AVB & Spurs Tactics and Formations discussion thread

[africanspurs]

Re: Hugo Lloris

I wonder how many managers have taken on teams, tried to change things and got sacked before they could finish the process and reap the benefits because chairmen and fans lost their nerve.

Theres no actual answer of course, but I bet there are numerous posibilities out there.

I dont care how good a player is supposed to be, change takes time. They work so much on instinct that to make them stop, think and act on new instructions is going to mean varied levels of performance and some time before the new expectations become instinct.

Some adapt quicker than others. Sometimes it doesnt take time at all because the new ideas are relatively close to the old ones. Sometimes its a pretty rough ride while it all works out.

I dont see 3 games as long enough to indicate how successful, or not, this process will be. And I think its pretty foolish of some to be so fretful right now.

I wonder how many managers have taken on teams, tried to change things and got sacked before they could finish the process and reap the benefits because chairmen and fans lost their nerve.

Theres no actual answer of course, but I bet there are numerous posibilities out there.

I dont care how good a player is supposed to be, change takes time. They work so much on instinct that to make them stop, think and act on new instructions is going to mean varied levels of performance and some time before the new expectations become instinct.

Some adapt quicker than others. Sometimes it doesnt take time at all because the new ideas are relatively close to the old ones. Sometimes its a pretty rough ride while it all works out.

I dont see 3 games as long enough to indicate how successful, or not, this process will be. And I think its pretty foolish of some to be so fretful right now.

ifs buts and maybes, the point i'm trying to make is that the situation that we are in it isnt expected to struggle against WBA (to a degree ) and norwich.......what kind of transition is that? added to this,.... the system? what system are we looking at?....has it been evident that we havent seen it in the past....shouldnt it be becoming more and more evident as we play? not making us look more and more like we dont know whats going on?

first game against Saudi Sportswashing Machine was very encouraging. second game too (first half)..but the second half and the next game? i dont get the system...this thing with us pushing fullbacks up isnt new in the slightest...if we employ that through the whole game then its new to us , but not in football (and wenger got arsenal doing that from an ancient style in nooo time)

its weird to think that its expected and its okay to regress like that

chances are the we will get better....thats the only way after the last game. he problem is tha 3 winnable games.....2 of them extremely winnable and at home...have been wasted. in terms of forcasting performances you would asisgna big coefficient to those games for the season tally. now? harder games are going to have to take its place if we want to get into europe this year..and they will probably include away games too

meh, clearly i'm throwing out devils advocate here but nothing really that people are saying is making enough of a bang to make me think "yeah , we should be performing badly against wba and norwich"

our next game is away to reading..naturally a bad performance is part of this transition package under AVB? if that happens we can just throw transition and hypotheticals at the perfomance and possibly excuse it and put it under the "expected as much " overal transition umbrella

i doubt we could play as bad as we did last week straight away against another team we are ear marked to beat prior to season start

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Re: Hugo Lloris

ifs buts and maybes, the point i'm trying to make is that the situation that we are in it isnt expected to struggle against WBA (to a degree ) and norwich.......what kind of transition is that? added to this,.... the system? what system are we looking at?....has it been evident that we havent seen it in the past....shouldnt it be becoming more and more evident as we play? not making us look more and more like we dont know whats going on?

first game against Saudi Sportswashing Machine was very encouraging. second game too (first half)..but the second half and the next game? i dont get the system...this thing with us pushing fullbacks up isnt new in the slightest...if we employ that through the whole game then its new to us , but not in football (and wenger got arsenal doing that from an ancient style in nooo time)

its weird to think that its expected and its okay to regress like that

chances are the we will get better....thats the only way after the last game. he problem is tha 3 winnable games.....2 of them extremely winnable and at home...have been wasted. in terms of forcasting performances you would asisgna big coefficient to those games for the season tally. now? harder games are going to have to take its place if we want to get into europe this year..and they will probably include away games too

meh, clearly i'm throwing out devils advocate here but nothing really that people are saying is making enough of a bang to make me think "yeah , we should be performing badly against wba and norwich"

our next game is away to reading..naturally a bad performance is part of this transition package under AVB? if that happens we can just throw transition and hypotheticals at the perfomance and possibly excuse it and put it under the "expected as much " overal transition umbrella

i doubt we could play as bad as we did last week straight away against another team we are ear marked to beat prior to season start

What kind of transition? One that is early on in its development and has only just got vital components for the team (yet to actually train and understand the denmands).

