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Eastleigh

The bashing of bankers has to stop. Why are we in a financial mess? The bankers gave loans to people who couldn't afford them. The idiots who took out 120% mortgages are equally to blame. The real problem is that the governement decided these banks were too big to fail. Should have let them collapse and had new ones rise in their place.

It's not a fair comparison. Individuals took out single loans and they were responsible for their loans. If they couldn't pay they paid the penalty. No individual is responsible for more than their own loan. The bankers systematically made risky loans to a lot of people and that created a crisis. But more than this they conspired to hide the riskiness of the loans by packaging the risky loans in derivatives that were rated AAA. This is legal fraud. The banks knew what they were doing. Can you imagine if a trader made a business of selling barrels of premium apples with the bottom half containing of rotten apples. He'd be in prison.

I get confronted with these sorts of opinions reguarly, but I think it's the other way round. These papers are merely reflecting the views of the nation, not creating them. Sure they are sensationalist, but they are popular because people hold these beliefs, not so much the other way around.

I'd say it is both. The papers write what they think will appeal to their readers. The readers then take that as reinforcement for their beliefs and that strengthens their beliefs, allowing the papers to write more sensationalist stuff. A vicious circle (or a virtuous one if selling papers).
 
Is that not just what someone who is left wing would say? i mean i could criticise the guardian and how the people like judges read this left wing vile self hating rubbish and then go against what the majority of the public thinks is fair.

Im not sure on the death penalty, maybe for the most serious cases. But lets say after some poor child gets killed and the sun came out with a campaign for the death penalty and the public opinon was behind it. Should we then have that death penalty or should we not havee it because a small readership at the guardian and its liberal elite think they know better then the people.

Ken clarke and a few others have come out recently saying that we should be careful in how we talk about foreign people coming to the country and how we treat them because we could end up with a sitaution like germany in the 1930's. What i would say is that we have gone to far to the left and it is the lefts fault if the is a massive shift to the right.

If labour in the 2000's had been more centrist and actually stood up for the working class and their rights in this country then people would not feel the need to shift to the right. But labour did not want to make the unemployed in the north go out and get jobs, which would have been the best thing for them, so they got east europeans in to keep down the wages of the poor working class guys who actually go out and work.

My view maybe biased because of my politics but i truly believe labour started all this.

When it comes down to it i guess all our political views come from a place of our own history, so a lot of people who are immigrants will want to see more protection for immigrants, while people that have a long family history in this country will want to see their way of life protected. It does not make either side wrong, but when you have an indigenous population that is quite large then yes they might read the daily mail but it does not make them wrong.

The are two classes of people in this country those who work and those who don't need to whether it because they have so much money or because they live on benefits.

I often here the left or socialists say that people should not be afraid of people that are different from them, something i agree with, but it goes both ways and the left should not be afraid of people with conservative views or people that wish to protect ehir way of life.

Is there a single negative outcome affecting modern Britain that is not the fault of the left in your view? So long as people of the right continue to spout vitriolic garbage such as this, I will never fear them.
 
It's not a fair comparison. Individuals took out single loans and they were responsible for their loans. If they couldn't pay they paid the penalty. No individual is responsible for more than their own loan. The bankers systematically made risky loans to a lot of people and that created a crisis. But more than this they conspired to hide the riskiness of the loans by packaging the risky loans in derivatives that were rated AAA. This is legal fraud. The banks knew what they were doing. Can you imagine if a trader made a business of selling barrels of premium apples with the bottom half containing of rotten apples. He'd be in prison.

I agree, my post was somewhat silly. However, it's not fraud, because the banks don't rate anything. If a credit rating agency rates a product AAA which is much less safe, that is the fault of the credit rating agency. Also, everyone should know that such ratings aren't cast in stone, they are basically opinions.

It's known that credit rating agencies generally give stronger ratings to corporate debt and lower ratings to sovereign debt. To blindly trust a credit rating is foolish.
 
Is there a single negative outcome affecting modern Britain that is not the fault of the left in your view? So long as people of the right continue to spout vitriolic garbage such as this, I will never fear them.

That works both ways, of course.

So long as the left continue to spout their version of vitriolic garbage, I will never fear them.

I think that's known as detante in French, isn't it?
 
But they do.

They could not get where they are today without it. You just need to delve a little deeper.

In fact, UKIP have one of the best income tax policies out there. One which a number of "other" parties are currently alluding to (that'll be the LibLabCon by the way).

I'm a paid up UKIP member.....but I agree the party need to focus on other issues without turning it round to Europe each time. No argument there.


What you mean their policy to merge tax and NIC and have a flat rate? The same one that at present is totally unfunded, nice to have a flat rate and it may boost spending but they have not set out any information around how they would reform the rest of the economy and state benefits etc that all have some link to NIC.

