Contingency planning : When Ange is sacked, who should replace him?

[ricky2tricky4city]

1. The footballing world is very different now - no one gets three years anymore on the off chance that everything might turn out okay. Too much money involved.

2. I can't remember, but I'd be interested to know if United under Ferguson in the first three years were similar to what we are seeing with Ange (stats which suggest he is - or is knocking on being - our worst manager in PL history; results getting worse; player regression; the fanbase divided; multiple - and seemingly endless - injuries, quite possibly as a result of the system being played; the manager getting involved with fans post-games...).

3. We were here in the relatively early days of Poch. There was a turning point. That's yet to arrive for Ange. If it doesn't then he'll be gone in the summer (and possibly before).

Point 3 is interesting (I'll have to look back)...but I don't remember much twitchiness with Poch... certainly not any outrage, condemnation, cluelessness commentary.

Off the top of my head... The Stoke dressing room clash was a pivotal moment.

 

[Mikey10]

Point 3 is interesting (I'll have to look back)...but I don't remember much twitchiness with Poch... certainly not any outrage, condemnation, cluelessness commentary.

Off the top of my head... The Stoke dressing room clash was a pivotal moment.

I was thinking of the general sentiment being that he was going to be sacked if we hadn't beaten Villa with the infamous deflected free kick..?

Agree that the general vibe around Poch wasn't like it is now.

I could very well be misremembering.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I was thinking of the general sentiment being that he was going to be sacked if we hadn't beaten Villa with the infamous deflected free kick..?

Agree that the general vibe around Poch wasn't like it is now.

I could very well be misremembering.

I think you are not misrembering.

Having checked though that Villa away game was at the end of October 2014. Poch only started his first PL campaign with us 10 (?) weeks earlier!

So patience has improved

 

[Muttley]

Interestingly for me is that I don't recall ever seeing us dominate a game under Ange. Never left the stadium and thought to myself that we put in a complete performance. Because we only play one way, I don't think it lends it's self to those total 90 mins performances. I'm thinking of the game under Poch were Alli scored those 2 headers v Chelsea for example.

Just one of my all time favourite games. Half mentioned it on the other thread earlier today. Those Eriksen-Dele combinations for the 2 goals. How Poch accommodated Dier into a back three and put Walker and Rose as wing-backs. Alonso and Moses didn't know what hit them after coasting all season. Then you have Big Vic and Dembele owning Kante and Matic every time they played each other.

Was chatting to Steff a couple of days back about the 16/17 season. For me that was our best season and when we plateua'd at 86 points. Fine margins in CL as we got 7 points in the qualifying campaign and dropped out at Xmas. 2 years later we got 8 points thanks to the Moura goal against Barca 2nd string. Then we got to the CL final. That was special as well, but not as good as the 16/17 season team for me.

BTW, I don't blame Poch at all for that being his plateau. He had his hands tied behind his back with the transfer situation and couldn't keep building us stronger and stronger. Walker left, Rose crocked, Wanyama crocked and on and on and on. I was hoping that is where we would be again by the 25/26 season under Ange but this time I felt we would have the model to stay there. It's crazy how things have gone. That's probably another 2 years away again.

From memory, that was the first time I'd ever seen Poch play the 3 at the back and he absolutely nailed it. We watched Ange try it one this season and it was horrible. That raised concerns in my head as, whilst being in the injury crisis, it implied that Ange couldn't setup for one-off games with his generic tactical system. He had to change back at half time. It's why I agree with you. Where is that complete performance under Ange? The closest I've seen is City in the cup when we won 1-0. The day VDV got injured. We were fantastic in our execution that day but Pep hadn't put out his big guns. We've not been without some great performances, but not complete ones. We had loads under Poch.

 

[Raziel]

I'd take Marco Silva but not as a stopgap for Poch.

If we want Poch, both club and manager need to make the very difficult choice and do it NOW. USMT will understand.

