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AVB & Spurs Tactics and Formations discussion thread

Re: Hugo Lloris

If anything AVB is displaying too much loyalty to those in possession e.g. continuing to pick Defoe and Livermore over Ade and Dembele. It's an admirable sentiment (easing the new boys in and demonstrably making them earn their shirts), but it's frustrating that we're not playing our strongest team.

[REMOVED] I would phase him out over the next 3 or 4 games, because we need a keeper who can get outside of the 6 yard box.

Ade hadn't had a proper pre-season and didn't look anywhere near match fit.

I was hoping for Dembele, but he had only been with the team for a couple of days.

Both understandable decisions rationally even if you don't agree with them without invoking some uncalled for sense of loyalty towards players he's been managing for all of 2 months.

Either way I think most footballers that aren't idiots or burned out keep playing for as long as they can as long as they can play for a top 4-5 team in the Premiership or another big league. Why would he retire as long as he's good enough, makes no sense.
 
Re: Hugo Lloris

442 more like. VDV going off gave them the initiative and we never got it back

Indeed, but at Newcash, we hit the woodwork twice and created 2 sitters without VdV on the pitch. Don't get me wrong, he is a big loss (until we get Dembele/Sigurdsson working) but I think overall, confidence got a massive kick in the teeth, add some nerves and, indeed, some nervous actions from the coach. We just need a win. Then I think they'll flow...
 
Re: Hugo Lloris

What shape were we in with those shots at Saudi Sportswashing Machine.

Didnt watch the game, but we started 451 with Sigurdsson in the VDV role, so it thats when we did well perhaps 442 became the issue again.
 
Re: Hugo Lloris

he was ? i'd debate that....towards the end of the season king faltered but early on the man was the best of the best. long live the King.

who did kaboul play next to for most of the season then? its funny but we had bassong who was fringe...gallas and king and dawson who are all injury prone, nelsen who was a squadie...who did kaboul play next o frequently?

Going off topic because this is a Lloris thread, but I thought Kaboul last season was very poor. He has all the equipment to be a great defender but like Walker and Ekotto he'll never be anything more than average because he just doesn't have a good footballing brain. Way too many mental blunders. Last season we dominated possession equating to less chances for the defence to fudge up. This year, the defence will be under more pressure and more expected of them. It won't take AVB long to suss that Kaboul simply isn't up to the job. Glad to see the reports today that Dawson may be coming back.
 
Re: Hugo Lloris

you know what, i'm just glad that in my life time i experienced the years of Jol and Harry ......, could be a veeeeeeery long time before we reach those heights and expectations again..especially with the way the league is turning out

It'll come again, maybe even under AVB further down the line. I am distressed at the rapid speed in which he has tried to change things (needlessly IMO), and I am upset at the fact we tactically look clueless, unbalanced and worst of all aren't playing attractive football BUT it is only three matches! It took Fergie years and who knows maybe AVB is our man. But Levy has to give him time AND back him.

What winds me up is that many of those having a go at posters for NOT giving AVB a chance are the same posters who haven't given previous managers a chance. Gotta love double standards.
 
Re: Hugo Lloris

Ha...totally agreed. If the players, after a full pre-season, were looking at utterly clueless as they did against Norwich, I can't see it improving any time soon. I will just expect next season to be the one...which as you say we will probably have lost more key players. I just really hope we give AVB time. Even if this season is a total nightmare and we finish 10th, I would want him to stay, because the progress we would have made would hopefully stand us in good stead for the next year. But if the season is that bad, he will be gone. But I simply can't see how we will improve to the level we need to get to after the absolutely shocking Norwich game, to put up any sort of competitive performance throughout the season.

But then, it makes me think. At Saudi Sportswashing Machine it was actually a very good performance. First half against West Brom was a very good, intelligent performance. What happened? Something happened from the half time point at West Brom, which made the players completely lose themselves. Against West Brom, they needed to keep the ball, take the sting out of the game and stop WBA getting it, but they just didn't. Against Norwich..they didn't do anything. What went wrong? Why were we so good at Saudi Sportswashing Machine compared to now?

Think it's mentally easier to keep a rigid shape and be patient and intelligent away from home, 2nd game the home crowd meant we a bit still stuck in the gung ho mentality and 3rd game was one of those games where for some reason everyone has an off day and coupled with the anxiety of the players wanting to get that first win....probably?
 
