ENIC

[braineclipse]

There is something around Spurs ..

- West Ham gets a free stadium, manages one run to 6th (their first in 19 or so years) -> great job, well run, must be praised
- Spurs in top six, 12 out of the last 13 years having paid for their own stadium -> brick, where's the trophies?
- The whole the last decade is the only decade Spurs hasn't won a trophy again is a narrative to create a perspective that Spurs ever won trophies in the volume of an elite club. Our best decade ever was 5 trophies, we have less than 20 in 140 years. SAF, Pep, Jose all have more trophies in their career than Spurs has as a club.

I get 1 trophy in the last two decades is poor, is a disappointment and yes, we all want more. But this pretense that (ignoring all the caveats in that time, City/Chelsea/Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Covid, stadium build) it's an absolute disaster and the club management has done so badly (again, as vs. who? the only consistently not cheat code club that has seen success in last decade is Pool) is just such an odd narrative.

Spot on.

Where do you think this narrative comes from? It's in the media, but is it media driven?

A lot of Spurs fans seem to think that finishing 5th or 6th with no trophies is completely unacceptable. If that happens twice in a row the manager/Levy/ENIC must go. Crisis mode. Similar reactions from fan groups at times.

 

[Raziel]

Spot on.

Where do you think this narrative comes from? It's in the media, but is it media driven?

A lot of Spurs fans seem to think that finishing 5th or 6th with no trophies is completely unacceptable. If that happens twice in a row the manager/Levy/ENIC must go. Crisis mode. Similar reactions from fan groups at times.

It's an easy narrative (too much of the media are no longer journalists, so they just run with the "accepted"), people don't like nuance, there is a bit of antisemitism in it (our cheapskate, money hording, evil chairman just happens to be?), Sky/BT/FA have literally invested in other brands being their poster boys (how dare we challenge them) and basically it's the last stick left to beat is with, it's literally the last "failure" (I have no doubt if we win the league cup, it will be "oh, but that isn't a real trophy"), and other fans (like Arsenal who went from being title challengers every year to being below us for 6 years in a row) latched on to it, and our fans buy it all day long.

 

[Jurgen the German]

There is something around Spurs ..

- West Ham gets a free stadium, manages one run to 6th (their first in 19 or so years) -> great job, well run, must be praised
- Spurs in top six, 12 out of the last 13 years having paid for their own stadium -> brick, where's the trophies?
- The whole the last decade is the only decade Spurs hasn't won a trophy again is a narrative to create a perspective that Spurs ever won trophies in the volume of an elite club. Our best decade ever was 5 trophies, we have less than 20 in 140 years. SAF, Pep, Jose all have more trophies in their career than Spurs has as a club.

I get 1 trophy in the last two decades is poor, is a disappointment and yes, we all want more. But this pretense that (ignoring all the caveats in that time, City/Chelsea/Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Covid, stadium build) it's an absolute disaster and the club management has done so badly (again, as vs. who? the only consistently not cheat code club that has seen success in last decade is Pool) is just such an odd narrative.

Trophies are the true measure and currency of success. We look back fondly at previous golden years like 1961, 1981, 1984 and 1991 primarily because we got over the line and have silverware to show for it. I don’t think many Spurs fans celebrate 1987 as for the year we “nearly” won the league, lost in the FA cup final to Coventry and lost in the league cup semi final to Arsenal. We could have won 3 trophies in that season but ended up empty handed.

I keep coming back to my point about ENIC being in charge for over 20 years and people wanting a change. If they had been in charge for 5 years then you’d be entitled to call people impatient. But surely you can recognise that 20 years is a long time and to ask people for another 5-10 years or just wait indefinitely isn’t something that some fans find acceptable anymore? I ask again, how long would you propose people wait before deciding enough is enough when it comes to ENIC?

 

[Jurgen the German]

It's an easy narrative (too much of the media are no longer journalists, so they just run with the "accepted"), people don't like nuance, there is a bit of antisemitism in it (our cheapskate, money hording, evil chairman just happens to be?), Sky/BT/FA have literally invested in other brands being their poster boys (how dare we challenge them) and basically it's the last stick left to beat is with, it's literally the last "failure" (I have no doubt if we win the league cup, it will be "oh, but that isn't a real trophy"), and other fans (like Arsenal who went from being title challengers every year to being below us for 6 years in a row) latched on to it, and our fans buy it all day long.

Possibly but it’s something we will have to live with until we get that first trophy under our belts. Hopefully it will be the springboard to many more. Trophies have always been the ultimate barometer of success. People wouldn’t say Messi is the GOAT if he hadn’t won anything in his career.

 

[Raziel]

Possibly but it’s something we will have to live with until we get that first trophy under our belts. Hopefully it will be the springboard to many more. Trophies have always been the ultimate barometer of success. People wouldn’t say Messi is the GOAT if he hadn’t won anything in his career.

Messi interestingly a good example, there was a significant portion of people who have held on to Argentina not winning the world cup as a measure of why he's wasn't the goat? really if Argentina had lost a penalty shootout, that's it, somehow he is a different player?