If not, then we should be thinking about Silva or Iraolo or anyone else as a long term hire. Poch would have made his decision and would hopefully have to wait a very long time for our plum job to reappear. It is a great job to have in football.

100% .. otherwise it's just nostalgia talk (which is fine).

If it's a real consideration, all parties need to commit, because honestly, if we go back, it should be a long term expectation.

If not, pick the next manager, Iriola, Silva, whoever and move on ..

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Just one of my all time favourite games. Half mentioned it on the other thread earlier today. Those Eriksen-Dele combinations for the 2 goals. How Poch accommodated Dier into a back three and put Walker and Rose as wing-backs. Alonso and Moses didn't know what hit them after coasting all season. Then you have Big Vic and Dembele owning Kante and Matic every time they played each other.

Was chatting to Steff a couple of days back about the 16/17 season. For me that was our best season and when we plateua'd at 86 points. Fine margins in CL as we got 7 points in the qualifying campaign and dropped out at Xmas. 2 years later we got 8 points thanks to the Moura goal against Barca 2nd string. Then we got to the CL final. That was special as well, but not as good as the 16/17 season team for me.

BTW, I don't blame Poch at all for that being his plateau. He had his hands tied behind his back with the transfer situation and couldn't keep building us stronger and stronger. Walker left, Rose crocked, Wanyama crocked and on and on and on. I was hoping that is where we would be again by the 25/26 season under Ange but this time I felt we would have the model to stay there. It's crazy how things have gone. That's probably another 2 years away again.

From memory, that was the first time I'd ever seen Poch play the 3 at the back and he absolutely nailed it. We watched Ange try it one this season and it was horrible. That raised concerns in my head as, whilst being in the injury crisis, it implied that Ange couldn't setup for one-off games with his generic tactical system. He had to change back at half time. It's why I agree with you. Where is that complete performance under Ange? The closest I've seen is City in the cup when we won 1-0. The day VDV got injured. We were fantastic in our execution that day but Pep hadn't put out his big guns. We've not been without some great performances, but not complete ones. We had loads under Poch.

The reason we don't have "complete" performances under Ange is that he doesn't work on achieving complete performances. He works primarily on playing our offensive game when on the ball and isn't as interested in working on disrupting the opposition's game when we don't have the ball. Therefore even when we have very good performances under Ange we tend to concede chances. Over the course of a season at this level that also translates to a lot of defeats. The key thing preventing Ange making the step up is that missing piece: in this kind of league, you can't afford all of your focus to be on hurting the opposition and you need to devote equal or even more focus on preventing the opposition from hurting you. If you look at Poch's seasons we consistently had one of if not the best defensive record in the league. That was the foundation of everything. Ange doesn't build foundations. He just sticks bricks on sand.

 

[DTA]

The reason we don't have "complete" performances under Ange is that he doesn't work on achieving complete performances. He works primarily on playing our offensive game when on the ball and isn't as interested in working on disrupting the opposition's game when we don't have the ball. Therefore even when we have very good performances under Ange we tend to concede chances. Over the course of a season at this level that also translates to a lot of defeats. The key thing preventing Ange making the step up is that missing piece: in this kind of league, you can't afford all of your focus to be on hurting the opposition and you need to devote equal or even more focus on preventing the opposition from hurting you. If you look at Poch's seasons we consistently had one of if not the best defensive record in the league. That was the foundation of everything. Ange doesn't build foundations. He just sticks bricks on sand.

Recently The amount of games we haven’t scored or even had a shot on target, suggests to me that if he is putting all the focus on hurting opposition… that’s no longer working either.

Time to go mate.

 

[Lemonade Money]

No one should ever sack their manager because Fergie turned around a slow start nearly 40 years ago

Don't let your agenda get in the way of a good spin.

 

[Lilbaz]

Don't let your agenda get in the way of a good spin.

