Eastleigh

[Danishfurniturelover]

:ross::ross:

Mate those links you posted higher up the websites except for the telegrapgh are all well known as left wing pro europe sites/papers so it would be a bit like me posting a link from the mail(as if i would ever do that) or some similar website. Does not really mean a lot.

I have hada long day but i will read them first thing in the morning.

 

[johnola]

:ross::ross:

They exist, I know plenty.

 

[Hootnow]

Mate those links you posted higher up the websites except for the telegrapgh are all well known as left wing pro europe sites/papers so it would be a bit like me posting a link from the mail(as if i would ever do that) or some similar website. Does not really mean a lot.

I have hada long day but i will read them first thing in the morning.

Without a doubt, one of them is called euromove for gods sake! But as I said, I put them in there to at least encourage some debate. And there are a few policy papers in there.

 

[Papercut]

Why on earth would you support that pile of brick party which ruined this whole country?

EDIT:

Unless you are;
- An immigrant
- Scottish
- a lazy workshy scrounger
- Bob Crow

You'd be amazed how many 'immigrants' are right wing.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Without a doubt, one of them is called euromove for gods sake! But as I said, I put them in there to at least encourage some debate. And there are a few policy papers in there.

Well i could not sleep, im buzzing i have driven 700 miles in 2 days, not got enough energy to read and give proper attention to your links but i honesstly will tomorrow.

I like debate, i think one of the biggest pluses for the EU is so that another war in europe does not happen. I remember reading somewhere that europe it good because it stops the organised crime from sspreading across europe. I would suggest that has failed as we sstill have a fair bit of that in this country.

For me the only plus i can see is that the euro is a lot easier then constantly changing currency when travelling through europe, im old enough to remember how bloody annoying that was. Latvia will get the euro soon official although it is widely used there already.

I think why im against it is the massive cost of the thing, the fact that decesions that the government in this country decide get over ruled by europe is something that hurtss deep inside the spirit of a British person. As for the politicans in this country always being in favour of it, it is their pension if things go wrong here and they can not get a cushy house of lords gig.

To many of our PM's infact all of them since thatcher have been obessed with legacy, whether you hate her or love her she just wanted to make the country better, maybe she did leave some people behind trying to create that vision. But her every move was not hampered by thinking how she would be remembered after she was gone like every PM after her.

Please keep posting though mate because i like to hear the other side, and when milo use to post in this type of threads he changed my mind on a few things. Im an old moody prick but i can be educated, well i can open my eyes to different points of views, probably not educated or i would not have such a hard time doing my tax returns(when i bother to do them )

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

You'd be amazed how many 'immigrants' are right wing.

Always thought the tories missed out in thaat regard. When you consider the indians and their focus on education and how hard they push their children, something we have done with our son. Immigrants and i count a latvian one as my best ever friend and sometimes to tinkle the wife off as my true soul mate, the immigrants i have known who have tried to make a better life for themselves. It fits in with the tory philosophy of working your way out of poverty rather then the labour thing of tax credits.

 

[P.D.]

I shall be voting UKIP next election and so will the other 4 members of my family.

Not a protest vote. I like the leadership and some of the policies above other parties.

Labour and Conservatives (the later being my usual vote) have no defined leadership and are like school children constantly bickering and passing the blame to eachother for their failings.

We need a new face in power and no before you say it, Nick Clegg does not fit the bill. He can't even force his stance against a joint coalition so GHod knows how far he will be willing to bend over for other countries and their policies.

UKIP all the way.

PS I love the way Cameron has promised a refurendum on Europe during the time another party are going to be in power. No forgetting the time before he was elected he promised the same thing. Shows the true side to him, someone willing to say anything to win the people and to get elected but once there fails to deliver the promises he made. Trust Mr Cameron, people never forget.

They don't really have a full policy agenda though. Every time Farage is pressed on things he keeps coming back to the same old points again and again. They don't have enough depth for me.

Tories have too much bickering going on, always squabbles in the papers. Cameron needs to unite them if he wants to win the next election.

They did say that whoever made the cuts that were needed would be out of power for a generation so they aren't doing too badly opinion poll wise at the moment.

 

[Crawley]

They don't really have a full policy agenda though. Every time Farage is pressed on things he keeps coming back to the same old points again and again. They don't have enough depth for me.

Tories have too much bickering going on, always squabbles in the papers. Cameron needs to unite them if he wants to win the next election.

They did say that whoever made the cuts that were needed would be out of power for a generation so they aren't doing too badly opinion poll wise at the moment.

But they do.

They could not get where they are today without it. You just need to delve a little deeper.

