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ENIC

Re: Daniel Levy isn't stupid...

Touched on this in another thread regarding Lamela, but this is probably a better place for it. Basically Levy needs to stop undermining managers and realise that when he doesn't agree on footballing matters it's more likely that the guy with x amount of coaching badges that works with the players everyday is right than he is.

Do you feel Levy has more say and is more meddling in team matters/selection relative to other chairmen in the PL? Thats an honest question, because I don't really know either way.

And, to whatever extent it is, would you say Poch was aware of it when he chose to quit Soton and come here?
 
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Re: Daniel Levy isn't stupid...

Do you feel Levy has more say and is more meddling in team matters/selection relative to other chairmen in the PL? Thats an honest question, because I don't really know either way.

I don't really know either to be honest. But I do know that there seems to be a pattern of employ new manager, come out and say that manager will get time, will move us forward, going gets tough or there is some sort of disagreement, sack manager.

To me that suggests that when the going gets tough, Levy easily goes back on his 'this guy is the man who will move us forward' and goes with his own opinion. For example 'AVBs team isn't scoring many goals, he should put Adebayor back into the team even though he's made it clear to me that he has no respect and doesn't want to play him' or 'he should play 2 up-front even though I employed him based on his detailed analysis of our club and his justification that 4231 is the formation we should play'

Other times he has fall outs with managers over other issues, which I believe is fair enough.
 
Re: Daniel Levy isn't stupid...

Thinking about it further, I don't think he actually meddles with the team at all until things start to go badly. Which probably isn't that difference than most chairmen.

But at some point he has to stick with someone through the tough times in the belief that what he seen in them in the first place will be justified even if their opinions differ.
 
Re: Daniel Levy isn't stupid...

From the first article I linked;

"The conversation turned to whether Spurs could employ two strikers," writes Jason Burt. "Villas-Boas interpreted this as a suggestion that he should play Emmanuel Adebayor who he wanted out of the club, who had been a source of friction and who has been a crushing disappointment, despite being the highest earner. The conversation was not constructive."

Same thing is in one of the others (can't remember off top of my head which one though).

As I said though, whether his reasons for sacking AVB were right or wrong is not the point I'm trying to make. My point is that at some point he is going to have to take the risk that the manager he had employed is right and he is wrong. No matter what the disagreement is (as long as it is about footballing matters)

Sorry, my bad, I missed that.
 
Re: Daniel Levy isn't stupid...

Also, praising our owners for doing 'something' instead of sitting still and profiting anyway isn't a great argument, imo. They made some good decisions. They made some bad decisions. As long as their only interest remains maximising the profit on their investment, they will have no real shield against criticism being levelled against them for the way they run this club and the way they extort money from the fans without any concurrent commitment on their part, relying entirely on the fans to keep their investment profitable.

You misread my post if you thought I was praising them for investing in a rising market. It was just a statement of the facts as I see them with little or none of my opinion.

If you are interested in my opinion, I see our current ownership as the lesser of evils unless we find someone who is ridiculously wealthy and who wants to spend large chunks of it on us without getting anything back.
 
Re: Daniel Levy isn't stupid...

? As far as I'm aware, they've also taken dividends out of the club that apparently comfortably cover a lot of whatever they put in. Where is this mighty infusion of fresh capital?

I could well be wrong but I only recall the club paying out dividends once in recent history. What is your recollection? How much do you think ENIC have taken out in dividends and when?
 
Re: Daniel Levy isn't stupid...

What a binary choice. Are we predestined to forever alternate between Sugar-types and ENIC-types? Plain incompetence or a rigid determination to put absolutely no money into the club while hoping to make a massive profit solely off the backs of the fans who are charged insanely high amounts of money only to see precious little in return?

