DHSF
Les Ferdinand
Someone thinks theyre arguing against the anti - Harry revisionism whilst someone else thinks theyre arguing the pro - Harry revisionism
circles going round all of us
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AVB & Spurs Tactics and Formations discussion thread
- Thread starter BAE
- Start date
Someone thinks theyre arguing against the anti - Harry revisionism whilst someone else thinks theyre arguing the pro - Harry revisionism
circles going round all of us
DHSF
Les Ferdinand
Ahh sarcasm. What? that people may not have wanted AVB as Manager in the first instance?
As someone (dont know who) once said "You can please some of the people all of the time, or all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time".
No, no, no....not sarcasm! Just me writing an equally undecipherable sentence, I'm afraid. I meant to say, "I got the first sentence".
DHSF
Les Ferdinand
I meant that some people didnt want AVB in the first instance so thats why some are against AVB. Some also didnt see the need to change things from the Harry era just a few tweaks here and there and thats why some are pro Harry and hence may seem anti AVB (although theyre not anti AVB but it just comes across that way)
thfcsteff
George Hunt
Nobody's 'raving' simply observing. There is a difference. I'm intrigued that you and Joey haven't had a debate about playing style. Joey feels it's 'business as usual a la last year' you believe there's been change. Come on chaps, you're allowed to debate each other! :lol:
thfcsteff
George Hunt
I absolutely believe you're right, there are people who believe that. Fair play. I think the issue is that what's happened has happened, we won again today, but people aren't having it and continue to pick holes in this bloke despite all the contexts offered. It's bizarre. I don't get it. I mean, it's happened! Whether people like it or not, this is a new manager and a new outlook. I can see that comparisons will happen from time to time, I suppose that's human nature to an extent, but you would have to agree mate, it does get a bit silly. I mean, he's here. So effectively, even if someone didn't want him here, he is here. So there's a clear choice IMO. Get over it and support the team (if only for a healthier more positive life) or give the club a miss until you see a man you want to be in charge. When GGG came in, I went into mourning, couldn't fudging STAND the bloke, but as the-then manager of Tottenham Hotspur, he got my support. That's what supporting a football team is about IMO. You stand behind the team. And if you support your team long enough, that will make everyone a hypocrite at one time or another OR it will make them the sort of 'supporter' that doesn't actually support!
Let's face it, no-one here has loved every player Spurs have ever signed let alone every manager. Yet we manage to find a way to get behind them. Gallas and Ade are two fine cases in point; most people couldn't stand them simply because they were gooners, but we all found a way to 'love' them...as you should! Ive often joked that those two signings made a yogi out of me so far did I bend to accommodate them!!!!
What is our best side?
I think one of the reasons for the dull football is that we desperately need a passer in the midfield. The only midfielders who were good to excellent passers were modric, huddlestone and VDV. We now only have huddlestone and i think, even though he lacks athleticism, that he should play more often, even starting:
So this is my starting eleven (when everyone is fit):
I think huddlestone would give us that extra creativity in midfield, and those balls over the top or quick balls to the wingers that we desperately need. Dembele siggurdsson and sandro are atletic but too static in their passing imo, i think dembele would probably be best in an attacking MF position. However, i think especially against weaker sides at home we should go for dempsey behind adebayor, so that gives bale, dempsey and adebayor as goalscorers in our team. Huddlestone and dembele would give us the creativity plus solidity (we don't need sandro at home against the weaker teams). I seem to recall that our best football was also when we had modric and parker. With modric and sandro we were less creative so this might be contraversial but i would prefer parker in front of sandro when he returns, and partner him with either dembele or hudd for harder games.
Your thoughts?