In fact, UKIP have one of the best income tax policies out there. One which a number of "other" parties are currently alluding to (that'll be the LibLabCon by the way).

I'm a paid up UKIP member.....but I agree the party need to focus on other issues without turning it round to Europe each time. No argument there.

 

[Gordinho]

Always thought the tories missed out in thaat regard. When you consider the indians and their focus on education and how hard they push their children, something we have done with our son. Immigrants and i count a latvian one as my best ever friend and sometimes to tinkle the wife off as my true soul mate, the immigrants i have known who have tried to make a better life for themselves. It fits in with the tory philosophy of working your way out of poverty rather then the labour thing of tax credits.

Being on your own in another country without a support network leads to a sink or swim attitude from my experience of working with and personally knowing immigrants, swim and swimming well is usually the way it has tended to work out.

 

[Gordinho]

Chich, I'm neither massively for or against Europe, I can see everyone's arguments, I suppose in a sense not being unhappy with the status quo makes me slightly pro, it probably wouldn't break my heart if we left either. What I would ask you is what myself and Hootnow have already asked, why haven't successive governments of all hues taken us out of the EEC/EC? There have to be more pros to it than are publicly acknowledged or we'd have left by now surely?

Perhaps the right wing press who rely on the EC for their banner headlines which often don't stand close scrutiny are misleading the public. It wouldn't be hard to believe that Murdoch and Rothmere with their corrosive influence on British life would manipulate the public to suit their own financial ends.

 

[jts1882]

If we have the referendum tomorrow, will the results be different from results in 5 years time, when the economy might have picked up again and people have forgotten about the EU?

This is the problem with using a 50% plus one referendum on a constitutional matter. The same goes for Scottish independence. If the UK or Scotland votes for exit with a 50.1% vote, it could easily be move favoured by a minority by the time it is implemented. And you can't keep leaving and rejoining. The decision is essentially final for a generation or more.

There needs to be a super-majority or a consistent majority over a number of years.

It also doesn't make the decision more democratic. As most people don't make an informed decision, its strengthens the influence of special interests and their mouthpieces like the Daily Mail.

 

[scaramanga]

This is the problem with using a 50% plus one referendum on a constitutional matter. The same goes for Scottish independence. If the UK or Scotland votes for exit with a 50.1% vote, it could easily be move favoured by a minority by the time it is implemented. And you can't keep leaving and rejoining. The decision is essentially final for a generation or more.

There needs to be a super-majority or a consistent majority over a number of years.

It also doesn't make the decision more democratic. As most people don't make an informed decision, its strengthens the influence of special interests and their mouthpieces like the Daily Mail.

That's why first past the post works. To make major changes you need a pretty big majority.

I'd improve the system with more detailed and accountable manifestos though.

 

[Hootnow]

That's why first past the post works. To make major changes you need a pretty big majority.

I'd improve the system with more detailed and accountable manifestos though.

True to some extent but it also makes some citizens' votes useless.

I live in one of the safest Tory seats in the country (though every couple of years, the BNP or UKIP make a little surge before settling down again). There is absolutely no point in me voting whatsoever. If I vote Tory, all I'm doing is adding to a majority that is already huge and unassailable. If I vote for one of the other 2 main parties, it is a complete waste of a vote and of my time.

Similar to the electoral college system in the US, it creates areas where the importance attached to the votes of the people in that area are many magnitudes greater than the votes of people in other areas. And I am uncomfortable with systems where votes on paper are 1 person, 1 vote but in reality are very different.

 

[Hootnow]

Well i could not sleep, im buzzing i have driven 700 miles in 2 days, not got enough energy to read and give proper attention to your links but i honesstly will tomorrow.

I like debate, i think one of the biggest pluses for the EU is so that another war in europe does not happen. I remember reading somewhere that europe it good because it stops the organised crime from sspreading across europe. I would suggest that has failed as we sstill have a fair bit of that in this country.

For me the only plus i can see is that the euro is a lot easier then constantly changing currency when travelling through europe, im old enough to remember how bloody annoying that was. Latvia will get the euro soon official although it is widely used there already.

I think why im against it is the massive cost of the thing, the fact that decesions that the government in this country decide get over ruled by europe is something that hurtss deep inside the spirit of a British person. As for the politicans in this country always being in favour of it, it is their pension if things go wrong here and they can not get a cushy house of lords gig.

To many of our PM's infact all of them since thatcher have been obessed with legacy, whether you hate her or love her she just wanted to make the country better, maybe she did leave some people behind trying to create that vision. But her every move was not hampered by thinking how she would be remembered after she was gone like every PM after her.