Quite how you can justify the expectation that we should just be rattling off wins right now I dont know. Or to put it another way, its weird to think we can sell off our main players, change manager, change philosophy, start the season with 2/3rds of a team and expect to get results and consistency immediately.

We have shown positives and negatives. Ups and downs - IMO volatility should be expected.

For me, considering that the first 3 games were without key players, they are virtually a write off. FROM NOW I expect to see steady improvement. I still expect ups and downs, but less volatile and less frequent as they go on.

If in 6 games we havent improved at all then I will join the chorus of those with concerns, but at that point there will have been a reasonable amount of games to look at and take a view on with a "complete" team.

Even then it can be argued as too soon to make a real judgement.

The system, as Ive seen it so far - and I doubt thats "it" until we have really bedded in - is a 343 in attack, the full backs virtually as midfielders, the wingers coming inside, a man off of the striker and two in the middle holding things together. Its pinning the opposition back and trying to dominate them.

A lot of that falls in line with Harrys side, but the spine of this one is different, as is the way we keep shape and expect to pass IMHO.

Harry (and the whole team) relied heavily on Modric to be the fulcrum of our passing game, from what I have seen there now isnt one. Now its about them all working as a unit.

Clearly its early doors, clearly its likely to change, but - clearly, its also quite different IMO.

Even last year we had a terrible start, despite the manager having had 3 seasons to get his side together - it took the introduction of key players to get things moving again. How about waiting to see how this pans out a bit?

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Re: Hugo Lloris

Well, i give up then :lol:

Lets play Friedel so he keeps his premierleague record, lets play Dawson because he is a nice lad, lets play livermore because he is from the club..

I dont know what to say really, all i know is we'll have results like that every Saturday. We need to move on and play the top players.

You play the players who deserve their spot. You don't pick players on reputation.

As for Dawson? I'd have him in the side over Kaboul every single match. IMO the only place for Kaboul is the transfer list.

 

[GlennGoddle]

Re: Hugo Lloris

You play the players who deserve their spot. You don't pick players on reputation.

As for Dawson? I'd have him in the side over Kaboul every single match. IMO the only place for Kaboul is the transfer list.

You mean Like Kaboul who was our best centre half last season? :lol:

 

[charlietheyid]

Re: Hugo Lloris

You play the players who deserve their spot. You don't pick players on reputation.

As for Dawson? I'd have him in the side over Kaboul every single match. IMO the only place for Kaboul is the transfer list.

:lol:

And i suppose you would also start Livermore?

 

[NWND]

Re: Hugo Lloris

Agreed, the transition shouldn't have been that bad. It was really depressing to watch, it was like there had been absolutely no tactical work on what to do with the ball ever since the new manager came in, and yet the players were acting like they had been told to do something which they were unable to do. It was so, so weird.

Maybe there aren't many examples of good new managers having an accepted transition period because the type of manager is changing. We have guys like AVB and Rodgers managing big teams in England, guys that hadn't played the game at a high level but have gotten some success in their careers by learning a lot about the game, and drilling the team to a set system that can lead to excellent results if they get the right players to play within it. So in Rodgers case, even though I find the guy greatly annoying, I think he clearly has some good knowledge about the game, and can be a good manager, but at Liverpool there will be a transition period because a lot of their good players don't suit his very specific way of playing, so they would need to accept a transition will happen. Same with us, simply because the players must get used to the fact they have more tactical instructions than before, so there may be a transition period.

A lot of other managers that join English teams don't have radically different ways of doing things or thinking about the game, even though they may be more attacking or more defensive for example. They will probably give more individual freedom than these new 'system' managers and therefore the level of the comfort for the players in what they need to do is always pretty high.

But I agree though, even if there is a transition period, no performance should be as bad as that Norwich game. So many things were wrong with it, the players were making so many basic, obvious errors that anyone could see. I can't even put my finger on why it would be that bad. I read that AVB, despite being more tactical than Harry, wasn't overly tactical and was able to reduce his tactics to a half an hour briefing before a game, which is what I believe Harry did anyway. But it then begs the question, if he isn't overly tactical, what the hell was the problem in that game? Why had the players all abandoned good, normal football sense?