Re: Hugo Lloris

Think it's mentally easier to keep a rigid shape and be patient and intelligent away from home, 2nd game the home crowd meant we a bit still stuck in the gung ho mentality and 3rd game was one of those games where for some reason everyone has an off day and coupled with the anxiety of the players wanting to get that first win....probably?

I agree with you.

I'm certainly not expecting some kind of linear progression that moves us from the start of the season to the end of it improving one little bit each game. There's bound to be ups and downs in performance especially now in the beginning.

We're only 3 games.

I do think the players are getting a little bit nervous, or short on confidence. 3 games without a win has pretty much done that as far as I can remember. Maybe we need a fluky goal to go in at a good time or a slightly lucky win in a game just to get going and get confidence back in the side. But then again, maybe we just need to wait for the next game and things will work out better. Point is, still very early days and way to early to start judging.
 
Re: Hugo Lloris

What winds me up is that many of those having a go at posters for NOT giving AVB a chance are the same posters who haven't given previous managers a chance. Gotta love double standards.

:ross: Relentless.

Whether you agree with them or not those that wanted Harry out had 4 years to form their judgement.

Very VERY few didnt give him a chance from the word go. Most that I can see decided over time he wasnt the man for the job, they didnt make a snap judgement after 3 games.
 
http://thinkfootball.co.uk/tactical-analysis-how-have-spurs-set-up-under-avb-so-far/

Tactical Analysis: How have Spurs set up under AVB so far?
By Jake Meador

For the past two years, Spurs have favored a 4-4-1-1 attack that used the creativity of Luka Modric and Rafa Van der Vaart in central roles and the pace of Gareth Bale and Aaron Lennon in wide roles to create scoring chances. For all their creative guile and pace, however, those Spurs’ sides often amounted to little more than counter-attacking teams. True, they played the most attractive counter-attacking football in England, but that’s all they did. When Spurs played a team that would play positive and try to win, Spurs would often tear them to ribbons. But when they played a defensive minded team that would play for the draw, Spurs couldn’t break them down and became vulnerable to the counter themselves. Hence their awful record in 2010/11 against bottom half sides and their late season swoon last year. Spurs could fly high, but that was all they could do. They couldn’t grind out wins consistently and they couldn’t get late game equalizers or winners because they couldn’t break down sides that played for the draw or tried a quick smash and grab. In fact, the only time they ever were able to grind out wins during the Redknapp era was during the first half of the 11/12 campaign when a revitalized Ledley King led the defense and a fully-fit Scott Parker prowled midfield. Once King’s form nosedived – which coincided with the late-game penalty he gave away at Emirates Marketing Project – and Parker started struggling with injuries, Spurs reverted to their 10/11 form.

These are the things that must be kept in mind in light of Andre Villas Boas’ massive overhaul of the side. Many neutrals have looked in shock at the creative destruction of the past months and asked “Why would you completely dissemble a team that only nine months ago looked prime for a title challenge?” But that question betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of Spurs. Going into last season, Spurs were widely expected to struggle for 5th behind their London rivals. They were considered a top 6 club, but not a bona fide top 4. And after their two early season pastings at the hands of the Manchester sides, that suspicion seemed justified amongst the rest of the league. So teams came at Spurs thinking they could win the full three points. Which, as explained above, amounted to a form of suicide. Attacking Tottenham meant giving Modric and Van der Vaart room to create and Bale and Lennon room to run. Given the talent of those players, it’s no surprise that Spurs looked like title contenders last December. But last year’s Spurs team was never as good as their early season scintillating form suggested. Rather, they were the beneficiaries of other teams adopting the worst possible strategy to stop them. So last year’s side finished about where they should have in the table. They were a top 4 side, but never a top 2 and certainly not a side able to compete this season with a reinvigorated Chelsea, something which was true even before Modric’s departure and even more so after.

The conservative change, of course, would be rather simple: Play a 4-2-3-1 with Parker and Sandro in holding roles and some combination of Bale, Lennon, Van der Vaart, or Sigurddson in the three advanced roles supporting Adebayor. But the first three matches demonstrated the problems with this approach. With two holding mids in a midfield tandem with three advanced creators in front of them, Spurs become utterly bereft of creativity. Whenever the ball goes into midfield, there’s never any doubt where it will go: either Assou-Ekotto or Walker making a run out wide or the shortest, safest pass to one of the three advanced creators (or Adebayor if he comes deep). The result is a very predictable, methodical offensive attack that depends almost entirely upon Bale and Lennon using their pace to get to the edge and cross the ball to the middle.

