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ENIC
- Thread starter mattls
- Start date
Craig_J
Mido
It doesnât have to be regime change so long as the money is used appropriately in a way which ultimately leads to us spending more
I agree putting it towards paying off stadium debts would be the most sensible use.
So long as that ultimately leads to us spending more.
The last few years we are one of the biggest spending teams in europe.
Levy is an idiot and has squandered our money for a quarter of a century. Totally inept football chairman.
We went almost a decade with a zero net spend and went from a mid table club to champions league regulars. Players like bale, Modric, walker...
We just spent a huge money on the stadium.
We did waste money. But every club has.
You might not like him. But try and not let your bias rewrite history.
Bedfordspurs
Vinnie Samways
Come on man you been smacking the guano
The key word is we. He spent our money. More often than not he wasted it too. I'm pretty sanguine about it these days. But I do like to point out that he is an inept football chairman. Trophy wise he has taken us to the worst record in our existence under his tenure. That's just counting. I have no opinion on his personality. I have never met the guy. All I can do his judge him on what he has done as chairman of Tottenham Hotspur football club. And that is historically bad.
DeanoAustin
Jimmy McCormick
Or historically good depending on what way you look at it.
glorygloryeze
Jack Jull
Historically good in terms of steady upper-level table finishes and growth in value of club off the pitch.
Historically bad in terms of trophies (2010-2019 was first decade since the war we haven't won at least one trophy; that record imo was why we are/were? a big club..)
Trophy return has been poor. Nobody would argue with that. I'd like to see his win rate compared to other chairmen at Spurs though. Guessing it would be the best. We've got to finals and semi finals. Have one our best league finish records in our history on average. Competing against oil clubs.
I'd like new owners. Said so numerous times. But levy isn't anywhere near as bad as you make out.
No, and not even arguing success here, this is your (and other's) utter failure to understand business
- 23+ years of profit (Levy & ENIC's money) re-invested into the club (no dividends taken)
- His money, not yours (or mine), you don't argue how the CEO of Starbucks or McDonald's spends money as your money because you bought a coffee/burger
- If you are bothered to do the work (I'm too fudging lazy for a conversation that has been done to death), it will be over a billion of "their" money invested into club (funny how that narrative doesn't look the same)
- In that time, Tottenham's facilities, global brand, income, players have all improved drastically in a way no other club in the league that wasn't supported by a nation state has
Historically bad? another statement that is at best stretching
- 17 Major honors in 142 years, that's Spurs amazing output ..
- If (yes, big IF), Spurs won two trophies in next 5 years, we would be right back on track with "history"
- For what it's worth, this is the best league sequence and European participation sequence in our history (so historically good?)
- Yes, conversion of 2nd/3rd place, QF, SF & Final appearance to a wins has been poor (that should be a conversation, but is a separate thing)
Said it too many times
- Levy/ENIC have done arguably as good as anyone else in club football in the total time period staying within a financially viable model (as example, Chelsea lost 1M/week for 13 years under RA leadership, that's what we competed against). And if you disagree, show me the 2 or 3 clubs that have done better (i.e. improved their position more in the same timeline and kept it there) without money doping/sportswashing
Now if that isn't enough for you, and you want a Middle East/Oligarch/insert dubious source of money here type of investment to just come in and throw money at the problem until eventually we win more stuff, great, you are absolutely entitled to that opinion, but to say Levy/ENIC have done a bad job/wasted money simply doesn't stand up ..
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
While Spurs won a few honours before being a top division club I do think it a trifle unfair to include Spurs' time before they became a top division club when trying to compare relative success.
Since THFC's first promotion to the top division in 1951 until the point that Levy took over in the year 2000 Spurs won 14 major trophies (average rate of 2.9 per decade). In the 24 years since ENIC took over, Spurs have won only a single major trophy, so have a rate of 0.4 trophies per decade.
