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ENIC

Sigh. I know what Liverpool Football Club is about.

What I am talking about is NOT a 'myth' it is a reality.
Two exciting young managers in the league bringing a new level of pressing to the game.

On Oct 17th 2017, there was this game. Spurs 4 Liverpool 1. We were 3rd in the table and Liverpool were 9th. Remember, we'd spent the previous two seasons as the best club in the Prem (there was that weird stat where over two seasons we were the 'best')...
...Liverpool sold Coutinho and immediately addressed two areas Klopp felt were key. Keeper and CB. Remember too that the previous close season, we did not get either Mane or Winaldjum over the line (Mitchell quit, etc). I think it's fair to say that Allison and Van Dyk were transformative signings which helped Liverpool gain the platform to stride into great things.

We finished 10 points ahead of Liverpool in 2015/16
We finished 10 points ahead of Liverpool in 2016/17
We finished 2 points ahead of Liverpool in 2017/18
We finshed 26 points behind Liverpool in 2018/19


We spent a few years AHEAD of Liverpool and AHEAD of what Klopp was doing. The difference came in how each club operates.

Your West Ham equivalent is wrong because they have never had that level over us in the Premier League (or any that I can recall).

Mate, come on

- You just moved the goalposts from when Klopp joined to 2 years later
- Liverpool literally while behind us points wise in those years were not behind us financially (they have literally had 30+ years of financial advantage year over year)
- What happens in 2017 -2019? hint, club has another expense to start paying for (that was spiraling over cost)
- Yes, Pool did well with both the manager appointment and Allison, VVD but they have had duds, their duds don't matter as much (see thing about money), where ours (Ndombele/Lo Celso) cost us for years.

It's bricky timing (and typical Spurs) but it isn't some plot of incompetency by the club

Tottenham and Arsenal greatly diverged after we pipped them in May 2022 to CL, we've gone in greatly opposite direction...do we blame the stadium build for that too or just our own incompetence?

Do you actually want to look at Arsenal's results

- Pre stadium, post stadium and 7 years later? because hilariously you will probably prove the point everyone else has been making
- And again, moving goalposts, no one is arguing that the Jose (caveat Covid), Conte, Ange eras don't have significant mistakes (been clear my biggest bug with club right now is Ange is still here. The stadium and it's impact was necessary medicine that was always going to hurt short term, unfortunately to my earlier point, the timing was catastrophically bad.)
 
My point as always is that the excuses wear thin after 20 years plus. Yes, we can all be nuanced on the different events that have been said to have 'held us back' when in reality there has been one constant over that time.
I certainly am tired of the debate about the excuses people keep listing for ENIC which do wear thin now, e.g. what's the excuse now for Arsenal to having overtaken us in such drastic fashion recently? It certainly cannot realistically be any of the ones i listed...

Because you're tired of and unwilling to entertain them doesn't make them any less valid 😂

Arsenal currently aren't really doing anything we didn't under Poch but it is them that are to be lauded while we should be having an inquest as to why we didn't do better? I mean have a think about that and see if you can spot the discrepancy in how those are being viewed differently.

There is no excuse as such for why we have dropped off while they have kicked on - i think I have explained my view on this time period in posts over the last few days and iirc no 'excuses' were offered, but to expand/recap:



Arsenal set about a second post-Wenger rebuild (earlier botched attempt with Sven Misilntat/Emery) with Edu & Arteta, they had a 2-3 season period laying foundations wrt squad building, including clearing the squad of high earners & investing in youth, this included 3 seasons outside of the CL on top of the 2 or 3 years previous they were outside of it under Wenger & Emery, i think they also had a couple of years out of Europe altogether during this 5-6 year period but not sure of specifics. Once the squad was in good shape and the team was clicking with the managers project they invested in good quality first team players to plug the few obvious gaps, culminating in the Rice transfer. They reached a point where they had seemingly maxed what they were willing or able to spend and this season regressed on the pitch from the levels they had reached previously, though still have an opportunity to win the big one.

The mistake you are making IMV is comparing us in 2022 with them in the same year - in 2022 they were already several seasons in to their (2nd!) rebuild project, whereas we had barely started on our Paratici led rebuild-that-wasnt-really-a-rebuild, yes we had finished above them that season but the clubs were in different places and with different momentum and ground work behind them. Arsenal were adding the final pieces to a project 3 years in, we was flogging the last remaining quality from Poch era and putting off a top to tail rebuild that was long over due. That said in that post 4th place summer we did buy Richarlson (as backup to Kane, 60m) Bissouma (ahead of Arsenal funnily enough), made permanent the Romero loan, Perisic, Spence, Udogie & Porro joined in Jan, not a bad window truth be told.