Please keep posting though mate because i like to hear the other side, and when milo use to post in this type of threads he changed my mind on a few things. Im an old moody prick but i can be educated, well i can open my eyes to different points of views, probably not educated or i would not have such a hard time doing my tax returns(when i bother to do them )

Debate is incredibly important. This board has slid to the right over the past few years (probably mirroring the British population as a whole) and this has led to a period where most political discussions on this board are post after post of back patting by posters with the same political views all agreeing on how bad (insert typical annoyance of right wing) is. I've been smashed by Clarky and Cyclone during political discussions on this board, one far to the right of me, one far to the left and I liked it because both times I learned something. The confirmation bias going on here a lot cannot be healthy.

Very true. I remember being a bit shocked that the EU received the nobel peace prize and then thinking that for a continent that has shown itself to be completely incapable of abstaining from repeated destructive wars, often dragging in other areas of the world, the EU has done an excellent job in creating an environment where it is no longer an attractive proposition to go to war. Why invade France again when its much easier to trade? Why go to war with insert some E European country etc etc?

I think the cost of the EU is overstated personally, as is how often the EU over-rides a British political decision. Thatcher also didn't leave the EU. My own personal fear is that most people in the UK are at best ambivalent/ ignorant about both the benefits and detriments of the EU to the UK and in a referendum, will be swayed by the loud voices on both sides. At the moment, the loudest voices are on the right calling for an exit. As I and others have already said, in 5 years time, the loudest voices may be the ones defending our membership. But by then, we're out and its too late. Most votes will not be cast on hard facts and policy (and I am of course not saying that those who want out don't know about the issue, there are a few UKIP supporters on here who clearly do know their stuff). The important thing is for the decision to be made in an environment of knowledge.

Good to hear mate, I don't often have the time anymore to really post in these kinds of threads and a couple of posters tinkle me off but it is always good to be open to listening and debate.

 

[scaramanga]

If I vote for one of the other 2 main parties, it is a complete waste of a vote and of my time.

I agree with you there

 

[Hootnow]

I agree with you there

Cheeky mofo

I actually haven't voted in a while, I don't think any of the 3 parties are worth voting for and I'm not going to waste my time and effort voting for a small party.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Chich, I'm neither massively for or against Europe, I can see everyone's arguments, I suppose in a sense not being unhappy with the status quo makes me slightly pro, it probably wouldn't break my heart if we left either. What I would ask you is what myself and Hootnow have already asked, why haven't successive governments of all hues taken us out of the EEC/EC? There have to be more pros to it than are publicly acknowledged or we'd have left by now surely?

Perhaps the right wing press who rely on the EC for their banner headlines which often don't stand close scrutiny are misleading the public. It wouldn't be hard to believe that Murdoch and Rothmere with their corrosive influence on British life would manipulate the public to suit their own financial ends.

I believe in europe but i have the same vision as the Danes and the Swiss. The EU is the only thing that the tories get anywhere near right. But for me it will always be UKIP.

Gordi what did you think when Ireland voted against the treaty and the politicans over there forced it through anyway? my irish lot were pretty angry. I have been telling them for years that they may hate the english but everything that they thought was wrong in northern ireland is happening but worse in Brussles. Soon every part of our lifes will be run by people we have not elected.

Also if we have to have one europe and after a vote on it the country decide we should stay in they i will have to accept it. I will accept it if that happens. But will we have one retirement age across europe then? because it is fudging out of order that people have to work for longer in this country then say italy, about 6 years longer. If we can access benefits from any EU country as people are saying then what is stopping us moving to italy and claiming benefits there?

Maybe you and hooty are right and we have to see how they reorganise the EU because it needs massive amounts to me or it will destroy itself, something i would find very funny personally.

Will never understand why we are paying for the new tube network in poland. I heard some eu taco say it would make all of europe stronger and attract business to the EU. No it would attract business to poland and i dont give a fudge about poland, bring business here, or spend money on the NHS or schools, so i do not have to drive close to a 1000 miles in a week to pay for my sons education.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Debate is incredibly important. This board has slid to the right over the past few years (probably mirroring the British population as a whole) and this has led to a period where most political discussions on this board are post after post of back patting by posters with the same political views all agreeing on how bad (insert typical annoyance of right wing) is. I've been smashed by Clarky and Cyclone during political discussions on this board, one far to the right of me, one far to the left and I liked it because both times I learned something. The confirmation bias going on here a lot cannot be healthy.

