Climate Change

[Lilbaz]

@glasgowspur you might be interested in this. We connected to norway last week.

 

[Bullet]

Edit - vid shows a guy filling up a toyota mirai

I liked it when he absolutely sh*t his pants just after plugging in at 8:10

10,000psi is INSANE

 

[Rorschach]

He was just saying we should build more than we need, so if there is a dip, we still have enough. Which is what we'll do. Any excess will be stored. We will not rely on one energy source but will have a mix.
We used to do this with fossil fuels. With lots of storage and peaker plants (that could be fired up when needed). Centrica in it's infinite wisdom closed the uk's biggest gas storage facility (accounting for 70% of the uk stock) in 2017. With world demand for gas and coal being higher than supply and the wind dropping, it left us fudged.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-21/u-k-s-lack-of-gas-plan-leaves-country-at-mercy-of-global-market#:~:text=Centrica Plc, the U.K.'s,the mercy of global markets.

Crazy decision really. All the more so now that Russia is acting the dingdong over the gas supply to EU.

 

[Rorschach]

You can own and run a hydrogen car now. But I think there is only 1 or 2 hydrogen stations? And only the Japanese making hydrogen cars.

It solves many of the EV issues. But at the moment it’s not as Green because it takes a lot of electricity to separate hydrogen atoms and then you have storage challenges because it is so explosive.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Hydrogen will have a place no doubt if they keeping investing, but battery EV has the momentum in the market I think that is where things are headed for the foreseeable future. And the battery tech moving at such a pace that range issues will fade into the rearview mirror soon enough . I predict hydrogen cars will be the betamax of electric cars.

 

[Lilbaz]

Crazy decision really. All the more so now that Russia is acting the dingdong over the gas supply to EU.

Tbf russia hasn't really done anything wrong. They've fulfilled their orders. Europe just needs more as the bounce back after the pandemic across the world has increased demand and prices have gone up. Russia are saying we had a deal to build the new pipeline but cancelled, now you want more?
They are actually going to provide more. Prices dropped after putin announced it.

 

[Lilbaz]

Hydrogen will have a place no doubt if they keeping investing, but battery EV has the momentum in the market I think that is where things are headed for the foreseeable future. And the battery tech moving at such a pace that range issues will fade into the rearview mirror soon enough . I predict hydrogen cars will be the betamax of electric cars.

Cars maybe but not for long distance trucking, ships or possibly aeroplanes.

 

[Lilbaz]

This seems like it could be good. Basically verticle turbines on lamp posts on motorways powered by the wind caused by traffic.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Hydrogen will have a place no doubt if they keeping investing, but battery EV has the momentum in the market I think that is where things are headed for the foreseeable future. And the battery tech moving at such a pace that range issues will fade into the rearview mirror soon enough . I predict hydrogen cars will be the betamax of electric cars.

I'm still not convinced by batteries powering cars longer term. I am biased because I like driving lighter-weight cars. I have an old 911 that weighs a little over 1000kgs. It gives an agility which clever engineering trickery tries to replicate in modern heavier cars, but it is never quite the same. Rear-wheel electric steering systems and huge torque from turbos/EV give some driving dynamism, but they don't have the same feel as a lighter car. Everything is worked less in a lighter car too - the breaks are more powerful/need less to work better, same with the engine, suspension etc etc.

There is something inelegant about carting around all that weight. All the metal in the battery effectively costs you charging time (ie it weighs the car down so you need to charge more), and seems like longer-term, humans will find a clean lighter-weight way to get around. As mentioned batteries don't work for commercial vehicles that are expected to be working 24/7. They are too heavy for planes. We need a charging network; and to wait to refuel on longer trips. Plus they cause all sorts of environmental costs in rare metal mining and battery production. If EVs are the final solution, I think we've failed.

 

[Rorschach]

Cars maybe but not for long distance trucking, ships or possibly aeroplanes.

Yep I could see that or some combination of sources - batteries/panels/hydrogen powered elec motors for ships. Hydrogen for planes as it has good energy density.
I think Toyota backed the wrong horse in the EV car market though.