Post Conte we clearly made a conscious decision to finally commit to the rebuild that anyone and everyone in the Spurs fansphere was saying at the time was sorely needed - we are now 2 years or so in to that, if you're set on comparisons with Arsenal then where we are now/the summer is where they were going in to Artetas 3rd season, the one in which they finished 5th.

So I put it that next season if we get ourselves back to pushing for top 4 and clicking with whoever the new manager is then we're tracking the much more ambitious and clued up Arsenal quite well. We can also see from the above that mistakes are made on their way, Arsenal haven't had constant upward curve of progress post Wenger under their ownership model, they botched one attempt at a rebuild and sacked a clearly talented manager (Emery) and then spent 2-3 further seasons bumbling around the Europa/non European places, where they clearly could have made better decisions there and then to be doing better. So let's have it right...
 
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Those clubs found the secret to success and had owners that created a winning culture that over comes financial disparity - there's no way they just dropped off without a trace
All of those clubs are traditionally much smaller than Spurs. They all overachieved massively in winning trophies, something we have failed to do (possibly because our head honcho puts the asset valuation over trophies)
 
Possibly, I think he was realist and would have lost a player to gain in the long run. His later comments and willingness to sell Eriksen and Toby whilst both were still in their physical prime support my view.
To be fair it didn’t matter…. Levy had let the club get into such a state that the legendary Steve Hitchen was our head of recruitment.
 
My point as always is that the excuses wear thin after 20 years plus. Yes, we can all be nuanced on the different events that have been said to have 'held us back' when in reality there has been one constant over that time.
I certainly am tired of the debate about the excuses people keep listing for ENIC which do wear thin now, e.g. what's the excuse now for Arsenal to having overtaken us in such drastic fashion recently? It certainly cannot realistically be any of the ones i listed...

Not only that, but people also downplay other teams success:

Leicester - Fluke one off who got relegated soon after, even though they also won the FA cup.

Liverpool - Always above us anyway/should be winning things/doping

Arsenal - I’ve seen people say they should be disappointed even if they win the CL. If they don’t win the CL then absolutely, but winning the biggest club prize in football would eclipse anything we’ve ever done.

People have a real problem giving other teams credit, I guess because they feel like it makes our lack of success look even worse. Saying churlish things like “it won’t last”.
 
I think a stadium build is a more than reasonable enough explanation for why the two clubs paths diverted at that point.
I think there are several reasons; that is certainly one of them...however...
It was possible to sell Eriksen and Alderweireld when the manager wanted and upgrade them/replace them as the manager wanted. It was also possible to sign Mane/Winaldjum the previous summer instead of ending up spending 40 mill on Sissoko and whatever on Nkoudou (there's that 'wages' thing again).
It's certainly an explanation/factor, but again, why did we settle for Nkoudous, Sissokos, and Janssens rather than actually get the players he really wanted and refresh the squad when he wanted to?
 
The John Henry / Fenway Sports Group is actually a great story. I can't do anything but admire what a farmer's son Henry has achieved in his lifetime. Football people are snobbish in that they believe you have to be a sports person to work in football. Henry has proven that running winning clubs like Red Sox is transferable. The first thing he did when he bought Liverpool was hired an exec whose sole job was to bridge the Atlantic. He made sure that LFC had a man sitting at his table back in the US and advocating for them. Then FSG built out all those layers you're now seeing THFC build. We've brought our own man in who has Rugby, Athletics and Football experience. All Spurs fans do is make him the spacegoat.

My advice to THFC would be to keep going with this new structure. Build everything to keep our new manager as the point of the spear just like LFC did to make Klopp successful.

The harsh realisation for me was when LFC got Wijnaldum and Mane whilst we got Sissoko. It wasn't so much when all those crazy deals with Neymar, Coutinho, VVD etc were setup as dominoes. That was just one of those things that happens in football. It was the day-to-day management of LFC that was more impressive. Years and years of fantastic signings just like the 3 midfield lads that owned us on Sunday. What great signings they've been.