Your comment about them investing ÂŁ1billion of their own money is also rather strange. Just as a many business owners do, the owners of THFC have reinvested profits generated to increase the value of of the asset. By reinvesting the profits the owners have pumped the asset value and increased their net worth by far more than would've happened if they had instead removed money from the business via dividends.
I think ENIC have been great in terms of increasing the size of the club's turnover and asset valuation, they have arguably been the best in England and perhaps even beyond at doing that. They are probably second only to the Glaziers at Man Utd in terms of the amount they have increased their own net worth via the football club they own.
However, in terms of what success in football really should be valued in, i.e. trophies, I don't think you can argue anything other than that their record is poor. 1 trophy in 24 years for a club who were probably the 4th best supported club in the country at the point they took over is well below expectations for a club of THFC's size.
Fingers crossed that record can be put right over the next decade or so. I'd love us to get back to our 3 trophies per decade average. My sons have never been lucky enough to experience the elation of their team winning a trophy or the excitement of the old open top bus trophy parade down the high road.
K.D.D.D.D.Soc
Ian Walker
Writing as an old fart I would rather see cheaper prices for kids than for oldies, the kids are the future, get 'em hooked early.
You of all people know re-investing profits is re-investing the owners money, and yes, it's smart but lets not pretend everyone does it (see United) and lets not pretend it isn't their money.
Yes, the trophy haul is not good enough (no argument), I do think the context is relevant, both that Spurs has historically underachieved and that our league performances (yes despite not winning it) is the most consistent it has ever been.
In the end ENIC/Levy have done a very good job in some ways, with that one black mark re trophies (and yes it's important piece), the piece that gets me to jump back in (even though I shouldn't anymore) is
- Think people don't understand how much that off the pitch work has protected the future of the club (and that is the most important thing)
- Even with their failures, saying they are the worse/bad owners is just OTT
And yes, I do hope your boys get to see us win something soon
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Yes indeed I do know that. I also know that they are not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts but instead to make themselves richer as a result of asset growth. ENIC have done this because it was the best way for them to become richer.
I'm also always really concerned when somebody has to hold up the Glaziers as a good counter example to use to compare our owners to.
I think we are in a pretty good place to break our trophy drought at some point in the next few years. I just hope that when the opportunity really properly presents itself again we push the boat out and actually go for it. Time will tell.
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No, he spent the club's money. Once you spend your money it's no longer your money.
Wot??? You're only over 40 years out with our first promotion to the top division.
RunTMC
Erik Edman
It does bring up the debate as to what is the objective metric to use to judge the success of a club. Major trophies seem to be that objective measurement. And we all want success right?
So by that measure we were a more successful club in the 90s than we have been in the last decade. However I donât think many of us would want to go back to the relative player quality we had back then. Mediocrity in the dictionary wouldnât be words it would be the spurs logo.
Wigan have also been a more successful club than us in the last decade. Not sure many would want us bouncing around the lower leagues though. The thing about the 90s and noughties is that those trophies were major achievements because our stature meant we werenât expected to win them. Just getting into Europe was a success.
So why are we now expecting to win trophies. Probably because the club has been grown to a size where weâre now expected to dine with the big boys. Yet somehow that growth isnât appreciated and seen as a success story. The irony is that Levy would have been more âsuccessfulâ keeping the club mediocre and achieving Europe against the run of play.
I guess ultimately it comes down to what you want from the club. For me I enjoy the kinship of being a spurs fan, I enjoy having a connection with the players and managers and I enjoy watching entertaining football. Thatâs why I wouldnât swap the Poch years for the Ramos years. The lack of trophies isnât a big frustration for me, particularly in this league environment.
Editing the post: The lack of trophies isnât a huge frustration for me. Iâm in it for the ride and entertainment. Iâm not in favour of oil funding for success
So by that measure we were a more successful club in the 90s than we have been in the last decade. However I donât think many of us would want to go back to the relative player quality we had back then. Mediocrity in the dictionary wouldnât be words it would be the spurs logo.