I think one of the reasons for the dull football is that we desperately need a passer in the midfield. The only midfielders who were good to excellent passers were modric, huddlestone and VDV. We now only have huddlestone and i think, even though he lacks athleticism, that he should play more often, even starting:
So this is my starting eleven (when everyone is fit):
Adebayor
Bale Dempsey Lennon
Huddlestone Dembele
BAE Vertonghen Caulker Walker
Lloris/Friedal
Bale Dempsey Lennon
Huddlestone Dembele
BAE Vertonghen Caulker Walker
Lloris/Friedal
I think huddlestone would give us that extra creativity in midfield, and those balls over the top or quick balls to the wingers that we desperately need. Dembele siggurdsson and sandro are atletic but too static in their passing imo, i think dembele would probably be best in an attacking MF position. However, i think especially against weaker sides at home we should go for dempsey behind adebayor, so that gives bale, dempsey and adebayor as goalscorers in our team. Huddlestone and dembele would give us the creativity plus solidity (we don't need sandro at home against the weaker teams). I seem to recall that our best football was also when we had modric and parker. With modric and sandro we were less creative so this might be contraversial but i would prefer parker in front of sandro when he returns, and partner him with either dembele or hudd for harder games.
Your thoughts?
ArnieArdiles
Milenko Acimovic
Thow-ins...
It's something I've noticed under AVB and it were also going on with Harry too, our short throw-ins are almost non existent. We must not be predictable in our play with this constant long throw-in down the line tactic as this is not helping us when retention of the ball is most required.
It's something I've noticed under AVB and it were also going on with Harry too, our short throw-ins are almost non existent. We must not be predictable in our play with this constant long throw-in down the line tactic as this is not helping us when retention of the ball is most required.
glorygloryeze
Tom Huddlestone
I wonder if people think we won the game on Saturday based on tactics employed in the first half and then being EXTREMELY LUCKY in the second half.
If so, what should we have done to make the result easier on all our hearts?
If so, what should we have done to make the result easier on all our hearts?
Mumorn
Vic Buckingham
Spursalot
Jimmy McCormick
Re: What is our best side?
Agreed. Even when Parker is fit it should currently be Sandro's place to lose.
Agreed. Even when Parker is fit it should currently be Sandro's place to lose.
This weekend sees Andre Villas-Boas’ first game against Chelsea since his sacking earlier this year – and a meeting with Roberto Di Matteo, his former assistant. But how similar is Villas-Boas’ Tottenham side to the team he managed at Stamford Bridge?
Spurs’ most recent game was at home to Aston Villa, a fixture Villas-Boas also encountered as Chelsea coach – although whereas he won 2-0 a fortnight ago, he suffered a humiliating 3-1 defeat last season. Still, the two games are useful by way of comparison, to study the similarities and differences between Villas-Boas’ two teams.
Pressing
This was arguably the most obvious feature of Villas-Boas’ strategy at Stamford Bridge – he favoured closing down in midfield and a high defensive line that didn’t suit Chelsea’s centre-backs. The forwards were instructed to push up and prevent the opposition from passing out of the back, and weren’t given any defensive responsibilities in deeper positions.
While the approach was broadly unsuccessful, leaving Chelsea prone to passes played in behind their defence, they were effective at winning balls high up the pitch in the opposition half – which is shown by how frequently they won possession near the centre circle against Villa. Tottenham’s approach this season is similar, yet a little more reserved.
Crossing
In theory Villas-Boas’ Tottenham are very different to Villas-Boas’ Chelsea – last season he fielded Juan Mata on the left, coming inside into central playmaking positions, and Daniel Sturridge on the right, cutting onto his stronger left foot. Chelsea started as a 4-3-3, but sometimes ended up looking like a narrow 4-3-1-2.
Now, the Portuguese coach can call on two natural wingers – Aaron Lennon and Gareth Bale. They’re much more likely to cross the ball, but in these two games Villas-Boas’ sides crossed the ball a similar number of times – and had similarly ineffective results.
Forward play
This is a clear difference – Didier Drogba received plenty of straight passes, making Chelsea’s attacks flow quickly towards goal, while Jermain Defoe only receives the ball from wider positions.
This illustrates not merely the two strikers’ separate qualities, but also the aforementioned contrast in terms of width – Chelsea tended to funnel things through the centre, while Tottenham are obliged to spread the play towards the touchlines.
Holding midfielder
Arguably the key player in Villas-Boas’ systems – he dropped Mikel in favour of Oriel Romeu midway through his tenure at Chelsea, and the Spaniard played a very solid, disciplined defensive midfield role, rarely straying from the centre circle.