THFC have to become the same operations machine that we're seeing from LFC and AFC. It doesn't feel like it right now, but we're doing so many of the right things to get the right model in place. We need our own Klopp though.

Agreed, and certainly part of the point I was making/debate I was offering up. Interesting discussion...
 
I think we're caught in the loop of what is called the Golem effect. Been reading about it in a book, and it seems to fit like a glove with us.


We're always shat on, made fun of, even from within we rarely have faith. No wonder then, according to this, we win fudge all. It's maybe not about ENIC at all - but the all encompassing narrative about our football club.

There is a real conversation there I've hinted at before

- Spurs is too big to ever have a free hit at a trophy, e.g. a Leicester/Wigan/Birmingham/etc. we will never be able to approach a SF/Final with a purely "nothing too lose approach" Extraordinary pressure to get the trophy monkey off the back.
- Spurs is too small for players to have the expectation/belief that comes with being an elite club (Madrid players expect they will win)
- We are relevant enough to be hated, there is a reason beyond Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, others, even brick clubs like Leicester don't like us, we are a legitimate threat to the status quo (if we ever make do on that threat is a separate conversation). And you see that played down with "when will Spurs be regular challengers", we have fudging been for 15+ years, and never given credit.

And as all Spurs social media can attest, nobody buys the narrative like a Spurs fan, nobody is more willing to accept any derogatory statement against the club, ownership, "right kind of fans" than ourselves.
 
Not only that, but people also downplay other teams success:

Leicester - Fluke one off who got relegated soon after, even though they also won the FA cup.

Liverpool - Always above us anyway/should be winning things/doping

Arsenal - I’ve seen people say they should be disappointed even if they win the CL. If they don’t win the CL then absolutely, but winning the biggest club prize in football would eclipse anything we’ve ever done.

People have a real problem giving other teams credit, I guess because they feel like it makes our lack of success look even worse. Saying churlish things like “it won’t last”.

Nuance

- Leicester is a fluke and a case of flying too close to the sun. Relegated twice now with impending points deduction in Championship waiting. Never able to translate that on field success to financial growth. This is exactly the conversation to have, would you trade two trophies for years in the Championship and potential long term future of the club? and if you would, do you really care about the club or is it a flex for you?

- United (in a financial league of their own compared to anyone) & Liverpool are the biggest clubs in UK by some distance, when United inevitably gets back to a challenging position are we going to take about the league finishes above them and why didn't we make it count?

- Arsenal winning the CL would be an extraordinary accomplishment for them, doubly so as European success is the thing they have never achieved. No question the season would be a success, but they have failed in the league and now are in the same position as us, win a cup and it's a good season, lose it and real questions and change possibly to follow.

To your last point I completely disagree, the amount of if we were just run like Leicester, Forest, Brighton, Wolves, whoever the fudge the flavor of the season is I hear on this board, only for that club not to get mentioned again once the revert to mean inevitably happens.

City, Chelsea, Liverpool are the success stories of the last decade, and two of those have done it by money doping ..
 
There is a real conversation there I've hinted at before

- Spurs is too big to ever have a free hit at a trophy, e.g. a Leicester/Wigan/Birmingham/etc. we will never be able to approach a SF/Final with a purely "nothing too lose approach" Extraordinary pressure to get the trophy monkey off the back.
- Spurs is too small for players to have the expectation/belief that comes with being an elite club (Madrid players expect they will win)
- We are relevant enough to be hated, there is a reason beyond Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, others, even brick clubs like Leicester don't like us, we are a legitimate threat to the status quo (if we ever make do on that threat is a separate conversation). And you see that played down with "when will Spurs be regular challengers", we have fudging been for 15+ years, and never given credit.

And as all Spurs social media can attest, nobody buys the narrative like a Spurs fan, nobody is more willing to accept any derogatory statement against the club, ownership, "right kind of fans" than ourselves.
Well of all the excuses I've heard the 'Spurs are too big to have a free hit at a trophy' is certainly original :D Like a fine wine these excuses are getting better and better.

And this season is as much of a free hit as we have ever had, the league has been a write off for months so let's hope we win the Europa at least. We were in the Conference league which with our squad should have comfortably been getting to the latter stages of and really winning it - instead couldn't even muster getting out of the group stages.

Seriously, how many more years are you going to bother writing your long paragraphs of reasons why poor old Spurs are unfortunate and maybe just contemplate it won't happen with this lot in charge?
 