I repeat: if Poch goes, after all the promises of ambition and backing for a long-term project, I would rather see ENIC go than watch another manager come in and get precious few of the players he wants, be told who to play by the chairman, have his best players sold out from under him and get third-rate replacements, all while being unfairly criticized by the long-suffering fans who for some reason still don't see the problem with being asked to pay out of their noses just to watch ENIC eventually sell us off for a massive profit with zero investment or input into the club on their part.

And raising the f*cking Sugar boogeyman won't change that view, since it's been used to scare the fans into submission time and again (along with the 'doing a Leeds' scenario whenever the fans start hesitantly questioning the way the club's run, and why they're paying the second-highest prices in the league to watch what they're watching now).

The only two good things ENIC seem to be capable of doing for us now is giving the manager time and getting the stadium built (entirely funded by the fans and commercial partners, of course, but that's for another day). If they don't succeed in even those two fairly straightforward things, there is absolutely no reason why they should stay around when their removal would have zero effect on the financial viability of this club anyway, seeing as they were never invested in it to begin with.

Other than the £66m that they have put into the club, you mean?
 
Re: Daniel Levy isn't stupid...

If Poch goes, I hope that discontent won't be far behind.

You've mentioned the possibility of Poch going a few times.

But I've seen no suggestion that that is on the cards. Nor even the barest hint of it.

It's as if you're conjuring up the scenario in order to be able to work yourself up to a good old rant.
 
Re: Daniel Levy isn't stupid...

? As far as I'm aware, they've also taken dividends out of the club that apparently comfortably cover a lot of whatever they put in. Where is this mighty infusion of fresh capital?

Also, praising our owners for doing 'something' instead of sitting still and profiting anyway isn't a great argument, imo. They made some good decisions. They made some bad decisions. As long as their only interest remains maximising the profit on their investment, they will have no real shield against criticism being levelled against them for the way they run this club and the way they extort money from the fans without any concurrent commitment on their part, relying entirely on the fans to keep their investment profitable.

Regarding manager's, I've already mentioned that the fans wrongly call for the manager's head too often and that this offers Levy an easy way out of having to deal with fan discontent aimed at the boardroom. It is a fault we have, and they've take advantage of it. I want that to change ,however. And as for the DoF, 'clubs our size' or bigger? Say it like it's supposed to be said: clubs with more money than we do have a DoF. With our zero external investment, we cannot afford to ignore the manager's targets in favour of signing third-choice (or sometimes evidently not even the manager's choice) 'value' players and expect him to fit them neatly into his system, which is what our DoFs do on a regular basis. There is dysfunction there, and our managers have been sacked for lesser offenses than the transfer windows the likes of Comolli and Baldini have overseen. And yet Comolli remained in his position until finally forced out by a manager who gave Levy an ultimatum: it was either the DoF or him. Baldini shows no signs of being under pressure from the board. If they don't aid the manager in doing his supposedly 'too large' job, then what are they still in place for if not to deflect blame?

I'm not saying all DoFs are conduits for fan anger as opposed to useful people to have. Ours, however, have question marks hovering over them.

Tosh and nonsense, mate.

During the ENIC's time at the helm, I believe that the club has only once or twice paid out a dividend. And, if memory serves, the total earned by ENIC from that source amounted to something between £2-4m.

As to the "mighty infusion of fresh capital" that you query, ENIC contributed £11 million to the January 2004 rights issue; £15m to the 2009 share placement; and a £40m interest free loan earlier this year which will be converted into equity.
 
Re: Daniel Levy isn't stupid...

You've mentioned the possibility of Poch going a few times.

But I've seen no suggestion that that is on the cards. Nor even the barest hint of it.

It's as if you're conjuring up the scenario in order to be able to work yourself up to a good old rant.

As mentioned before, the signal fault we have as fans is blaming the manager for bad results when it is abundantly clear that said manager has had the rug pulled out from under him in terms of getting the players he wanted/asking for in the transfer window, which by extension means bad results as the team struggles to adapt to the second and third choice players trying to fit into a system that was envisioned with someone else in mind. Now, I see people across the spurs-related internet already whispering about Poch and his suitability for our club: if this erupts into anger on par with the anger around the fanbase last December, it will provide Levy with an easy excuse to pull the trigger.