Agenda? Have you looked at the league? We are oncourse, for our worst ever premier league points tally. This is worse than gross, far worse than sherwood. Give him more time? You an arsenal fan or something?

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Agenda? Have you looked at the league? We are oncourse, for our worst ever premier league points tally. This is worse than gross, far worse than sherwood. Give him more time? You an arsenal fan or something?

I've been acused of having an agenda against Ange on a variety of occasions. My only agenda is the poor performances. I don't deny that I was against his appointment from the start and that, yes, that meant that I've become negative about him more quickly. But ultimately, I want Spurs to win. I don't want to churn through yet another manager. I don't want to sit through turgid after turgid performance. I don't want to see spurs lose 20+ games in a season.

 

[Raziel]

The reason we don't have "complete" performances under Ange is that he doesn't work on achieving complete performances. He works primarily on playing our offensive game when on the ball and isn't as interested in working on disrupting the opposition's game when we don't have the ball. Therefore even when we have very good performances under Ange we tend to concede chances. Over the course of a season at this level that also translates to a lot of defeats. The key thing preventing Ange making the step up is that missing piece: in this kind of league, you can't afford all of your focus to be on hurting the opposition and you need to devote equal or even more focus on preventing the opposition from hurting you. If you look at Poch's seasons we consistently had one of if not the best defensive record in the league. That was the foundation of everything. Ange doesn't build foundations. He just sticks bricks on sand.

It's much simpler

- The system gives up high quality chances, which at this level is punished due to quality of opposition. I genuinely believe the system probably works fine in scenarios where the opposition quality doesn't allow them to be clinical enough to make it count week in, week out.
- No in game management, a failure to understand that even top teams "lose control" of games for 10-15 minute spells, in those moments, you need to make sure you don't concede. When we dominate, the opposition closes ranks and becomes hard to score against, when the opposition gets momentum, we remain open.

It's actually crazy that this system worked until this point

 

[Lemonade Money]

Agenda? Have you looked at the league? We are oncourse, for our worst ever premier league points tally. This is worse than gross, far worse than sherwood. Give him more time? You an arsenal fan or something?

It is nowhere near Gross or Sherwood, you need to look at the bigger picture.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

It's much simpler

- The system gives up high quality chances, which at this level is punished due to quality of opposition. I genuinely believe the system probably works fine in scenarios where the opposition quality doesn't allow them to be clinical enough to make it count week in, week out.
- No in game management, a failure to understand that even top teams "lose control" of games for 10-15 minute spells, in those moments, you need to make sure you don't concede. When we dominate, the opposition closes ranks and becomes hard to score against, when the opposition gets momentum, we remain open.

It's actually crazy that this system worked until this point

Agreed. Although it isn't really that crazy that the system worked until this point. This is Ange's coaching CV:
- South Melbourne
- Australia u17
- Australia u20
- Panachaiki
- Whittlesea Zebras
- Brisbane Roar
- Melbourne Victory
- Australia
- Yokohama F Marinos
- Celtic

Celtic are the highest level he coached at. His record v Rangers: P 11 W 6 D 3 L 2. Decent on paper but for example the red flags for me in the record are that in both defeats to Rangers, Rangers won 3-0. I.e. that was the sign that when things didn't go right against an opponent of similar quality they tended to go badly wrong (i.e. an inability to grind out a result when you weren't playing well).

European record at Celtic is not that great. Another red flag with bricking the bed first season by getting knocked out in qualifying and failing to get out the group stage the season after

Ultimately it's not a CV that should have got him anywhere near the reckoning for the Spurs job and the club have to take a healthy dose of the responsibility for what has transpired since. As in, it really can't come as a surprise that he's been totally out or his depth.

I don't have anything personal against Ange. But at the end of the day it's like Tesco going out and appointing Mr. Jones from the local greengrocer as their new CEO.

