Climate Change

[SpurMeUp]

Also very expensive. I think it will be used more for trucks/buses. But we'll see. The price will come down as more hydrogen production comes on line. Nissan and toyota obviously think its a good bet.

Answered By:
The Mayor
Date:
Thursday, 13th February 2020
There are two publicly accessible hydrogen refuelling stations in London. They are at the Centre for Engineering and Manufacturing Excellence (CEME) Campus, Marsh Way in Rainham, and the National Physical Laboratory, Essen Way in Teddington. Both stations offer refuelling for hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Transport for London have one hydrogen refuelling station in Lea Interchange Bus Depot in Leyton, for buses only.

—-


I guess if you use the reduction in cost of batteries as some form of guide, hydrogen produced on mass, would become cheaper and more efficient. To what degree we don’t know.

We need some cunning inventors to find an efficient way to extract and store hydrogen using renewable energy. Then it would take over pretty quickly. But theses 2 core obstacles are far from simple to solve. In the meantime will battery tech or efuels surpass them all?

A fascinating time to be involved in this sector with fortunes to be made.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Lilbaz]

Answered By:
The Mayor
Date:
Thursday, 13th February 2020
There are two publicly accessible hydrogen refuelling stations in London. They are at the Centre for Engineering and Manufacturing Excellence (CEME) Campus, Marsh Way in Rainham, and the National Physical Laboratory, Essen Way in Teddington. Both stations offer refuelling for hydrogen fuel cell cars.

Transport for London have one hydrogen refuelling station in Lea Interchange Bus Depot in Leyton, for buses only.

—-


I guess if you use the reduction in cost of batteries as some form of guide, hydrogen produced on mass, would become cheaper and more efficient. To what degree we don’t know.

We need some cunning inventors to find an efficient way to extract and store hydrogen using renewable energy. Then it would take over pretty quickly. But theses 2 core obstacles are far from simple to solve. In the meantime will battery tech or efuels surpass them all?

A fascinating time to be involved in this sector with fortunes to be made.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Electrolysis. We know how to do it. But as there's little demand at the moment few want to invest. Why produce something you can't sell? Also cheaper to procuce it using fossil fuels.

But demand is coming.

 

[glasgowspur]

Why does it need to be efficient? It's a infinite/renewable resource. No one worries about how much food supermarkets waste, its just important they always have enough food

Across a large enough geographical area there'll always be a baseline volume of wind (and don't forget solar is powered by light, not sun).

If you have moving parts constantly moving they going to wear out very quickly.
And how do predict were the wind will blow or sunshine?
Is building huge amounts of these machines not in itself anti green?

 

[Lilbaz]

If you have moving parts constantly moving they going to wear out very quickly.
And how do predict were the wind will blow or sunshine?
Is building huge amounts of these machines not in itself anti green?

Are you actually interested to find out the answer? Or are you trying to argue because you don't like renewables? If it's the former i will happily answer. If it's the later i would ask why? Forget climste change, renewables will be cheaper than fossil fuels meaning you will save money. Renewables also release less toxins into the air meaning the air will be cleaner and your health will improve. We will be less dependant on other countries for our energy needs. Especially the likes of saudi arabia. No windmill has ever funded terrorism. Or started wars. Unlike oil.

Oh and city wouldn't be able to buy the league.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Boris has just started the designs for the uks first fusion reactor

I was just visualising that piece of paper for a moment.

 

[Lilbaz]

I was just visualising that piece of paper for a moment.

Lol it would have lasers.

 

[scaramanga]

Still a long way to go on the fusion development. Iter has been in the works for a while now. Collaboration of 35 countries. Uk one boris announced in 2019. Planning stage.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-03039-9

https://www.iter.org/proj/inafewlines

As for cranks and con artists i believe you're thinking of cold fusion. Fusion we can do, at the moment though we put in more energy than we get out. Apart from hydrogen bombs. Although we are very close to breaking even.

You may be right, I probably am thinking of cold fusion.

Although I thought the underlying problem was the same - that the energy required to cause the fusion was greater than that taken from it, and that the output was not exactly controllable. I worry that we may find break even to be a hard limit.