 

[Raziel]

Trophies are the true measure and currency of success. We look back fondly at previous golden years like 1961, 1981, 1984 and 1991 primarily because we got over the line and have silverware to show for it. I don’t think many Spurs fans celebrate 1987 as for the year we “nearly” won the league, lost in the FA cup final to Coventry and lost in the league cup semi final to Arsenal. We could have won 3 trophies in that season but ended up empty handed.

I keep coming back to my point about ENIC being in charge for over 20 years and people wanting a change. If they had been in charge for 5 years then you’d be entitled to call people impatient. But surely you can recognise that 20 years is a long time and to ask people for another 5-10 years or just wait indefinitely isn’t something that some fans find acceptable anymore? I ask again, how long would you propose people wait before deciding enough is enough when it comes to ENIC?

Wanting a change isn't the issue, if people feel/want a change, want more, your entitled to.

It's the manufacturing flimflam, it's the "this is the end of Spurs" narrative, it's the creating a disaster (out of a 5th place) so that you can convince people of your point of view.

 

[DubaiSpur]

The difference being, if you ask a long list of other teams supporters 'what Tottenham fans are moaning about' they would give you a blank look. Then tell them what they're moaning about and they'd laugh.

Of course, we look at these things thru the goldfish bowl lense of THFC. But occasionally it nice to stick your head above the surface and just gain some perspective of where you are in the world.

True, and that speaks to the unique difficulty of who we are as a club. If we were Morecambe or Sclamhorpe or Bristol or Wrexham, playing in the CL in a new megadome would be seen as the glory days, even if we never won a single thing.

We, however, are Tottenham Hotspur, who were *good* once - a club that used to win things, revolutionized the game, and set records and firsts for football in Britain (from first double of the 20th century to first European trophy winners).

We weren't the very biggest, but we were significant enough to be considered part of English football's grand old clubs.

From that position, it gets a lot harder to assess ENIC's long reign as anything other than frustratingly slow progress at best. More so when clubs like Chelsea, City and now Saudi Sportswashing Machine zoom past us, win things, bring joy to their fans and are no worse off for it, while Birmingham, Leicester, Swansea and Wigan have won things since we last lifted a pot.

And here we are - the club charges the highest ticket prices in English football (and possibly world football, I dunno) to tread water while others leave us behind, and this has not changed for 20 years - a staggeringly long time, unheard of in the PL era (no club has had the same owners for that long).

So, like I said, harder than it looks, and Spurs fans of the past would understand why unhappiness exists today, imo. Maybe other fans wouldn't, but I have never given a single solitary fudge about them and probably never will.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

True, and that speaks to the unique difficulty of who we are as a club. If we were Morecambe or Sclamhorpe or Bristol or Wrexham, playing in the CL in a new megadome would be seen as the glory days, even if we never won a single thing.

We, however, are Tottenham Hotspur, who were *good* once - a club that used to win things, revolutionized the game, and set records and firsts for football in Britain (from first double of the 20th century to first European trophy winners).

We weren't the very biggest, but we were significant enough to be considered part of English football's grand old clubs.

From that position, it gets a lot harder to assess ENIC's long reign as anything other than frustratingly slow progress at best. More so when clubs like Chelsea, City and now Saudi Sportswashing Machine zoom past us, win things, bring joy to their fans and are no worse off for it, while Birmingham, Leicester, Swansea and Wigan have won things since we last lifted a pot.

And here we are - the club charges the highest ticket prices in English football (and possibly world football, I dunno) to tread water while others leave us behind, and this has not changed for 20 years - a staggeringly long time, unheard of in the PL era (no club has had the same owners for that long).

So, like I said, harder than it looks, and Spurs fans of the past would understand why unhappiness exists today, imo. Maybe other fans wouldn't, but I have never given a single solitary fudge about them and probably never will.

It wasn't from that position it was post Scholar and Sugar.

 

[Lilbaz]

Trophies are the true measure and currency of success. We look back fondly at previous golden years like 1961, 1981, 1984 and 1991 primarily because we got over the line and have silverware to show for it. I don’t think many Spurs fans celebrate 1987 as for the year we “nearly” won the league, lost in the FA cup final to Coventry and lost in the league cup semi final to Arsenal. We could have won 3 trophies in that season but ended up empty handed.

I keep coming back to my point about ENIC being in charge for over 20 years and people wanting a change. If they had been in charge for 5 years then you’d be entitled to call people impatient. But surely you can recognise that 20 years is a long time and to ask people for another 5-10 years or just wait indefinitely isn’t something that some fans find acceptable anymore? I ask again, how long would you propose people wait before deciding enough is enough when it comes to ENIC?

We can want a change. I want a change. It's the hate that is weird.

 

[DubaiSpur]

It wasn't from that position it was post Scholar and Sugar.

