Yermiyahu there is one more thing, I should have stated that the main reason I thought the bid was too low is because I believe Betis have to pay PSG a 25% sell on fee
 
Perhaps some slightly more informed comment than just opinion from those who want to tar Levy with always opening with ridiculous penny-pinching or praise him automatically for fiscal responsibility.
This is from Lyall Thomas who may have a bit of knowledge:

“He’s [Lo Celso] the top target for the number 10 position. I understand the clubs have been talking for over a week now, going on two weeks… There was a reported offer in Spain, but what I was told by a source was that wasn’t necessarily correct, that the offer was a bit more informal or at least it was an indication of what Spurs were willing to pay. But I hear that Betis have been tempted by it. They’re also thinking about the release clause he’s got and they can afford to be patient and see how things play out. If you’re got a release clause you don’t necessarily take the first offer you get. This could be one that drags out. Tottenham have wanted a new number 10 for a while, since Grealish fell through, they’ve prioritised this position and they’re willing to spend a sizeable amount of money.”"
 
they paid £20M for him last month - double your money in a month may have been what we were hoping.

Sell on clauses can be on the full amount or above the purchase price - we will not know what PSG have.
 
r-u-s-x said:
they paid £20M for him last month - double your money in a month may have been what we were hoping.

Sell on clauses can be on the full amount or above the purchase price - we will not know what PSG have.
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Standard practice is that sell-on clauses are a percentage of profit (or in some cases at a set figure even higher than the transfer fee paid). It is very rare for them to be payable on the full transfer fee. My guess is that Betis would have to give PSG 25% of anything over £20 million.
 
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