 

[Jordinho]

It is nowhere near Gross or Sherwood, you need to look at the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is that we're wasting a good group of young players on the awful football we're playing.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

The bigger picture is that we're wasting a good group of young players on the awful football we're playing.

I really do wonder what it is with postecoglu and some of our fans. It really is Gross level on pretty much every fact other than GD and the fact that Postecoglu had a far better squad, reflected in the occasional ability to pull a rabbit of a performance out of a hat.

 

[glasgowspur]

Agreed. Although it isn't really that crazy that the system worked until this point. This is Ange's coaching CV:
- South Melbourne
- Australia u17
- Australia u20
- Panachaiki
- Whittlesea Zebras
- Brisbane Roar
- Melbourne Victory
- Australia
- Yokohama F Marinos
- Celtic

Celtic are the highest level he coached at. His record v Rangers: P 11 W 6 D 3 L 2. Decent on paper but for example the red flags for me in the record are that in both defeats to Rangers, Rangers won 3-0. I.e. that was the sign that when things didn't go right against an opponent of similar quality they tended to go badly wrong (i.e. an inability to grind out a result when you weren't playing well).

European record at Celtic is not that great. Another red flag with some crazy defeats (his celtic team lost 7-1 to Borussis Dortmund in the UCL.

Ultimately it's not a CV that should have got him anywhere near the reckoning for the Spurs job and the club have to take a healthy dose of the responsibility for what has transpired since. As in, it really can't come as a surprise that he's been totally out or his depth.

I don't have anything personal against Ange. But at the end of the day it's like Tesco going out and appointing Mr. Jones from the local greengrocer as their new CEO.

7-1 against Dortmund was Rodgers, who has the absolute worst record of a Celtic manager in Europe.
Not defending ange, I just like saying that as I hate Rodgers.

 

[Muttley]

Yep, Ange has divided the fans. Some genuinely believe that Ange was right to put his stake in the ground about his tactical system and drive everything around it. Others like me wanted him to intelligently plot a path towards his go-to system, not reverse engineer from it. I didn't fully trust it from the time I saw us batter West Ham in preseason and lose the game. There were some immediate red flags from me how easy we were undone. Same as his first 10 competitive games in charge. I would have been more patient if I saw some pragmatism and some acknowledgment from Ange that he new to this league and needed to adjust.

I think it takes a more skilful manager that looks at all the resources he has, makes the assessment that his system cannot work just quite yet and then plots a path. A manager that make the compromises from day 1, but incrementally gets to his outcome in an iterative fashion. It's like anything, you course correct on the journey and end up with something better than your plan A anyway. Just ask Pep or Klopp. There are many different ways to play front foot, entertaining football.

It was way too easy to be Ange especially when you're good with words and can sell the vision. You'll only get away with that for so long though, as he's now finding out. When the P45 finally comes, I hope Ange reflects. If he does, and decides to change, I still think he can make a great PL coach. There's a lot to like about him.

 

[monkeybarry]

The latest is that it was taken a fortnight ago (allegedly).

View attachment 19090

The shorts and socks is bad.
But, why the F does poch need two pairs of Sunnies?!

 

[Lilbaz]

The shorts and socks is bad.
But, why the F does poch need two pairs of Sunnies?!

Wasn't hot enough to wear flip flops, hence the jackets (wear socks with trainers unless you want them to stink). Tbh i'd wear short/ankle socks. He's an ex footballer though used to wearing long socks and shorts. Guessing reading glasses and sun glasses.

 

[tommysvr]

I really do wonder what it is with postecoglu and some of our fans. It really is Gross level on pretty much every fact other than GD and the fact that Postecoglu had a far better squad, reflected in the occasional ability to pull a rabbit of a performance out of a hat.

Gross was managing in 1997, when teams were still going out on the tinkle regularly, having fry ups before games, the money and the quality of players throughout the league no where near what it is today. It's a totally different game, and it makes the comparisons to Ange seem desperate to paint him with the same "clueless foreigner" brush.