Sandro is given more licence to switch positions with Spurs’ other midfielders, and consequently gets into more advanced positions. His passing is also more ambitious, but it’s worth noting that both complete a lot of interceptions, rather than winning the ball through tackling.
Goalkeeper distribution
This is something else that went wrong at Chelsea – Petr Cech was accustomed to thumping long balls forward towards Didier Drogba, but Villas-Boas ordered him to play short passes into the centre-backs or the holding midfielder dropping deep. Chelsea dominated possession but conceded cheap goals on a couple of occasions – at home to Liverpool, for example, when a short pass towards Jon Obi Mikel resulted in Charlie Adam nicking the ball and Maxi Rodriguez scoring the opener in a 2-1 away win.
Hugo Lloris is more suited to passing football than Brad Friedel, but against Villa it was noticeable that he hit long balls towards the left, for Gareth Bale to challenge for. It will be interesting to see if this strategy continues this weekend, when Bale will be up against Branislav Ivanovic, a fine player in the air.
http://fourfourtwo.com/blogs/statszone/archive/2012/10/19/lessons-learned-or-horses-for-courses-avb-at-chelsea-and-spurs.aspx
Spurs’ most recent game was at home to Aston Villa, a fixture Villas-Boas also encountered as Chelsea coach – although whereas he won 2-0 a fortnight ago, he suffered a humiliating 3-1 defeat last season. Still, the two games are useful by way of comparison, to study the similarities and differences between Villas-Boas’ two teams.
Pressing
This was arguably the most obvious feature of Villas-Boas’ strategy at Stamford Bridge – he favoured closing down in midfield and a high defensive line that didn’t suit Chelsea’s centre-backs. The forwards were instructed to push up and prevent the opposition from passing out of the back, and weren’t given any defensive responsibilities in deeper positions.
While the approach was broadly unsuccessful, leaving Chelsea prone to passes played in behind their defence, they were effective at winning balls high up the pitch in the opposition half – which is shown by how frequently they won possession near the centre circle against Villa. Tottenham’s approach this season is similar, yet a little more reserved.
Crossing
In theory Villas-Boas’ Tottenham are very different to Villas-Boas’ Chelsea – last season he fielded Juan Mata on the left, coming inside into central playmaking positions, and Daniel Sturridge on the right, cutting onto his stronger left foot. Chelsea started as a 4-3-3, but sometimes ended up looking like a narrow 4-3-1-2.
Now, the Portuguese coach can call on two natural wingers – Aaron Lennon and Gareth Bale. They’re much more likely to cross the ball, but in these two games Villas-Boas’ sides crossed the ball a similar number of times – and had similarly ineffective results.
Forward play
This is a clear difference – Didier Drogba received plenty of straight passes, making Chelsea’s attacks flow quickly towards goal, while Jermain Defoe only receives the ball from wider positions.
This illustrates not merely the two strikers’ separate qualities, but also the aforementioned contrast in terms of width – Chelsea tended to funnel things through the centre, while Tottenham are obliged to spread the play towards the touchlines.
Holding midfielder
Arguably the key player in Villas-Boas’ systems – he dropped Mikel in favour of Oriel Romeu midway through his tenure at Chelsea, and the Spaniard played a very solid, disciplined defensive midfield role, rarely straying from the centre circle.
Sandro is given more licence to switch positions with Spurs’ other midfielders, and consequently gets into more advanced positions. His passing is also more ambitious, but it’s worth noting that both complete a lot of interceptions, rather than winning the ball through tackling.
Goalkeeper distribution
This is something else that went wrong at Chelsea – Petr Cech was accustomed to thumping long balls forward towards Didier Drogba, but Villas-Boas ordered him to play short passes into the centre-backs or the holding midfielder dropping deep. Chelsea dominated possession but conceded cheap goals on a couple of occasions – at home to Liverpool, for example, when a short pass towards Jon Obi Mikel resulted in Charlie Adam nicking the ball and Maxi Rodriguez scoring the opener in a 2-1 away win.