True, but irrelevant - the club I fell in love with in 1999 was not the club that had blundered its way through a miserable decade, but a club that had existed for 117 years at that point and had been successful (not enormously so, but respectably so) for about half a century. Same goes for most Spurs fans.

Also, @Raziel's original post was about Spurs fans from 10 years ago - I.e, halfway through 2012-2013. Suspect opinions would already have been different then than they would have been shortly after the ENIC takeover when relief might have been the dominant emotion.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Messi interestingly a good example, there was a significant portion of people who have held on to Argentina not winning the world cup as a measure of why he's wasn't the goat? really if Argentina had lost a penalty shootout, that's it, somehow he is a different player?

In theory I don’t disagree as I do believe achievements (trophies) matter. Especially when making comparisons to former greats like Maradona and Pele who do have a wonderful CV to backup their performances. However, Messi and Ronaldo are outliers. They have both scored a ridiculous amount of goals and have won everything there is to win at club level that I think it’s fine to make an exception for their previous lack of international medals. It’s just impossible to ignore their club achievements.

 

[Lilbaz]

True, but irrelevant - the club I fell in love with in 1999 was not the club that had blundered its way through a miserable decade, but a club that had existed for 117 years at that point and had been successful (not enormously so, but respectably so) for about half a century. Same goes for most Spurs fans.

Also, @Raziel's original post was about Spurs fans from 10 years ago - I.e, halfway through 2012-2013. Suspect opinions would already have been different then than they would have been shortly after the ENIC takeover when relief might have been the dominant emotion.

I didn't choose spurs. My dad got me into them. Was born in 78. So can't really remember berkinshaw. Finishing behind arsenal most years. The 90's. My expectations are probably lower than a lot.

I'd love us to be successful and dominant. But if we're not ok. They're the team i support, whoever the owners are. Whether we win or lose.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Wanting a change isn't the issue, if people feel/want a change, want more, your entitled to.

It's the manufacturing flimflam, it's the "this is the end of Spurs" narrative, it's the creating a disaster (out of a 5th place) so that you can convince people of your point of view.

Football fans are reactionary and get carried away with form. I’m not one to chant “Levy out” at games but I understand why peoples emotions get the better of them. I just think it’s time for a change and am willing to roll the dice to see if new owners can make us more successful. I accept it comes with risks but I’m comfortable with that.

 

[Jurgen the German]

We can want a change. I want a change. It's the hate that is weird.

I don’t hate them at all and deep down I’d bet most people who want a change don’t either. There will always be extremes. ENIC certainly don’t deserve any hate. I don’t think they have intentionally ever made decisions. I just question their decision making from the football side of things at times.

 

[glorygloryeze]

We can want a change. I want a change. It's the hate that is weird.

What is this 'hate' you are referring to?

 

[Lilbaz]

I don’t hate them at all and deep down I’d bet most people who want a change don’t either. There will always be extremes. ENIC certainly don’t deserve any hate. I don’t think they have intentionally ever made decisions. I just question their decision making from the football side of things at times.

We all question their decisions. It's why these forums are so popular.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I didn't choose spurs. My dad got me into them. Was born in 78. So can't really remember berkinshaw. Finishing behind arsenal most years. The 90's. My expectations are probably lower than a lot.

Fair enough mate, and I think a lot of the present crop are probably from your generation as well, in terms of the 90s being their formational decade following us - I have never held it against anyone if they feel cautious due to our struggles of that time.

I was 10 in 1999, when I asked my dad for an England shirt when he was travelling home and he, bless his heart, didn't know anything about football and got me a Spurs kit instead. My formative years were the 2000s, being the only Spurs fan in a 100-km radius filled with Pool, United, Goon and Chelsea fans.

I'd love us to be successful and dominant. But if we're not ok. They're the team i support, whoever the owners are. Whether we win or lose.

Again, more than fair. Qatar raises a few hackles for me because while I crave the investment and chance to actually win things at long last, I can't quite stomach the idea that the Gulf states I abhor on a personal level are the ones in charge of the club I love. I am uncertain on what my reaction would be.

 

[Lilbaz]

What is this 'hate' you are referring to?

Not talking about this thread. But if you haven't heard levy be called a c*** in life or on social media you must live under a rock.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Fair enough mate, and I think a lot of the present crop are probably from your generation as well, in terms of the 90s being their formational decade following us - I have never held it against anyone if they feel cautious due to our struggles of that time.

I was 10 in 1999, when I asked my dad for an England shirt when he was travelling home and he, bless his heart, didn't know anything about football and got me a Spurs kit instead. My formative years were the 2000s, being the only Spurs fan in a 100-km radius filled with Pool, United, Goon and Chelsea fans.

Bleep me, i thought i had it bad going to school in prime Gooner territory and SURROUNDED by Gooners when they REALLY WERE successful

 

[glorygloryeze]

Not talking about this thread. But if you haven't heard levy be called a c*** in life or on social media you must live under a rock.

Pfft, everyone in elite circles gets called a bleep in life or social media. Par for the course, at some point.
At least we're not tracking down his home, his family members home or burgling him as some others might do