Wigan have also been a more successful club than us in the last decade. Not sure many would want us bouncing around the lower leagues though. The thing about the 90s and noughties is that those trophies were major achievements because our stature meant we werenât expected to win them. Just getting into Europe was a success.
So why are we now expecting to win trophies. Probably because the club has been grown to a size where weâre now expected to dine with the big boys. Yet somehow that growth isnât appreciated and seen as a success story. The irony is that Levy would have been more âsuccessfulâ keeping the club mediocre and achieving Europe against the run of play.
I guess ultimately it comes down to what you want from the club. For me I enjoy the kinship of being a spurs fan, I enjoy having a connection with the players and managers and I enjoy watching entertaining football. Thatâs why I wouldnât swap the Poch years for the Ramos years. The lack of trophies isnât a big frustration for me, particularly in this league environment.
Editing the post: The lack of trophies isnât a huge frustration for me. Iâm in it for the ride and entertainment. Iâm not in favour of oil funding for success
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Bedfordspurs
Vinnie Samways
The regular drum beat is we pay the highest amount of money for our STs
It is mad that everyone is comparing the modern era to the 50s-90s.
There are so many clubs now who are so much better than every other club due to one or both of PL/CL money (United, Arsenal, Liverpool) and financial doping (City, Chelsea).
You only have to look at the distribution of trophies between clubs over the years to see that they are being shared by a narrower and narrower set of teams. Money has hugely stratified the league and created a gulf between clubs.
And its only getting worse. A lot of people use Swansea, Wigan, Portsmouth etc. as a stick to beat Levy with. But when is the last time that sort of club won a trophy? Leicester are the only ones. Otherwise you have to go back to Wigan/Swansea in 2013. Every single other trophy has been shared between the 5 clubs mentioned above. Frankly its a miracle that we've even been this close.
The same can obviously be said for us being the only European regular outside the elite: we have also benefited from this stratification of the league. But to get to that point was a miracle from where we were in the 90s, whether we won a League Cup in 1999 or not. We could have easily been left in the doldrums like Everton, Leeds, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Villa.
Now we have comparable income streams to those other 5 clubs, which is a testament to Levy's management. He always said that CL under Poch came earlier than planned. The plan was to build the stadium and use that as a base. We now have that base. We have the stadium/revenue streams, the training ground, and the behind the scenes operation in place. We are finally ready to have a crack at the big boys.
Of course, having had the best team in the country and almost winning several trophies, there is a strong argument to say we should have just said 'fudge it' and invested at the top, like Arsenal are doing now.
The flipside is that the margins are fine and, if it backfired, we could have easily squandered all that good work and slipped down the league. We may well have not been in as strong a position on PSR/squad quality now if we'd been overspending like our rivals.
It remains to be seen what happens to (for example) Arsenal or Villa. It is 'brick or get off the pot' time for both of them with regards to finances. A couple of bad years, the top players leave, and its back down the snake to square 1 on the board. (Albeit Arsenal have very strong revenues to fall back on.) That is the risk they have taken, and one we chose not to take when we didn't sign anyone, didn't back Poch, and let that project go stale.
If you deem that risk to be unacceptable within our finances, as the club did, then you are left with 2 options: unheard of largesse from Lewis, or oil money. Neither of these was ever realistic.
I can't be sure whether that under-investment was the right approach or not, but we are in a strong position now to build from. We can (and have) invested in the squad and are making real progress on the pitch.
As is abundantly clear from this post, more money from Qatari investment would have course help. But changing the leadership who have delivered such success in such an unprecedented climate is complete lunacy IMO - regardless of their risk appetite in the Poch years.
Even if it was uncalled for, we are now in a position where the same risk appetite will yield much more investment. If we can get even more investment from selling off a bit of the club, great, but for me it can't mean getting rid of Levy. He built this club to where it is now, including laying the foundations of a footballing operation that is designed to take us to the next level.