Hugo Lloris is more suited to passing football than Brad Friedel, but against Villa it was noticeable that he hit long balls towards the left, for Gareth Bale to challenge for. It will be interesting to see if this strategy continues this weekend, when Bale will be up against Branislav Ivanovic, a fine player in the air.
http://fourfourtwo.com/blogs/statszone/archive/2012/10/19/lessons-learned-or-horses-for-courses-avb-at-chelsea-and-spurs.aspx
Spursalot
Jimmy McCormick
The way i see it this has been bleeding into quite a few other threads so may as well have it's own.
People have been talking about switching to 4-3-3 or not and here would be my take on it.
Winger - - - Striker - - - Inside Forward
Playmaker - Destroyer - Box to Box
I have the inside forward slot on the right, but feel free to put it on the left if you would prefer. I have it on the right because in my view it's obvious who our inside forward would be. Bale. He'll get more goals coming in from the right as he would be taking more opportunities with his left foot as he comes across the pitch. With an able backup in Townsend.
This leaves us with an issue though. First it means Lennon would become surplus to requirements, secondly it means our Winger positions is up for grabs. We don't have a chalk on boots left Winger that can backup for Bale. and he would also need a backup. Though i suppose you could have Townsend as backup for both sides as he could fulfil both requirements.
Striker. Yeah nothing to be said here. We need one. Or two. I'd go with two. Plus a player who could play across the front three positions if we can find one. Versatility is a much needed quality to have a successful squad.
Destroyer. Simple. Sandro with Parker as backup. I am not the greatest advocate of Parker, however there are more important things to sort out if we are to shift our focus to a 4-3-3.
Box-Box. I don't exactly mean a classical box-box. In my view this position will be filled by Dembele in the more challenging games. The ones where we need that extra bit of defensive steel, but with the ability to quicly turn offensive into defence with his mazy runs. Against the lower quality teams i would add Sigurdsson. As we will need a greater goal threat and Sandro should have an easier time defensively.
Ball playing mid. We need a first choice. I would be more then willing to put Carroll as the backup, he has shown a decent ability and would be given more freedom in a three man midfield.
Add to that Jake Livermore. I know he's not the best of players, but as third choice for all three spots he would be a decent cover option to have around. His heart is in Spurs and i don't think many teams would have a 3rd place backup any better.
All in all i think we are after the following this summer. Left chalk on boots winger, Striker 1, Striker 2, Front three versatile and ball playing mid.
That's five players. Quite an ask. You could probably drop one of the Strikers and decide to keep Ade/Defoe. Though four players of the quality we'd need is still a large ask, especially when i would consider three of them would need to be first team quality.
Plus i have no idea where Holtby would fit into all this. Not quite seen enough of him yet.
Thoughts?
People have been talking about switching to 4-3-3 or not and here would be my take on it.
Winger - - - Striker - - - Inside Forward
Playmaker - Destroyer - Box to Box
I have the inside forward slot on the right, but feel free to put it on the left if you would prefer. I have it on the right because in my view it's obvious who our inside forward would be. Bale. He'll get more goals coming in from the right as he would be taking more opportunities with his left foot as he comes across the pitch. With an able backup in Townsend.
This leaves us with an issue though. First it means Lennon would become surplus to requirements, secondly it means our Winger positions is up for grabs. We don't have a chalk on boots left Winger that can backup for Bale. and he would also need a backup. Though i suppose you could have Townsend as backup for both sides as he could fulfil both requirements.
Striker. Yeah nothing to be said here. We need one. Or two. I'd go with two. Plus a player who could play across the front three positions if we can find one. Versatility is a much needed quality to have a successful squad.
Destroyer. Simple. Sandro with Parker as backup. I am not the greatest advocate of Parker, however there are more important things to sort out if we are to shift our focus to a 4-3-3.
Box-Box. I don't exactly mean a classical box-box. In my view this position will be filled by Dembele in the more challenging games. The ones where we need that extra bit of defensive steel, but with the ability to quicly turn offensive into defence with his mazy runs. Against the lower quality teams i would add Sigurdsson. As we will need a greater goal threat and Sandro should have an easier time defensively.
Ball playing mid. We need a first choice. I would be more then willing to put Carroll as the backup, he has shown a decent ability and would be given more freedom in a three man midfield.