 

[Lilbaz]

You may be right, I probably am thinking of cold fusion.

Although I thought the underlying problem was the same - that the energy required to cause the fusion was greater than that taken from it, and that the output was not exactly controllable. I worry that we may find break even to be a hard limit.

We know it isn't a hard limit, you only have to look up in the sky. The sun is a fusion reactor that most energy on earth comes from (fossil fuels are dead plants and animals). It has no input. But yes we might not be able to make it work. But if we can it would be huge.

The us had a good test last month with their reactor producing 10 quadrillion watts for a fraction of a second. That is 700 times the entire us grid capacity for any moment. This was 70% of what was put in. If they reach ignition, the reaction would be continuous and self sustaining. With no dangerous byproduct.

 

[scaramanga]

We know it isn't a hard limit, you only have to look up in the sky. The sun is a fusion reactor that most energy on earth comes from (fossil fuels are dead plants and animals). It has no input. But yes we might not be able to make it work. But if we can it would be huge.

The us had a good test last month with their reactor producing 10 quadrillion watts for a fraction of a second. That is 700 times the entire us grid capacity for any moment. This was 70% of what was put in. If they reach ignition, the reaction would be continuous and self sustaining. With no dangerous byproduct.

I get that the Sun is a fusion reactor, but the Sun doesn't require containment - something that I'm sure uses up a huge chunk of energy in itself.

70% is impressive but, given the law of diminishing returns usually applies to this kind of exercise, it's a very, very long way from >100%

And no dangerous by product? In that case, fusion has changed massively since I was last reading about it (not that I'm particularly concerned about that side of things).

 

[Lilbaz]

I get that the Sun is a fusion reactor, but the Sun doesn't require containment - something that I'm sure uses up a huge chunk of energy in itself.

70% is impressive but, given the law of diminishing returns usually applies to this kind of exercise, it's a very, very long way from >100%

And no dangerous by product? In that case, fusion has changed massively since I was last reading about it (not that I'm particularly concerned about that side of things).

Containment is a huge issue but would only take up a fraction of the energy produced. As i said we might not be able to do it but the returns would be huge if we did.

The only by product produced would be helium. Which is inert and harmless.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Containment is a huge issue but would only take up a fraction of the energy produced. As i said we might not be able to do it but the returns would be huge if we did.

The only by product produced would be helium. Which is inert and harmless.

Balloons for everyone.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Lemonade Money]

Electrolysis. We know how to do it. But as there's little demand at the moment few want to invest. Why produce something you can't sell? Also cheaper to procuce it using fossil fuels.

But demand is coming.

Hair today, gone tomorrow.

 

[scaramanga]

Containment is a huge issue but would only take up a fraction of the energy produced. As i said we might not be able to do it but the returns would be huge if we did.

The only by product produced would be helium. Which is inert and harmless.

Are we fusing Hydrogen now? That was another huge issue, I seem to recall.

 

[Rorschach]

Lol it would have lasers.

Bus shaped

 

[Lilbaz]

Are we fusing Hydrogen now? That was another huge issue, I seem to recall.

It's dueterium-tritium (isotopes of hydrogen). Dueterium is abundant, tritium is rare but can be made from lithium.

We'll soon find out ifit's a go. Iter is supposed to be finished 2025. The uks one starts construction 2022.

 

[glasgowspur]

Are you actually interested to find out the answer? Or are you trying to argue because you don't like renewables? If it's the former i will happily answer. If it's the later i would ask why? Forget climste change, renewables will be cheaper than fossil fuels meaning you will save money. Renewables also release less toxins into the air meaning the air will be cleaner and your health will improve. We will be less dependant on other countries for our energy needs. Especially the likes of saudi arabia. No windmill has ever funded terrorism. Or started wars. Unlike oil.

Oh and city wouldn't be able to buy the league.

No i am genuinely interested.
I care not where energy comes from, as long as we have it.
Some of the arguments for alternatives though do seem to hinge on the "they aren't perfect, but we can overcome that", and i find that side of it interesting, although I do wonder how long it will take the technology to catch up with the ideas.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Electrolysis. We know how to do it. But as there's little demand at the moment few want to invest. Why produce something you can't sell? Also cheaper to procuce it using fossil fuels.