The merging of tax and NIC was actually a tory policy at first and was announced during the budget in 2011 so it's not something they have copied like you say. The flat rate part is their own policy but that is a policy that has been namechecked multiple times over the years. They may have some good policies on the surface but they are not fully developed and considered. They are a bit like the Lib Dems in that a lot of their policies sound great but in reality a child could pick holes in the way they have laid them out, the reason they don't is because they know they will never be in power so they can say whatever they like knowing they will never have to consider the wider picture around it. haven't
 
Enlighten me then.........

No, you're sitting a couple of mouse clicks away from the largest encyclopedia the world has ever known and you want me to do it all for you. That's why Farage has got it all wrong, immigration encourages an entrepreneurial spirit while the indigenous population sit back and want everything done for them. ;)
 
That works both ways, of course.

So long as the left continue to spout their version of vitriolic garbage, I will never fear them.

I think that's known as detante in French, isn't it?

I don't mind right wing arguments, even if they only contain a modicum of logic, but not the rambling, disjointed and incoherent rants, that pass for debate by some of the posters on here.
 
I don't mind right wing arguments, even if they only contain a modicum of logic, but not the rambling, disjointed and incoherent rants, that pass for debate by some of the posters on here.

This is what the left does so well, just try to belittle others opinon and not show any empathy for someones point of view. If you shout enough people down maybe you can feel better about yourself. It is one way of stopping the debate, sort of what the left did with the immgration debate between 2000 and 2008, anyone question it and we will call them racist.

Best way to win a discussion is to stop the other side from discussing things, i must hand it to you lefties when the going gets tough you always resort to type:lol:

Earlier in the thread you said you would never fear the right, i find your use of the word fear rather odd. Why would you fear right wing people? i do not fear left wing people even if i find them a tad extremist like yourself at times. No i try to understand their point of view i try to empathise with them so i can understand how they think and how they think our country could be better.
 
Is there a single negative outcome affecting modern Britain that is not the fault of the left in your view? So long as people of the right continue to spout vitriolic garbage such as this, I will never fear them.

Yes there are a few, the railways for one i felt were not invested in enough in the 80's and 90's when the tories(the right) were in power, i also do not agree with the selling off of our industries something the french and germans still on the whole try to stop in their own countries even now. This again i believe started under the tories in the 80's so there are a few things that i do not put the whole balme at the door of the left.

If you would like to know specifics feel free to ask but i am not here online much anymore as i will be very busy the nexxt few years working.

Again i got to say your use of the word fear is a little odd. I think people like you try to stop debate rather then the excellent gordinho and hootnow who like to engage and put their view across.

Doubt i would ever convince gordi or hoot or changing their opinons and i doubt they would me, but it is intersting to hear their point of view. I guess what i should do is cheapen the whole debate and come into a thread and shout down peoples opinon and give a few curt remarks about vitriolic garbage and then i would feel better about myself.

I find it very sad that you do not take the opportunity to grow as a person and engage with people of a different opinon but then i have meet many like you over the years, even went to a billy bragg concert a few years ago.

Never found tory types so quick to shout down the opposition as left wing people and it is one of the reasons why i could never join your lot. Have a good night and see you around
 
Yes there are a few, the railways for one i felt were not invested in enough in the 80's and 90's when the tories(the right) were in power, i also do not agree with the selling off of our industries something the french and germans still on the whole try to stop in their own countries even now. This again i believe started under the tories in the 80's so there are a few things that i do not put the whole balme at the door of the left.

If you would like to know specifics feel free to ask but i am not here online much anymore as i will be very busy the nexxt few years working.

Again i got to say your use of the word fear is a little odd. I think people like you try to stop debate rather then the excellent gordinho and hootnow who like to engage and put their view across.

Doubt i would ever convince gordi or hoot or changing their opinons and i doubt they would me, but it is intersting to hear their point of view. I guess what i should do is cheapen the whole debate and come into a thread and shout down peoples opinon and give a few curt remarks about vitriolic garbage and then i would feel better about myself.

I find it very sad that you do not take the opportunity to grow as a person and engage with people of a different opinon but then i have meet many like you over the years, even went to a billy bragg concert a few years ago.

Never found tory types so quick to shout down the opposition as left wing people and it is one of the reasons why i could never join your lot. Have a good night and see you around

Clearly you have not read the thread closely because someone referred to people on the left fearing the right and I responded to that. My problem with you is that you are a divider, always looking for the us and them argument and always the same targets. Also your arguments dont make much sense. Other than that, you are a top bloke!
 
The defence policies are not something i like, but totally agree with the prison ones and the immigration and obviously for me the eu ones are the most important, some good some not so good, like most parties really.

The defence policies are beyond macaronic. Increase spending by 40%? Buy 3 new aircraft carriers? Is Farage still stuck in the cold war? Who exactly are we defending ourselves from with these weapons? And all this while cutting 2 million government jobs? Good to know that our money will be going to the right areas.