If that happens, and given that I really don't hold Poch accountable for our results after the transfer window he had, what would you expect me to do? Grin and clap for Levy once again? And don't say you don't see Poch being sacked as possible: AVB made a better start than Poch did, and he stormed out after Levy either 'suggested' or demanded that he play Ade/ two strikers, and after building discontent behind the scenes that only came out after he left (all that stuff about the players he received not being the ones he wanted, and Jason Burt's insinuations of a breakdown in his relationship with Levy). There is little by way of faith one can place either in our fanbase (who rush to dissatisfaction with our managers far too easily at times, me included) or in Levy's backing of his managers through these stormy spells given the evident advantages of just sacking him and calming the fans down.


Tosh and nonsense, mate.

During the ENIC's time at the helm, I believe that the club has only once or twice paid out a dividend. And, if memory serves, the total earned by ENIC from that source amounted to something between £2-4m.

As to the "mighty infusion of fresh capital" that you query, ENIC contributed £11 million to the January 2004 rights issue; £15m to the 2009 share placement; and a £40m interest free loan earlier this year which will be converted into equity.

You are the expert on these figures, so I'll defer to you on their reliability. I had imagined the dividend payouts to be far higher, although the amount they'd put into the club prior to this year (26 million quid over the thirteen-odd years they'd spent running this club before 2014) didn't really surprise me given that I don't remember any massive infusion ever being reported. I was also unaware of their 40 million pound loan earlier this year, although you'll forgive me for waiting to see if it will actually be converted to share capital.

I retract my statement about ENIC not providing any money to the club, and will consider my position with regards to their financial infusions into this club. I'll leave the implications of their generous funding for others to pick over for now, but will also point to this http://transferleague.co.uk/league-tables/transfer-league-table-last-five-seasons.html as a potentially interesting factor for discussion amid all the talk of ambition and backing that revolved around Poch's appointment in the summer.
 
Re: Daniel Levy isn't stupid...

For chairmen, the DoF's, technical directors and the like are a useful buffer zone between poor performance and copping abuse for that poor performance. Too much more poor performance and Baldini will be gone I predict. Poch will be next in the line of fire. Levy has to be careful though. If he loses key staff too frequently there will be problems recruiting people of the right calibre in the future.

And he cares about that?

The DoF is his Teflon coating, the coaches are the sacrifices he makes to the gods.

In the meantime the Spurs fans are duped.
 
Re: Daniel Levy isn't stupid...

And he cares about that?

The DoF is his Teflon coating, the coaches are the sacrifices he makes to the gods.

In the meantime the Spurs fans are duped.

This DoF conspiracy really is one of the most absurd things ive heard over the years.
 
Re: Daniel Levy isn't stupid...

Tosh and nonsense, mate.

During the ENIC's time at the helm, I believe that the club has only once or twice paid out a dividend. And, if memory serves, the total earned by ENIC from that source amounted to something between £2-4m.

As to the "mighty infusion of fresh capital" that you query, ENIC contributed £11 million to the January 2004 rights issue; £15m to the 2009 share placement; and a £40m interest free loan earlier this year which will be converted into equity.

I am with you here mate - however I think I do remember a period where the club were buying back shares on the open market and cancelling them (i.e. using the club's money to strengthen the share price and, hence, the value of their majority holding). I might be wrong on this and it could in fact have been Sugar doing this, but for some reason I think it was under ENIC. It is not uncommon for companies to do this (especially when they feel that their share price is artificially weak and therefore represents value). However I do question the ethics of this approach when there are parties owning a high proportion of the equity.

Additionally the rights issues that ENIC underwrote also allowed them to increase their holding in the club while diluting their overall purchase price.