Well of all the excuses I've heard the 'Spurs are too big to have a free hit at a trophy' is certainly original :D Like a fine wine these excuses are getting better and better.

And this season is as much of a free hit as we have ever had, the league has been a write off for months so let's hope we win the Europa at least. We were in the Conference league which with our squad should have comfortably been getting to the latter stages of and really winning it - instead couldn't even muster getting out of the group stages.

Seriously, how many more years are you going to bother writing your long paragraphs of reasons why poor old Spurs are unfortunate and maybe just contemplate it won't happen with this lot in charge?

There is definitely something to "all the big clubs turn up against us because we are a big name" and "the small clubs always turn up against us because we are soft".
 
Well of all the excuses I've heard the 'Spurs are too big to have a free hit at a trophy' is certainly original :D Like a fine wine these excuses are getting better and better.

And this season is as much of a free hit as we have ever had, the league has been a write off for months so let's hope we win the Europa at least. We were in the Conference league which with our squad should have comfortably been getting to the latter stages of and really winning it - instead couldn't even muster getting out of the group stages.

Seriously, how many more years are you going to bother writing your long paragraphs of reasons why poor old Spurs are unfortunate and maybe just contemplate it won't happen with this lot in charge?

Seriously why don't you engage like an adult? someone posted an article, I responded with an opinion, your fudging enlightened response is to go after me?
 
There is a real conversation there I've hinted at before

- Spurs is too big to ever have a free hit at a trophy, e.g. a Leicester/Wigan/Birmingham/etc. we will never be able to approach a SF/Final with a purely "nothing too lose approach" Extraordinary pressure to get the trophy monkey off the back.
- Spurs is too small for players to have the expectation/belief that comes with being an elite club (Madrid players expect they will win)
- We are relevant enough to be hated, there is a reason beyond Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, others, even brick clubs like Leicester don't like us, we are a legitimate threat to the status quo (if we ever make do on that threat is a separate conversation). And you see that played down with "when will Spurs be regular challengers", we have fudging been for 15+ years, and never given credit.

And as all Spurs social media can attest, nobody buys the narrative like a Spurs fan, nobody is more willing to accept any derogatory statement against the club, ownership, "right kind of fans" than ourselves.
Sorry what have we been challenging for the last 15 years? Top 4? Low standards again. Getting it the first time, even the 2nd was an achievement at this point who cares if we aren't actually challenging for it or winning it. We strive to qualify for the CL for what purpose exactly? Just to be there or more realistically for the financial benefits.
 
Nuance

- Leicester is a fluke and a case of flying too close to the sun. Relegated twice now with impending points deduction in Championship waiting. Never able to translate that on field success to financial growth. This is exactly the conversation to have, would you trade two trophies for years in the Championship and potential long term future of the club? and if you would, do you really care about the club or is it a flex for you?

- United (in a financial league of their own compared to anyone) & Liverpool are the biggest clubs in UK by some distance, when United inevitably gets back to a challenging position are we going to take about the league finishes above them and why didn't we make it count?

- Arsenal winning the CL would be an extraordinary accomplishment for them, doubly so as European success is the thing they have never achieved. No question the season would be a success, but they have failed in the league and now are in the same position as us, win a cup and it's a good season, lose it and real questions and change possibly to follow.

To your last point I completely disagree, the amount of if we were just run like Leicester, Forest, Brighton, Wolves, whoever the fudge the flavor of the season is I hear on this board, only for that club not to get mentioned again once the revert to mean inevitably happens.


City, Chelsea, Liverpool are the success stories of the last decade, and two of those have done it by money doping ..
You know the flip side to reverting to then mean? It means you've actually achieved something in the first place to fall back to your earlier position. We haven't even achieved anything so we can't revert to mean. 😅
 
Sorry what have we been challenging for the last 15 years? Top 4? Low standards again. Getting it the first time, even the 2nd was an achievement at this point who cares if we aren't actually challenging for it or winning it. We strive to qualify for the CL for what purpose exactly? Just to be there or more realistically for the financial benefits.

Low standards?

How many pro clubs are there in football, how many of them have had consistent CL participation.

We are in the elite of the industry.
 
Low standards?

How many pro clubs are there in football, how many of them have had consistent CL participation.

We are in the elite of the industry.
I'm not interested in participation badges. If you're not seriously competing or at the very attempting to you might as well not be in it.
 
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