Look at these heat maps from Parker and Sandro’s performance when they played together as a midfield two last season. Combined, they had 11 touches in the attacking half. And that was in a late season match with QPR where Spurs had to have the full three points and were playing from behind from the 24th minute till the end. Even in such desperate circumstances, Sandro and Parker seldom crossed midfield.

This also means that Van der Vaart was often starved for service. Van der Vaart is a fantastic player but also a frustrating one. Generally, because of his lack of strength and pace, the more touches he takes at one time, the less effective he is. He needs to get the ball in a more advanced central role and then take one or two touches before making his move, whether that’s taking a shot on goal (as in his fantastic goal at Euro 2012) or picking out a pass to one of his fellow attackers (as he often did in his fine link up play with Peter Crouch in his first season at White Hart Lane). But Modric was essential for getting that sort of service to Van der Vaart. Modric created the space Rafa needed with his own jinking runs and, more often than not, was the player to pick out Van der Vaart with a pass. Revisit Van der Vaart’s goal against Inter in the Champions League. Van der Vaart got the plaudits but there were maybe three players in the world who could’ve made the run and pass that Modric made to create that goal. With Modric off and two sturdy but utterly uncreative players in midfield, Rafa becomes far less effective. Consider the contrast in heat maps between his final match at Spurs with Sandro and Livermore in midfield and one of his finest hours with Spurs, the late season 2-0 win over Liverpool during the 10/11 campaign with Modric in midfield.

Against West Brom playing without Modric, Van der Vaart received the ball 11 times in the attacking half. Against Liverpool, Modric was in the squad and in only 53 minutes of play, Van der Vaart received it 28 times in the attacking half. Put another way: Against West Brom 28% of Rafa’s first touches were in the attacking half. Against Liverpool 84% of Van der Vaart’s first touches came in the attacking half.

In short, Modric cannot be replaced by simply adopting a sturdier 4-2-3-1 formation with Bale, Rafa and Lennon across the front three and two defensive midfielders controlling the center of the park. The whole attacking philosophy has to be reimagined to compensate for the loss of the Croatian regista. If it isn’t, Spurs attack will become too predictable, their advanced creators will be marginalized and Spurs will struggle mightily for goals. That is why Van der Vaart suddenly became expendable, despite being Spurs’ best creative talent in a side lacking in creativity. When Hamburg came in with a bid two million higher than what we paid for him two years before… how do you turn that down? Especially given his legendary status at the club, where he’s loved as much as he is at White Hart Lane and given that his wife works as a TV presenter in Hamburg. Even without signing another player, that’s good business.

In the next article, I will explain how the new arrivals of Gylffi Sigurddson, Clint Dempsey, and Moussa Dembele can help reshape Spurs attack. And why losing Van der Vaart may not be the end of the world after all.
 
Great find GB. Looking forward to hearing what he says about Dembele. Hoping that he can be the missing piece we need.
 
Re: Hugo Lloris

I agree with you.

I'm certainly not expecting some kind of linear progression that moves us from the start of the season to the end of it improving one little bit each game. There's bound to be ups and downs in performance especially now in the beginning.

We're only 3 games.

I do think the players are getting a little bit nervous, or short on confidence. 3 games without a win has pretty much done that as far as I can remember. Maybe we need a fluky goal to go in at a good time or a slightly lucky win in a game just to get going and get confidence back in the side. But then again, maybe we just need to wait for the next game and things will work out better. Point is, still very early days and way to early to start judging.

The flukey goal would be Benny's vs West Brom, but it seemed like that only made things worse.

I think maybe it is confidence, but it seems more like a tactical issue, with the players trying the wrong things considering how they are set up and positioned on the pitch. They aren't patient enough, they aren't moving intelligently, they aren't playing the right passes. Against Norwich they could barely complete the simple task of getting the ball down and stringing 2 passes together if Norwich put the slightest bit of pressure on us. It was bizarre.
 