What you're forgetting though is that AVB wasn't taking over a good team as though nothing had happened, he was taking charge of a team that had lost 3 of its key players and had been in spirralling form for over half a season, even with those 3 players in the side.

Last summer we went into the season similarly underprepared with transfers, unideal team selections as a result and clouds hanging over the future of our key players and we got spanked out of sight, albeit by superior teams.

This idea that AVB waltzed into a perfect team performing like a dream and all he had to do was keep the status quo is complete gonads. He is trying to arrest a team in obvious decline that has been shorn of pretty much all of its top talent bar Bale, the replacement for Ade (Ade himself) isn't ready and/or fully fit and the replacements for the above players weren't ready to start!

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Hugo Lloris

Even last year we had a terrible start, despite the manager having had 3 seasons to get his side together - it took the introduction of key players to get things moving again. How about waiting to see how this pans out a bit?

yes we got hammered by Man united and Emirates Marketing Project in the first two games, both games of which were infinately better than the norwich game..one of them was away...and we had missing key players without any replacements for them at all, as in in any way shape or form. we also played that game against city without a holding mid.....

did i mention we played well in those games but just got massacered by clinical finishing?

take a guess what we did in the next game that was winnable. actually that isnt important..lets focus on the fact that even though we got gutted by the scoreline we didnt play nearly as bad as the norwich game (not ac milan, not arsenal, not city or utd....norwich. LOL...even fulham turned them over)

 

[Park Lane James]

Re: Hugo Lloris

You play the players who deserve their spot. You don't pick players on reputation.

As for Dawson? I'd have him in the side over Kaboul every single match. IMO the only place for Kaboul is the transfer list.

That is WUMery at its very worst

:ross:

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Hugo Lloris

You mean Like Kaboul who was our best centre half last season? :lol:

he was ? i'd debate that....towards the end of the season king faltered but early on the man was the best of the best. long live the King.

who did kaboul play next to for most of the season then? its funny but we had bassong who was fringe...gallas and king and dawson who are all injury prone, nelsen who was a squadie...who did kaboul play next o frequently?

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Hugo Lloris

What you're forgetting though is that AVB wasn't taking over a good team as though nothing had happened, he was taking charge of a team that had lost 3 of its key players and had been in spirralling form for over half a season, even with those 3 players in the side.

Last summer we went into the season similarly underprepared with transfers, unideal team selections as a result and clouds hanging over the future of our key players and we got spanked out of sight, albeit by superior teams.

This idea that AVB waltzed into a perfect team performing like a dream and all he had to do was keep the status quo is complete gonads. He is trying to arrest a team in obvious decline that has been shorn of pretty much all of its top talent bar Bale, the replacement for Ade (Ade himself) isn't ready and/or fully fit and the replacements for the above players weren't ready to start!

we were pirraling out of control when harr looked like leaving..the second the job wasnt his anymore results picked up in our last 4 or 5 games.

AVB got a good team, i totally agree though hat he doesnt have the same stack of cards as harr cause no modders, VDV played that WBA game though make no mistake......and no king (the greates Cb of all time)

but he players he had for th norwhich game shouldnt be playing that badly...and its nothing to do with last season unless the personnel stays the same...especially if people are crying transition...cause transition means a change...how can you be in transition and still hold on to the last season as the KEY factor. transition means new beginnings in general i would have assumed.

no one has said he walked into a perfect team...just a team MUCH better than the one that handed our arses to us last weekened...that he has had a full preseason with.....and with decent players purchased prior to the game.

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Hugo Lloris

i've got to say, i'm really actually enjoying this discussion....

i dont know why but i've got a big giggling smile at all this stuff

i think its cause now with AVB in charge and us selling our key players, retiring them (pretty sure king was forced out conspiracy theory i know), and selling off the fringe players..the replacing them with new talent etc etc.....i've just started looking at the season as just "meh". relegation aside there is nothing i can think of that can get me dowsn this year.

all this stuff we are talking about doesnt even really matter..the real thing is next season......at which point cause we had a bad-ish year (which people fully expected apparently) we'll probably lose bale to madrid

LOL

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Hugo Lloris

you know what, i'm just glad that in my life time i experienced the years of Jol and Harry ......, could be a veeeeeeery long time before we reach those heights and expectations again..especially with the way the league is turning out