Tbf russia hasn't really done anything wrong. They've fulfilled their orders. Europe just needs more as the bounce back after the pandemic across the world has increased demand and prices have gone up. Russia are saying we had a deal to build the new pipeline but cancelled, now you want more?
They are actually going to provide more. Prices dropped after putin announced it.

Well I've seen a few different analysis on that. I think EU have put their balls in Putins hands over NS2 and he squeezed a little, but maybe that's a discussion for a different thread.

 

[Rorschach]

I'm still not convinced by batteries powering cars longer term. I am biased because I like driving lighter-weight cars. I have an old 911 that weighs a little over 1000kgs. It gives an agility which clever engineering trickery tries to replicate in modern heavier cars, but it is never quite the same. Rear-wheel electric steering systems and huge torque from turbos/EV give some driving dynamism, but they don't have the same feel as a lighter car. Everything is worked less in a lighter car too - the breaks are more powerful/need less to work better, same with the engine, suspension etc etc.

There is something inelegant about carting around all that weight. All the metal in the battery effectively costs you charging time (ie it weighs the car down so you need to charge more), and seems like longer-term, humans will find a clean lighter-weight way to get around. As mentioned batteries don't work for commercial vehicles that are expected to be working 24/7. They are too heavy for planes. We need a charging network; and to wait to refuel on longer trips. Plus they cause all sorts of environmental costs in rare metal mining and battery production. If EVs are the final solution, I think we've failed.

The cleaner lighter way is bikes . Electric buses and vans are more commonplace too will continue to invade the commercial space more. EV batteries are improving at such a rate I have no real concerns. What happened with the solar PV market is happening now with the LIBs market. And I see sodium batteries sneaking up on the rail also which is interesting. I have plenty of climate-related concerns but this is trending the right way IMO. Besides, it is the fastest/cheapest way to decarbonise the travel sector we know so let's take that win, even if it is not perfect.
If you would like to geek out on copious amounts of battery related guff David Roberts did a excellent drop of articles on different aspects of batteries that might tickle your fancy.

 

[SpurMeUp]

The cleaner lighter way is bikes . Electric buses and vans are more commonplace too will continue to invade the commercial space more. EV batteries are improving at such a rate I have no real concerns. What happened with the solar PV market is happening now with the LIBs market. And I see sodium batteries sneaking up on the rail also which is interesting. I have plenty of climate-related concerns but this is trending the right way IMO. Besides, it is the fastest/cheapest way to decarbonise the travel sector we know so let's take that win, even if it is not perfect.
If you would like to geek out on copious amounts of battery related guff David Roberts did a excellent drop of articles on different aspects of batteries that might tickle your fancy.

I don’t want to appear negative. The sooner cities are populated by electrically powered scooters, car, buses the better. Quiet clean and better for everyone - except those working in the third world mines.

I just feel that the charging issue is such a massive unappreciated problem. How will people who live in blocks charge their car? How many more fuelling-charge stations will we need when fuelling time is multiplied by 10 or 20 times? What is the cost of all the infrastructure required?

And then what do you do on long journeys? A drive to the south of France was possible in a day. With EVs you need favourable luck with chargers being free and probably need more than a day with stops off.

We’re banning ICE cars pretty soon. As things stand there is no way we can accommodate all the EVs in the city. Will we have streets lined with chargers on every parking bay? No one knows but in a few years we are set to get rid of a highly refined product and system. Which is a great thing. Clean air can’t arrive soon enough. If there were a magic way to achieve it I’d love this revolution to happen tomorrow tea time…

But it can’t because there are not anything like the places needed to charge up. With a short timeframe reality is staring us in the face and I can’t see clear answers. Hybrid cars will have to be the (suboptimal) answer short term.

Hydrogen if it can develop as other clean technologies have, solves many problems battery cars will have. So I don’t think we can be confident in EVs yet. Either batteries, hydrogen or efuels need development to win out.