But demand is coming.

I always liked cooking on gas. Seeing the level of the flame when cooking - feels natural. But I have used an indication hob (powered by small amounts of electricity and magnets) for the past year and it's excellent. Quick to heat - as fast to boil water as a kettle - easy to clean and doesn't even get hot. Hydrogen for heating may be a better use. There are also heat pumps of course.

 

[Lilbaz]

No i am genuinely interested.
I care not where energy comes from, as long as we have it.
Some of the arguments for alternatives though do seem to hinge on the "they aren't perfect, but we can overcome that", and i find that side of it interesting, although I do wonder how long it will take the technology to catch up with the ideas.

Ok so you had 3 points.

Moving parts wearing out. I take it you are talking of wind turbines. Firstly they are designed not to and are maintained. Obviously they don't last forever though. The uks oldest offshore wind farm was off the coast of blyth. It ran from 2000 till 2019. The old turbines were decommissioned and replaced with larger more efficient turbines. Onshore delaboe has been going since 1991.

How do we judge where it's going to be windy or sunny? Weather reports and surveys since 1835. You have to remember our electricity is connected to european countries. If it's not windy in the uk but is sunny in south of france we can top up with electricty from there, or draw from hydro power in norway, or wind in ireland. We are also investing in various forms of energy storage some that can be stored for centuries. When we have an over abundance we store it. When we need it we use it. This is what the uk is concentrating on now as our storage capacity is low. Also we still get energy from the sun if it's cloudy. Newer solar panels catch much more of the spectrum.

As for making it not being green. Not completely and it won't be till we have fully transitioned to clean energy. Only idiots from extinction rebellion expect this all to be done tomorrow. It is a process that takes time. But we are making strides towards it. Wind and solar on the surface are now cheaper than fossil fuels but energy storage is still expensive, but the price is coming down. Even so the price is competitive.

We are also looking at other types of clean energy such as geothermal. Drill a hole and tap the earths heat. We've been doing it for oil for over 100 years (we actually have a couple of plants in the uk) let alone the 23,000 disused coal mines in the country. No intermittency, no need for storage.
A report for the Renewable Energy Association prepared by the engineering consultants Sinclair Knight Merz in 2012[28] identified the following key findings:

• The resource is widely spread around the UK with 'hotspots' in Cornwall, Weardale, Lake District, East Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, Cheshire, Worcester, Dorset, Hampshire, Northern Ireland and Scotland;
• Cost reduction potential is exceptionally high;
• Deep geothermal resources could provide 9.5GW of baseload renewable electricity – equivalent to nearly nine nuclear power stations – which could generate 20% of the UK's current annual electricity consumption;
• Deep geothermal resources could provide over 100GW of heat, which could supply sufficient heat to meet the space heating demand in the UK;

We already make heat pumps for shallow geothermal energy. That you have in your house instead of a boiler.

There's also biomass and others.

One last thing on energy storage. We have 300,000 evs on the road in the uk now (which will increase massively). More hybrids. Evs are basically battery packs on wheels.
Now we use our cars very rarely, for most of the time they are parked. We also have certain times of the day when energy demand is high. In the morning before we go to work and in the evening when everyones at home watching tv. These are the times cars are parked. The idea is for the cars to charge when demand is low, night time, or day time if there is a lot of solar energy in the country. Then feed back into the grid when demand is high. Owners of the grid will pay the owners of the vehichles for the electricity they use and motorists will get cheaper charging rates from charging when the cost of electricity is low.

Soon we will have millions of ev's, all the storage we need for any short term intermittency problems or fluctuations in demand. At no cost to energy providers or the consumer of energy.

 

[glasgowspur]

Ok so you had 3 points.

Moving parts wearing out. I take it you are talking of wind turbines. Firstly they are designed not to and are maintained. Obviously they don't last forever though. The uks oldest offshore wind farm was off the coast of blyth. It ran from 2000 till 2019. The old turbines were decommissioned and replaced with larger more efficient turbines. Onshore delaboe has been going since 1991.