Re: Hugo Lloris

on the other hand i thought we played well for long spells against Saudi Sportswashing Machine and wba.
we could have easily won those had we managed to put in two before the opposition struck back.

lets also not forget that we could not put on a worse first eleven for the Norwich game, which had no creativity in attack.
 
Re: Hugo Lloris

on the other hand i thought we played well for long spells against Saudi Sportswashing Machine and wba.
we could have easily won those had we managed to put in two before the opposition struck back.

lets also not forget that we could not put on a worse first eleven for the Norwich game, which had no creativity in attack.

I was at the WBA game and I didn't think we played that well. We dominated possession in the first half, without really threatening. The only times we've looked remotely cutting so far is when we've switched to 4-4-2. Will AVB see that or persist with 4-5-1?
 
Re: Hugo Lloris

Perhaps AVB has seen that and brought in players to make the starting formation work better.

So far it has worked well in dominating possession, perhaps Adebayor (getting fit), Dembele and Dempsey can help turn domination into goals.
 
Re: Hugo Lloris

I was at the WBA game and I didn't think we played that well. We dominated possession in the first half, without really threatening. The only times we've looked remotely cutting so far is when we've switched to 4-4-2. Will AVB see that or persist with 4-5-1?

If our players could finish better we would have threatened far more - we created good opportunities in that first half and it was 4-4-2 that conceded the midfield to them. I was then concerned that even after he went back to 4-2-3-1 the players seemed unable to keep possession, they looked so nervous and didn't know what they were doing.

And that's what bothers me. I understand confidence and nervousness can effect anyone, even ultra confident footballers, but does it really need to be on the scale we are seeing? Has it plummeted so much in the space of 3 games that we are now officially in 'bad form' and have to wait for that lucky win? I thought having a system was meant to give us something to fall back on, so even if our players lacked confidence we didn't have to shrug our shoulders and not worry because all it would take was for confidence to come back.

What is the point of a system if confidence can have just as much of an effect on our player's ability to play well when they use it?
 
Re: Hugo Lloris

I think the issue is having confidence (faith even) in the system/way the team plays.

They need to buy into it, understand it will eventually (in the context of 90 minutes) come good and so not get nervous/panic/start second guessing.

Rodgers talking about his efforts at Swansea was always at pains to express it was only successfull because the players bought into it. And they played the same way when they were winning, losing, 5 minutes into a game, 5 minutes into extra time...

A result or two and that faith will come, IMO. Had we got the goals we deserved first half against WBA, when that system was dominating completely I think we wouldnt have broken down so severely at the end of the game because we would have kept faith in what we were doing knowing full well it could work.
 
Re: Hugo Lloris

I think the issue is having confidence (faith even) in the system/way the team plays.

They need to buy into it, understand it will eventually (in the context of 90 minutes) come good and so not get nervous/panic/start second guessing.

Rodgers talking about his efforts at Swansea was always at pains to express it was only successfull because the players bought into it. And they played the same way when they were winning, losing, 5 minutes into a game, 5 minutes into extra time...

A result or two and that faith will come, IMO. Had we got the goals we deserved first half against WBA, when that system was dominating completely I think we wouldnt have broken down so severely at the end of the game because we would have kept faith in what we were doing knowing full well it could work.

Trouble is, I'm not sure AVB has bought into the system! The fact that he set up to play the 4-2-3-1, after a just a half switches to 4-4-2 instead of a straight Defoe/Ade swap, and then switches back again is odd. Why do that? The players will see we did better as a 4-4-2, and that AVB is willing to swtich back and forth, without apparent reason. Unless he has explained to the players exactly why he is making these decisions they will lose faith in the manager and the 4-2-3-1 system.

To me it looked as if AVB had decided before the game to go 4-2-3-1 then 4-4-2 (and maybe even back to 4-2-3-1) at a specific time in the match, regardless of other circumstances. Managing by numbers. As a manager I used to do something similar, and my players slated me for it -despite my explanation - so I stopped doing it, and team performance improved dramatically.
 
Re: Hugo Lloris

I dont understand his subs at all. I can only hope fitness issues informed them and not the idea that 442 with Sandro and Livermore in CM is a good one. I

he has consistently started 4231 though, we have played it significantly more than 442. So my guess is thats 'the plan'. Perhaps 442 is just to try and open the game up so we can exploit a different dynamic?
 
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