The rubber lost into the environment from tyers on the heavier EV cars, the bigger breaks, suspension etc makes EVs less favourable for me. The significant environmental impact from making and recycling old batteries is also far from ideal. I wouldn’t write off the Japs just yet…


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Lilbaz]

I'm still not convinced by batteries powering cars longer term. I am biased because I like driving lighter-weight cars. I have an old 911 that weighs a little over 1000kgs. It gives an agility which clever engineering trickery tries to replicate in modern heavier cars, but it is never quite the same. Rear-wheel electric steering systems and huge torque from turbos/EV give some driving dynamism, but they don't have the same feel as a lighter car. Everything is worked less in a lighter car too - the breaks are more powerful/need less to work better, same with the engine, suspension etc etc.

There is something inelegant about carting around all that weight. All the metal in the battery effectively costs you charging time (ie it weighs the car down so you need to charge more), and seems like longer-term, humans will find a clean lighter-weight way to get around. As mentioned batteries don't work for commercial vehicles that are expected to be working 24/7. They are too heavy for planes. We need a charging network; and to wait to refuel on longer trips. Plus they cause all sorts of environmental costs in rare metal mining and battery production. If EVs are the final solution, I think we've failed.

It's not the final solution though is it? We only started producing proper ev cars in 2010 with the nissan leaf. We're basically in the model t era for ev's. Tesla took it to another level, now everyones jumping on board. All are looking st making the batteries lighter, cheaper and last longer.

26% of all new cars sold in the world this year were evs. Europe it was 29%. These are no longer niche.

https://www.power-technology.com/news/electric-vehicle-sales-surge-in-2021/

 

[SpurMeUp]

It's not the final solution though is it? We only started producing proper ev cars in 2010 with the nissan leaf. We're basically in the model t era for ev's. Tesla took it to another level, now everyones jumping on board. All are looking st making the batteries lighter, cheaper and last longer.

26% of all new cars sold in the world this year were evs. Europe it was 29%. These are no longer niche.

https://www.power-technology.com/news/electric-vehicle-sales-surge-in-2021/

My point was that it is not the final solution. That development in one of these technologies will have to come. it is exciting and let’s hope it comes sooner rather than later. I also hope it’s not EVs because of the significant impact on CO2 emission from making and decommissioning batteries.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Lilbaz]

I don’t want to appear negative. The sooner cities are populated by electrically powered scooters, car, buses the better. Quiet clean and better for everyone - except those working in the third world mines.

I just feel that the charging issue is such a massive unappreciated problem. How will people who live in blocks charge their car? How many more fuelling-charge stations will we need when fuelling time is multiplied by 10 or 20 times? What is the cost of all the infrastructure required?

And then what do you do on long journeys? A drive to the south of France was possible in a day. With EVs you need favourable luck with chargers being free and probably need more than a day with stops off.

We’re banning ICE cars pretty soon. As things stand there is no way we can accommodate all the EVs in the city. Will we have streets lined with chargers on every parking bay? No one knows but in a few years we are set to get rid of a highly refined product and system. Which is a great thing. Clean air can’t arrive soon enough. If there were a magic way to achieve it I’d love this revolution to happen tomorrow tea time…

But it can’t because there are not anything like the places needed to charge up. With a short timeframe reality is staring us in the face and I can’t see clear answers. Hybrid cars will have to be the (suboptimal) answer short term.

Hydrogen if it can develop as other clean technologies have, solves many problems battery cars will have. So I don’t think we can be confident in EVs yet. Either batteries, hydrogen or efuels need development to win out.

The rubber lost into the environment from tyers on the heavier EV cars, the bigger breaks, suspension etc makes EVs less favourable for me. The significant environmental impact from making and recycling old batteries is also far from ideal. I wouldn’t write off the Japs just yet…


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

You don't need a big petrol station to charge evs. Electricity doesn't need to be delivered or stored like petrol. It is availbe nearly everywhere we go. So we can have charging points nearly everywhere and as many as we want.