Very true. I remember being a bit shocked that the EU received the nobel peace prize and then thinking that for a continent that has shown itself to be completely incapable of abstaining from repeated destructive wars, often dragging in other areas of the world, the EU has done an excellent job in creating an environment where it is no longer an attractive proposition to go to war. Why invade France again when its much easier to trade? Why go to war with insert some E European country etc etc?

I think the cost of the EU is overstated personally, as is how often the EU over-rides a British political decision. Thatcher also didn't leave the EU. My own personal fear is that most people in the UK are at best ambivalent/ ignorant about both the benefits and detriments of the EU to the UK and in a referendum, will be swayed by the loud voices on both sides. At the moment, the loudest voices are on the right calling for an exit. As I and others have already said, in 5 years time, the loudest voices may be the ones defending our membership. But by then, we're out and its too late. Most votes will not be cast on hard facts and policy (and I am of course not saying that those who want out don't know about the issue, there are a few UKIP supporters on here who clearly do know their stuff). The important thing is for the decision to be made in an environment of knowledge.

Good to hear mate, I don't often have the time anymore to really post in these kinds of threads and a couple of posters tinkle me off but it is always good to be open to listening and debate.

Well one of the big bug bears is no one is sure of the cost of the EU not the true cost, im not talking about the money we actually pay in but other things like that fact that we blindly follow the rules especailly the new eco ones that make us less attractive to over seas investment or the amount of moeny that immgration may cost, immigrants sending money home and not spending it in the economy or driving down wages for the British work force.

I would have had a Leveson type inquiry for the banking crisis(can not belive the has not been one) and also for the true cost of the EU and maybe one to see if privatizing the railways would be worth it again.

Clarky was one of the if not the best poster this site has ever had and i think this site is less for his input same goes with Milo, i know he is still around but i so enjoyed reading those 2 guys when they were talking politics and they made good points that would change my mind.

As for you noticing the right wing more, i would suggest it is because your a natural left wing person, nothing wrong in it but your just putting up with what i had to for years in the late 90's early noughties.

Also think when ever i hear someone complain about the right wing press or tabolid press as the fat old tory clown shoe ken clarke was the other day they are nearly as bad as the people who said i can't be racist i have black friends. A new thing i have seen happening is how the pro EU lot are saying things like "we need to wait and sort out the EU first, but yeah of course it needs a lot changing" is like they try to gain gravitas for their position by conceding that the is a problem, but i suspect all they are doing all along is trying to keep the status quo. Im old i have seen many people use this trick down the years.

 

[Gordinho]

As for you noticing the right wing more, i would suggest it is because your a natural left wing person, nothing wrong in it but your just putting up with what i had to for years in the late 90's early noughties.

I have rarely seen a decent point of view that's pro right wing on this board, I've seen lots of spastic knee jerking and over the top rhetoric but rarely a considered post. Clarky was the only right wing poster with any opinion worth listening to that I've experienced on this board.

It's like Littlejohn meets Clarkson with a little bit of Kelvin Mackenzie thrown into the mix at times round here. Laughable.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I have rarely seen a decent point of view that's pro right wing on this board, I've seen lots of spastic knee jerking and over the top rhetoric but rarely a considered post. Clarky was the only right wing poster with any opinion worth listening to that I've experienced on this board.

It's like Littlejohn meets Clarkson with a little bit of Kelvin Mackenzie thrown into the mix at times round here. Laughable.

Well it can often be risky discussing politics because people have passioante views. But what i have with a problem is that those on the left will often resort to name calling or invoke racism and other problems to try to dingerate the opposition point of view. I think we can all remember how for years if anyone even mentioned that they thought immigration was out of control they were labelled a racist.

Millbland even went to Asda and sat in their canteen and said sorry to some working class people(which must have terrified him being so close to the working class). This country has always been quite conservative in its atttitudes yet the powers that be and im not just talking about governments but judges and public bodies and councils etc have gotten more and more liberal over the last 10 years. It is normal to have a backlash against that.

When you consider that people arriving in this country who have paid no tax into the system are ahead of the indigenous population on the waiting list for a council home, or that they are able to send tax credits back to their countries of origin for children who have never set foot in the country it is quite mind blowing. Not many other countries would do that.

A lot of the european countries and america and australia have stronger rules then us, yet we are seen as a conservative country. I would suggest that the people in the country have that mind set but people who go into politics have a natural tilt towards liberalism, it is often said that these people also go into the arts as well. When natural conservative types are the ones out there working and creating jobs and doing jobs. I guess every 10 years or so you need to have a realignment of the countries politicans with the attitudes of the public.

I always enjoy chattiing with you Gordi and hootnow, is fun and interesting.