I'm not going to bother talking about the economic policies because that is something each side will never be able to convince the other on.

I don't really understand the point of doubling prison spaces either. We keep on sending more and more young people to prison and our crime rates keep on increasing. Their re-offending rate isn't low. Perhaps simply sending people to prison, especially in a system that is designed to punish not rehabilitate, isn't the solution?

He wants to franchise hospitals and GPs to companies?

Oppose wind farms? Ban an inconvenient truth from schools? Yet also incentivise the production of electric cars?


I know there's an element of Lib Dem 'we know we're never going to get power so we'll promise everything and everything' in there and some of the policies are good but seriously, wtf?
 
brick Chich, you really are a socialist, supporting public ownership of utilities. Probably a trot trying to undermine the establishment with erratic arguments.
 
The defence policies are beyond macaronic. Increase spending by 40%? Buy 3 new aircraft carriers? Is Farage still stuck in the cold war? Who exactly are we defending ourselves from with these weapons? And all this while cutting 2 million government jobs? Good to know that our money will be going to the right areas.

I'm not going to bother talking about the economic policies because that is something each side will never be able to convince the other on.

I don't really understand the point of doubling prison spaces either. We keep on sending more and more young people to prison and our crime rates keep on increasing. Their re-offending rate isn't low. Perhaps simply sending people to prison, especially in a system that is designed to punish not rehabilitate, isn't the solution?

He wants to franchise hospitals and GPs to companies?

Oppose wind farms? Ban an inconvenient truth from schools? Yet also incentivise the production of electric cars?


I know there's an element of Lib Dem 'we know we're never going to get power so we'll promise everything and everything' in there and some of the policies are good but seriously, wtf?

A large prison population would allow the government to both increase profits for the private prison-management companies they would inevitably sub-contract the facilities out to, and would allow them to appear 'tough on crime'.

There really isn't downside, as far as the right-leaning parties are concerned. And, unfortunately, this age is and will continue to be one where the right wing will gain ascendancy, and will continue to pursue their dismantling of everything liberal movements of the late 19th and early 20th century fought for.

And the worst part is that the liberals let them. We fell for the faux patriotism of phony wars carried out in the name of imaginary threats, and used to take away the freedoms people fought and died for eras ago. We silently acquiesced as the right to detention without charge was extended, we looked the other way when British citizens were renditioned, we tutted when De Menezes was killed because he looked funny. We eagerly followed, sheep-like, as the media led us into one crusade after another against immigrants, 'benefit-scroungers', mothers of ten living in comfortable homes on YOUR hard-earned tax money, the useless, greedy, lazy, scrounging poor. We shrugged as the unions were co-opted and neutered, we pouted as the wages of the top-band of white-collar financiers, managers and CEOs sky-rocketed to seventy, a hundred, two-hundred times what the average worker made because they 'created wealth', we subscribed to the idea of cheap credit being an extension of that 'wealth' being given down to us, as proof that the upper classes were re-distributing the wealth, just like the old days. We laughed as the first warning signs emerged that this credit being given to us was built on faulty premises, that the banks whose job it was to 'create wealth' were doing so splendidly, as long as you were in the top 1 percent, that this miracle of doubling the absolute GDP from 1997 to 2008 might be just a mirage.

No, we followed all that our government told us, because it was 'New Labour'. Because somehow, we imagined that the 'Labour' in the title meant something. We fought for issues like gay rights and an end to gender discrimination, while ignoring the looming threats that lurked behind the government's eagerness to push us into fighting for these things to the detriment of others. We achieved hollow victories indeed, when seen in the greater context.

Because one day, the whole facade came crashing down. The banks tumbled, and it turned out that they had been fooling us all along. There was no redistribution of the 'growth' this country had experienced, because now the banks wanted it all back, now that their fraud had been exposed. They came tumbling down, crashing the economy and forcing millions of people into situations where what was once affordable was now a distant memory. The government spent our tax money propping up those banks, even while they steered us into recession after recession, tumble after tumble. The world economy raced downwards, and the UK went with it. The party was over.

And now, we saw, too late, what had been building for so long. The chair was taken away, the curtain was pulled back and the brick wall behind the stage was revealed. The banks came after the people whose money had saved them, foreclosing homes and seizing assets as the results of a recession they created came to the fore. The conservatives came to power, promising to end the waste and self-indulgence of New Labour. They sold off the NHS to private companies, they cut thousands of government jobs, they slashed welfare and benefits and aid. They closed hospitals, departments, and schools. They cut council funding and arts funding. In short, they slashed away at everything that had epitomised liberal Britain.