 

[Lilbaz]

My point was that it is not the final solution. That development in one of these technologies will have to come. it is exciting and let’s hope it comes sooner rather than later. I also hope it’s not EVs because of the significant impact on CO2 emission from making and decommissioning batteries.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Why does there have to be co2 emissions from making the batteries? You don't need to decommission them either. They may not be able to charge a car but can be reused for energy storage. Then recycled.

 

[Rorschach]

I don’t want to appear negative. The sooner cities are populated by electrically powered scooters, car, buses the better. Quiet clean and better for everyone - except those working in the third world mines.

I just feel that the charging issue is such a massive unappreciated problem. How will people who live in blocks charge their car? How many more fuelling-charge stations will we need when fuelling time is multiplied by 10 or 20 times? What is the cost of all the infrastructure required?

And then what do you do on long journeys? A drive to the south of France was possible in a day. With EVs you need favourable luck with chargers being free and probably need more than a day with stops off.

We’re banning ICE cars pretty soon. As things stand there is no way we can accommodate all the EVs in the city. Will we have streets lined with chargers on every parking bay? No one knows but in a few years we are set to get rid of a highly refined product and system. Which is a great thing. Clean air can’t arrive soon enough. If there were a magic way to achieve it I’d love this revolution to happen tomorrow tea time…

But it can’t because there are not anything like the places needed to charge up. With a short timeframe reality is staring us in the face and I can’t see clear answers. Hybrid cars will have to be the (suboptimal) answer short term.

Hydrogen if it can develop as other clean technologies have, solves many problems battery cars will have. So I don’t think we can be confident in EVs yet. Either batteries, hydrogen or efuels need development to win out.

The rubber lost into the environment from tyers on the heavier EV cars, the bigger breaks, suspension etc makes EVs less favourable for me. The significant environmental impact from making and recycling old batteries is also far from ideal. I wouldn’t write off the Japs just yet…


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

A lot to unpack in there which I don't really have time to respond on. All I'll say in response is that electricity is everywhere and the infrastructure is tinkle easy to put in. I put a charger on my own house (myself!) for 120 quid. Build it and they will come. Personally, I think you are worrying too much about this but I accept you have concerns. To me we are in the realm of policy decisions rather than technical ones.

 

[Lilbaz]

As for long distance journies. Some of the new evs have ranges of 500 miles. Lucid airs new model can charge at 20 miles a minute.

That's 700 miles with a 10 min break.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Why does there have to be co2 emissions from making the batteries? You don't need to decommission them either. They may not be able to charge a car but can be reused for energy storage. Then recycled.

There was an EU study that totted up the environmental impacts of producing EVs. The diggers in the mines, moving the metal to china , the making of the battery etc etc. it is significantly higher than building a current ICE car. But over the lifetime of the vehicle not burning fuel means EVs are something like 40-60% better than ICE cars (can’t remember the exact figures).

But why clean up and choose a suboptimal tech that also pollutes? Of course short term EVs are the best way forward. They work now for short journeys provided you have a charging setup. Longer term there must be cleaner better solutions.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[SpurMeUp]

You don't need a big petrol station to charge evs. Electricity doesn't need to be delivered or stored like petrol. It is availbe nearly everywhere we go. So we can have charging points nearly everywhere and as many as we want.

If it is so easy, why are there so few charging points in London? All new cars in a few years will be electric to some degree. What are we waiting for?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Lilbaz]

There was an EU study that totted up the environmental impacts of producing EVs. The diggers in the mines, moving the metal to china , the making of the battery etc etc. it is significantly higher than building a current ICE car. But over the lifetime of the vehicle not burning fuel means EVs are something like 40-60% better than ICE cars (can’t remember the exact figures).

But why clean up and choose a suboptimal tech that also pollutes? Of course short term EVs are the best way forward. They work now for short journeys provided you have a charging setup. Longer term there must be cleaner better solutions.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

You realise we are moving to clean energy? So the diggers in the mines, moving the metal to china, the making of the batteries etc... won't produce co2?