In any case, he's staying. He wants to win the league with us and I don't expect him to quit until we do. Of course he has made mistakes but it is a punishing environment and overall I wouldn't want anyone else at the helm. His dedication and knowledge of the club are second to none and, in the long run, he has always managed to reach new heights. He is here to stay and for me has earned my backing over the past 20+ years.
I am hugely proud of what the club has done over my lifetime with all of the odds stacked against us. We have managed to muscle in on one of the most competitive and - frankly - rigged cartels in world sport.
I really do think that we are approaching a period of real promise for this club and I wish everyone would just quit moaning and get behind the fudging boys.
COYS
There are so many clubs now who are so much better than every other club due to one or both of PL/CL money (United, Arsenal, Liverpool) and financial doping (City, Chelsea).
You only have to look at the distribution of trophies between clubs over the years to see that they are being shared by a narrower and narrower set of teams. Money has hugely stratified the league and created a gulf between clubs.
And its only getting worse. A lot of people use Swansea, Wigan, Portsmouth etc. as a stick to beat Levy with. But when is the last time that sort of club won a trophy? Leicester are the only ones. Otherwise you have to go back to Wigan/Swansea in 2013. Every single other trophy has been shared between the 5 clubs mentioned above. Frankly its a miracle that we've even been this close.
The same can obviously be said for us being the only European regular outside the elite: we have also benefited from this stratification of the league. But to get to that point was a miracle from where we were in the 90s, whether we won a League Cup in 1999 or not. We could have easily been left in the doldrums like Everton, Leeds, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Villa.
Now we have comparable income streams to those other 5 clubs, which is a testament to Levy's management. He always said that CL under Poch came earlier than planned. The plan was to build the stadium and use that as a base. We now have that base. We have the stadium/revenue streams, the training ground, and the behind the scenes operation in place. We are finally ready to have a crack at the big boys.
Of course, having had the best team in the country and almost winning several trophies, there is a strong argument to say we should have just said 'fudge it' and invested at the top, like Arsenal are doing now.
The flipside is that the margins are fine and, if it backfired, we could have easily squandered all that good work and slipped down the league. We may well have not been in as strong a position on PSR/squad quality now if we'd been overspending like our rivals.
It remains to be seen what happens to (for example) Arsenal or Villa. It is 'brick or get off the pot' time for both of them with regards to finances. A couple of bad years, the top players leave, and its back down the snake to square 1 on the board. (Albeit Arsenal have very strong revenues to fall back on.) That is the risk they have taken, and one we chose not to take when we didn't sign anyone, didn't back Poch, and let that project go stale.
If you deem that risk to be unacceptable within our finances, as the club did, then you are left with 2 options: unheard of largesse from Lewis, or oil money. Neither of these was ever realistic.
I can't be sure whether that under-investment was the right approach or not, but we are in a strong position now to build from. We can (and have) invested in the squad and are making real progress on the pitch.
As is abundantly clear from this post, more money from Qatari investment would have course help. But changing the leadership who have delivered such success in such an unprecedented climate is complete lunacy IMO - regardless of their risk appetite in the Poch years.
Even if it was uncalled for, we are now in a position where the same risk appetite will yield much more investment. If we can get even more investment from selling off a bit of the club, great, but for me it can't mean getting rid of Levy. He built this club to where it is now, including laying the foundations of a footballing operation that is designed to take us to the next level.
In any case, he's staying. He wants to win the league with us and I don't expect him to quit until we do. Of course he has made mistakes but it is a punishing environment and overall I wouldn't want anyone else at the helm. His dedication and knowledge of the club are second to none and, in the long run, he has always managed to reach new heights. He is here to stay and for me has earned my backing over the past 20+ years.
I am hugely proud of what the club has done over my lifetime with all of the odds stacked against us. We have managed to muscle in on one of the most competitive and - frankly - rigged cartels in world sport.
I really do think that we are approaching a period of real promise for this club and I wish everyone would just quit moaning and get behind the fudging boys.
COYS