But the curious thing is, the ones who started the collapse, the bankers....they still made record bonuses. They pocketed millions even as the economy burned. The super-wealthy put tens of trillions of dollars into offshore tax havens preventing the government's attempts to collect the tax it was owed. The absolute and average incomes of the top one percent increased, even as the rest of the country suffered sharp, cutting drops in their own incomes. Private companies raced to privatise government services like there was no tomorrow. Corporations paid less tax than the common people did, and tried to avoid paying even those taxes whenever they could. All this talk of wealth trickling down was revealed to be what some people had always suspected it to be; utter flimflam.

And, at this supreme moment in our post-WWII history, when everything that generation fought for and voted for is being stripped away in the name of rampant, unfettered capitalism: what do our people do? Do they finally rise up, demanding governmental change? do they fight the police who use batons, water sprays, tasers and rubber bullets to disperse innocent protests?do they march up to the banks and demand change, at the threat of a mass run? Do they, in short, stand up for their rights as citizens of a free, democratic, modernized, post-Beveridge nation?

No. We squabble over the football results. We vote for meaningless Big Brother and X-Factor competitions. We fight for whatever scraps of wealth the government deigns to give us. We live in increasing poverty, seeing homes closed, crime rise and wealth ebb away. And we turn on each other. We castigate the poorest as 'scroungers' without bothering to analyze why society has left them that way, unable to live a dignified life. We castigate poor youths as thieves, criminals and scum, and demand the return of capital punishment they rebel against the hopelessness and emptiness of society the only way they know how; by rioting and stealing. We justify police abuse, repression and mistreatment by assuming that the victims must have asked for it, while thoughtlessly accepting the endless media stories of two brave policewomen, killed by a thug, because it would 'disrespect' the memory of the dead to question either the system they worked under or the policemen/women themselves. We accept surveillance of our phones, our e-mails,and our Facebook accounts because the government needs it to stop 'terrorism'.We ignore the news of the government spying on activist movements and threatening 'miscreants'. And worst of all, we angrily accuse those among us who question this system of unequal distribution of being 'socialists', 'communists', and using 'the politics of envy'.

'Envy', because an average man working today cannot ever, ever hope to reach the levels of wealth that will see him join the ranks of the 'wealthy', in this supposedly merit-based society. 'Envy', because we see the trillions of tax pounds being siphoned away through corporate malfeasance, tax loopholes and share-based bonuses. 'Envy', because the NHS is cut and welfare is slashed while the wealthiest in society grow wealthier in this recession that we're supposedly 'all in together'. 'Envy', because we see companies with the sole motive of earning profits taking over public services, whose sole purpose is to provide for society, not to earn a profit.

So it really doesn't matter who you vote for: UKIP, Conservatives, New Labour, the BNP, the Lib Dems. They're all the same: they've accumulated enough power now that they see no need to give it away again, and nothing short of a catastrophic shift in society will persuade them to do so. All that I know is that there is a popular groundswell of anger building up across the Western world that is denied an outlet, a voice in their own governance and in this system of capitalism. Of course, the attempts to distract this angry populace continue apace; more shows, more football, more token gestures, more tough talk and no action. But less and less people are being taken in. And one day, someone, somewhere will snap. That is probably the only hope we have of seeing change in this right-wing shift. A shift, remember, that we, the proudly self-declared 'Liberal class', actively helped bring in. We fought for gay rights, they took away our freedoms. We fought for an end to inequality, and they granted it to us. We are now all equal. Whether you're an immigrant, gay, lesbian or a woman....you are now a proudly equal citizen, with an equal chance to be spied on, suppressed, told to shut up, and forced to work for spare change while your NHS outlet, welfare check or unemployment allowance is slashed to the bone to allow more money to be given to the banks to supposedly free up public lending. Celebrate. Our liberal selves. Hooray.

In 'Death of the Liberal Class', Chris Hedges supplies a great, snappy quote about this;

'The presidential election exposed the liberal class as a corpse. It fights for nothing. It stands for nothing. It is a useless appendage to the corporate state. It exists not to make possible incremental or piecemeal reform, as it originally did in a functional capitalist democracy; instead it has devolved into an instrument of personal vanity, burnishing the hollow morality of its adherents.'

I'm deepy sorry to hijack this thread, I had to get this off my chest somewhere. Take it as ramblings, if you want to.
 
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Clearly you have not read the thread closely because someone referred to people on the left fearing the right and I responded to that. My problem with you is that you are a divider, always looking for the us and them argument and always the same targets. Also your arguments dont make much sense. Other than that, you are a top bloke!

:barnet:

Now it is spreadiing to Germany http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...party-is-a-nasty-shock-for-Angela-Merkel.html

I was in Berlin last summer and went into the Reichstag for a tour, it is free if you book in advance for security and very interesting. They still have graffiti on the wall from the russian soldiers that stormed it in 45.

Always thought the Germans were sound, the problem with europe is the southerners, the exact opposite of this country where the problem is the northerners.
 
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