While I have no problem at all with ENIC and Levy they have gained just as much out of THFC (if not more) than THFC have gained out of them.
 
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Re: Daniel Levy isn't stupid...

This DoF conspiracy really is one of the most absurd things ive heard over the years.

I'm not sure it is conspiracy theory. At least not as general principle, as opposed to this specific example. More like standard management practice. Stuff always goes wrong from time to time - you can't sack yourself every time. So simply as matter of self-preservation it makes sense to have few layers between yourself and trouble. And, if pressed you can always validate it on the basis of it freeing you up to concentrate on the business, while letting the football experts focus on the football (but still allowing to have your say if you think necessary). It's no more conspiracy theory than the practice of kitchen-sinking, which if they have got any sense new managers should do in a football context when they arrive -and no doubt some do.

Although If I were an owner I'd like the DoF/technical director to be a bit more visible - get him in the press a bit, do a bit of PR on him in the Sunday papers, nice big pictures - if only so the fans were more likely to direct their vile abuse at him rather than me.
 
Daniel Levy isn't stupid...

That's just a natural occurance - the idea that that is why we have a DoF is what is absurd.

Commoli was sacked and Baldini has had two summer transfer windows - it's as though people just get an idea in their head about something and twist everything to suit their agenda - One minute Levys a ruthless trigger happy ogre and the next he's happy to keep someone on the payroll and in a position of power despite (supposedly) doing a **** job - why on earth would he do that ffs :lol:

it's clear as day that Levy wants someone in a role to link managment with the board and bring a semblence of continuity and forward planning - a football man who is better at those things than he, it really is as simple as that
 
Re: Daniel Levy isn't stupid...

As mentioned before, the signal fault we have as fans is blaming the manager for bad results when it is abundantly clear that said manager has had the rug pulled out from under him in terms of getting the players he wanted/asking for in the transfer window, which by extension means bad results as the team struggles to adapt to the second and third choice players trying to fit into a system that was envisioned with someone else in mind. Now, I see people across the spurs-related internet already whispering about Poch and his suitability for our club: if this erupts into anger on par with the anger around the fanbase last December, it will provide Levy with an easy excuse to pull the trigger.

In what way did Poch "have the rug pulled from under him" during the transfer window? We failed to land Schneiderlin because Southampton refused to sell. And we failed to land Musacchio because Villarreal, as a consequence of third party complications, refused to sell unless we met his full buyout value of €50m (clearly far too much). In their stead, we signed two players who were also very much Poch signings, according to reports - Stambouli and Fazio. So there wasn't much else Levy could have done and Poch has no cause for complaint. Nor has there been any indication that he is unhappy with our transfer business.

We should also remember that Poch was very explicit in stressing that he wanted to get to know the players before making any major moves in the transfer market. And this pre season wasn't ideal in that respect because of the late return of many players after the World Cup. It's only now that Poch can have a good idea of which players he wants to keep and which he wants to shed.

If that happens, and given that I really don't hold Poch accountable for our results after the transfer window he had, what would you expect me to do? Grin and clap for Levy once again? And don't say you don't see Poch being sacked as possible: AVB made a better start than Poch did, and he stormed out after Levy either 'suggested' or demanded that he play Ade/ two strikers, and after building discontent behind the scenes that only came out after he left (all that stuff about the players he received not being the ones he wanted, and Jason Burt's insinuations of a breakdown in his relationship with Levy). There is little by way of faith one can place either in our fanbase (who rush to dissatisfaction with our managers far too easily at times, me included) or in Levy's backing of his managers through these stormy spells given the evident advantages of just sacking him and calming the fans down.

Of course it is possible that he could be sacked but I see no danger of it happening unless Poch completely loses the dressing room and has us in danger of relegation. Levy has never sacked a manager in his first season at Spurs.