Add to that Jake Livermore. I know he's not the best of players, but as third choice for all three spots he would be a decent cover option to have around. His heart is in Spurs and i don't think many teams would have a 3rd place backup any better.
All in all i think we are after the following this summer. Left chalk on boots winger, Striker 1, Striker 2, Front three versatile and ball playing mid.
That's five players. Quite an ask. You could probably drop one of the Strikers and decide to keep Ade/Defoe. Though four players of the quality we'd need is still a large ask, especially when i would consider three of them would need to be first team quality.
Plus i have no idea where Holtby would fit into all this. Not quite seen enough of him yet.
Thoughts?
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thejazzman
Jason Cundy
Holtby's probably a better alternative than Siggurdson as the box to box. He's said he sees himself as a "number 6"
Ever since we have been first linked with AVB, all I have heard is 4-3-3, yet nothing indicates he is stuck on that.
If we look at Spurs, the success of the last few years have been built around
Back 4 - Kind of set, Gallas will probably leave in Summer, but we will get back Kaboul, could see us buying a new LB as AVB doesn't seem sold on Benny
Midfield - Center 2, Dembele/Sandro (Parker as cover for Sandro), wide 2 (Bale/Lennon), could see us going after a Moutinho type creative player, and some wide cover
Front 2 - Either 2 up front ala Ade/JD or 1 in the hole ala Duece (or what VDV and now sometimes Bale does), probably the must buy position, outright striker needed.
4-5-1 is probably the main Spurs formation (some variation), haven't really seen anything that shows AVB is going to force that into a 4-3-3, not as tactically astute as some folks on this board but it seems to me Spurs is at it's best when we are very difficult to get through in our middle (Dembele/Sandro) and hurt our opponents with width and pace (Lennon/Bale), not sure how that ever translates into 4-3-3
If we look at Spurs, the success of the last few years have been built around
Back 4 - Kind of set, Gallas will probably leave in Summer, but we will get back Kaboul, could see us buying a new LB as AVB doesn't seem sold on Benny
Midfield - Center 2, Dembele/Sandro (Parker as cover for Sandro), wide 2 (Bale/Lennon), could see us going after a Moutinho type creative player, and some wide cover
Front 2 - Either 2 up front ala Ade/JD or 1 in the hole ala Duece (or what VDV and now sometimes Bale does), probably the must buy position, outright striker needed.
4-5-1 is probably the main Spurs formation (some variation), haven't really seen anything that shows AVB is going to force that into a 4-3-3, not as tactically astute as some folks on this board but it seems to me Spurs is at it's best when we are very difficult to get through in our middle (Dembele/Sandro) and hurt our opponents with width and pace (Lennon/Bale), not sure how that ever translates into 4-3-3
He said last summer before the season started that 4-3-3 was his preferred formation however that we were unlikely to play that way at the start of his reign given that the players were used to 4-4-1-1 and you need to somewhat pick the formation which suits the players which you have.
Spursalot
Jimmy McCormick
The back four is set perfectly for a 4-3-3 though. You need a pacey attacking full back to overlap the inside forward. If we're going for Bale on the right, than Walker is a pacey attacking full back.
The midfield, lots of people want us to sign a creative mid, however our strongest midfield pairing this season was Sandro Dembele. When together they were the best in the league and i don't want to break that partnership up, which is why three in the middle adds needed creativity without weakening our defensive resolve.
Spurs seem at their best using that pace, however it became far too easy for opposition sides to shut us down by dropping deep. Then we have no ability to get past them. We haven't been that much of a pacey side this season at all, we haven't counter-attacked nearly as much and we have had a far more possession based game.
In all honesty i'm not sure if the switch to 4-3-3 will or should occur. We almost have the players for it however, so it is worthy of discussion.
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thejazzman
Jason Cundy
the differences in 4-3-3 and 4-5-1 etc are just in style and player types. i think what people are anticipating is that AVB will be looking to sign the sort of players that he likes, and those players would presumably make it more 4-3-3 than 4-5-1 e.g Bale would play further forward than he would in harry's 4-4-1-1; having sandro, dembele and , for examples sake, moutinho would probably mean a rotating 3 in the centre. the main difference between all of them is the type of "1" that plays behind a striker.