How do we judge where it's going to be windy or sunny? Weather reports and surveys since 1835. You have to remember our electricity is connected to european countries. If it's not windy in the uk but is sunny in south of france we can top up with electricty from there, or draw from hydro power in norway, or wind in ireland. We are also investing in various forms of energy storage some that can be stored for centuries. When we have an over abundance we store it. When we need it we use it. This is what the uk is concentrating on now as our storage capacity is low. Also we still get energy from the sun if it's cloudy. Newer solar panels catch much more of the spectrum.

As for making it not being green. Not completely and it won't be till we have fully transitioned to clean energy. Only idiots from extinction rebellion expect this all to be done tomorrow. It is a process that takes time. But we are making strides towards it. Wind and solar on the surface are now cheaper than fossil fuels but energy storage is still expensive, but the price is coming down. Even so the price is competitive.

We are also looking at other types of clean energy such as geothermal. Drill a hole and tap the earths heat. We've been doing it for oil for over 100 years (we actually have a couple of plants in the uk) let alone the 23,000 disused coal mines in the country. No intermittency, no need for storage.
A report for the Renewable Energy Association prepared by the engineering consultants Sinclair Knight Merz in 2012[28] identified the following key findings:

• The resource is widely spread around the UK with 'hotspots' in Cornwall, Weardale, Lake District, East Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, Cheshire, Worcester, Dorset, Hampshire, Northern Ireland and Scotland;
• Cost reduction potential is exceptionally high;
• Deep geothermal resources could provide 9.5GW of baseload renewable electricity – equivalent to nearly nine nuclear power stations – which could generate 20% of the UK's current annual electricity consumption;
• Deep geothermal resources could provide over 100GW of heat, which could supply sufficient heat to meet the space heating demand in the UK;

We already make heat pumps for shallow geothermal energy. That you have in your house instead of a boiler.

There's also biomass and others.

One last thing on energy storage. We have 300,000 evs on the road in the uk now (which will increase massively). More hybrids. Evs are basically battery packs on wheels.
Now we use our cars very rarely, for most of the time they are parked. We also have certain times of the day when energy demand is high. In the morning before we go to work and in the evening when everyones at home watching tv. These are the times cars are parked. The idea is for the cars to charge when demand is low, night time, or day time if there is a lot of solar energy in the country. Then feed back into the grid when demand is high. Owners of the grid will pay the owners of the vehichles for the electricity they use and motorists will get cheaper charging rates from charging when the cost of electricity is low.

Soon we will have millions of ev's, all the storage we need for any short term intermittency problems or fluctuations in demand. At no cost to energy providers or the consumer of energy.

That's for taking the time to do that, appreciate it.
Lots of interesting stuff in there. I'm going to go and check out some of it.
Do like a bit of science.

Just to clear something up, bit of a pedant on somethings, the parts wearing out and weather you are replying to were from me replying to another post talking about 115% production. You either need vast areas of farms for that or to be running them full tilt constantly. That will increase the wear out time.

 

[Lilbaz]

That's for taking the time to do that, appreciate it.
Lots of interesting stuff in there. I'm going to go and check out some of it.
Do like a bit of science.

Just to clear something up, bit of a pedant on somethings, the parts wearing out and weather you are replying to were from me replying to another post talking about 115% production. You either need vast areas of farms for that or to be running them full tilt constantly. That will increase the wear out time.

He was just saying we should build more than we need, so if there is a dip, we still have enough. Which is what we'll do. Any excess will be stored. We will not rely on one energy source but will have a mix.
We used to do this with fossil fuels. With lots of storage and peaker plants (that could be fired up when needed). Centrica in it's infinite wisdom closed the uk's biggest gas storage facility (accounting for 70% of the uk stock) in 2017. With world demand for gas and coal being higher than supply and the wind dropping, it left us fudged.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-21/u-k-s-lack-of-gas-plan-leaves-country-at-mercy-of-global-market#:~:text=Centrica Plc, the U.K.'s,the mercy of global markets.