As to the Jason Burt report about why AVB left, I think we have to take it with a large pinch of salt. Burt was, effectively, AVB's mouthpiece in the press. So it was hardly impartial. Personally, I'd give equal weight to the stories about AVB identifying a list of first choice targets - who were either unrealistically expensive or also targeted by bigger, richer clubs than us - and then being wholly inflexible when it came to suggesting alternatives.

You are the expert on these figures, so I'll defer to you on their reliability. I had imagined the dividend payouts to be far higher, although the amount they'd put into the club prior to this year (26 million quid over the thirteen-odd years they'd spent running this club before 2014) didn't really surprise me given that I don't remember any massive infusion ever being reported. I was also unaware of their 40 million pound loan earlier this year, although you'll forgive me for waiting to see if it will actually be converted to share capital.

I retract my statement about ENIC not providing any money to the club, and will consider my position with regards to their financial infusions into this club. I'll leave the implications of their generous funding for others to pick over for now, but will also point to this http://transferleague.co.uk/league-tables/transfer-league-table-last-five-seasons.html as a potentially interesting factor for discussion amid all the talk of ambition and backing that revolved around Poch's appointment in the summer.

Net transfer spend is a somewhat overvalued metric, IMO. In our case, it is clearly skewed by the sale of Bale and Modric for a combined £120m - two players, by the way, who we absolutely didn't want to sell.

But what of the five years previous to that table? I seem to remember Spurs routinely being near the very top, with a higher net spend* than all but Chelsea and Man Utd (and possibly not even the latter). And there is a reason for that. In 2004, our squad was nowhere near good enough to be competitive. So we embarked upon a systematic upgrade, season on season. Until the priority changed. We now had the competitive squad. So we had to pay them accordingly. Consequently, our wage bill leapt by 50% - in an instant, wiping out the £20-30m operating profits that had funded our previous annual splash in the transfer market.

In the meanwhile, other than the Champions League spike, our turnover has flatlined for the past four years. Add in to the mix that we have built a £45m training complex that is one of the best in the world, and that we have spent some £100m on acquiring the property for and progressing the plans for the new stadium.........is it really so hard to understand why we might have reined in our transfer spending?

* Bear in mind that, because of accounting practices within football, we would still have been paying for our big net spend from 2004-09 for four or five years beyond 2009.
 
Re: Daniel Levy isn't stupid...

I am with you here mate - however I think I do remember a period where the club were buying back shares on the open market and cancelling them (i.e. using the club's money to strengthen the share price and, hence, the value of their majority holding). I might be wrong on this and it could in fact have been Sugar doing this, but for some reason I think it was under ENIC. It is not uncommon for companies to do this (especially when they feel that their share price is artificially weak and therefore represents value). However I do question the ethics of this approach when there are parties owning a high proportion of the equity.

Additionally the rights issues that ENIC underwrote also allowed them to increase their holding in the club while diluting their overall purchase price.

While I have no problem at all with ENIC and Levy they have gained just as much out of THFC (if not more) than THFC have gained out of them.

You're absolutely right that the club has periodically bought back shares during ENIC's time at the club. But the amounts were fairly insignificant and, if memory serves, it mostly happened when ENIC owned 30-65% of the company, as opposed to the 85% that they now own.

And yes, ENIC gained equity for their investment and thereby increased their shareholding. But you wouldn't expect anything else for a company that is owned by multiple shareholders. If an investor can't increase his shareholding as a consequence of his investment, then there would be no incentive for him to invest. He would effectively just be giving money to the other shareholders. Very different at Chelsea and Emirates Marketing Project, for example, where Abramovich and Mansour already have 100% shareholdings.

I agree that Spurs has been a superb investment for ENIC. If and when they sell, they will make a huge profit. Maybe the relationship has even, as you say, been better for ENIC than it has been for Spurs. But, as a rule, I'd say that it has been a symbiotic relationship: ENIC want to make a big profit if and when they sell Spurs but they can only do so if Spurs is a successful football club.
 
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