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Re: Hugo Lloris

yes we got hammered by Man united and Emirates Marketing Project in the first two games, both games of which were infinately better than the norwich game..one of them was away...and we had missing key players without any replacements for them at all, as in in any way shape or form. we also played that game against city without a holding mid.....

did i mention we played well in those games but just got massacered by clinical finishing?

take a guess what we did in the next game that was winnable. actually that isnt important..lets focus on the fact that even though we got gutted by the scoreline we didnt play nearly as bad as the norwich game (not ac milan, not arsenal, not city or utd....norwich. LOL...even fulham turned them over)

So out of all that you pick up on a point illustrating how key players make a difference? Thats all that was, a nice Spurs-centric example of how performances can differ with and without key players.

The Norwich performance was no doubt worse than those first games last year, but it also compounded by not having key players and being at the centre of a transitional phase.

It amazes me you seem to have such difficulty accepting that change can come at a cost in the short term. Though I suspect you understand full well and are just making mischief :lol:

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Re: Hugo Lloris

we were pirraling out of control when harr looked like leaving..the second the job wasnt his anymore results picked up in our last 4 or 5 games.

AVB got a good team, i totally agree though hat he doesnt have the same stack of cards as harr cause no modders, VDV played that WBA game though make no mistake......and no king (the greates Cb of all time)

but he players he had for th norwhich game shouldnt be playing that badly...and its nothing to do with last season unless the personnel stays the same...especially if people are crying transition...cause transition means a change...how can you be in transition and still hold on to the last season as the KEY factor. transition means new beginnings in general i would have assumed.

no one has said he walked into a perfect team...just a team MUCH better than the one that handed our arses to us last weekened...that he has had a full preseason with.....and with decent players purchased prior to the game.

We had a bad day. A really bad day. We had them last season as well, and the year before and every season prior. Not sure its the beginning of the end, especially when there are clearly mitigating factors.

Affy trying to build an argument on straw men here I think

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Hugo Lloris

We had a bad day. A really bad day. We had them last season as well, and the year before and every season prior. Not sure its the beginning of the end, especially when there are clearly mitigating factors.

Affy trying to build an argument on straw men here I think

hayhahahahaha rumbled :ross:

come on , we can stretch this out here....

Saudi Sportswashing Machine, wba and norwich v city and united...shocking stuff

 

[Rossi22]

Re: Hugo Lloris

you know what, i'm just glad that in my life time i experienced the years of Jol and Harry ......, could be a veeeeeeery long time before we reach those heights and expectations again..especially with the way the league is turning out

We're 3 games in. Get a grip for GHod's sake.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Re: Hugo Lloris

i've got to say, i'm really actually enjoying this discussion....

i dont know why but i've got a big giggling smile at all this stuff

i think its cause now with AVB in charge and us selling our key players, retiring them (pretty sure king was forced out conspiracy theory i know), and selling off the fringe players..the replacing them with new talent etc etc.....i've just started looking at the season as just "meh". relegation aside there is nothing i can think of that can get me dowsn this year.

all this stuff we are talking about doesnt even really matter..the real thing is next season......at which point cause we had a bad-ish year (which people fully expected apparently) we'll probably lose bale to madrid

LOL

Ha...totally agreed. If the players, after a full pre-season, were looking at utterly clueless as they did against Norwich, I can't see it improving any time soon. I will just expect next season to be the one...which as you say we will probably have lost more key players. I just really hope we give AVB time. Even if this season is a total nightmare and we finish 10th, I would want him to stay, because the progress we would have made would hopefully stand us in good stead for the next year. But if the season is that bad, he will be gone. But I simply can't see how we will improve to the level we need to get to after the absolutely shocking Norwich game, to put up any sort of competitive performance throughout the season.

But then, it makes me think. At Saudi Sportswashing Machine it was actually a very good performance. First half against West Brom was a very good, intelligent performance. What happened? Something happened from the half time point at West Brom, which made the players completely lose themselves. Against West Brom, they needed to keep the ball, take the sting out of the game and stop WBA getting it, but they just didn't. Against Norwich..they didn't do anything. What went wrong? Why were we so good at Saudi Sportswashing Machine compared to now?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Re: Hugo Lloris

hayhahahahaha rumbled :ross:

come on , we can stretch this out here....

Saudi Sportswashing Machine, wba and norwich v city and united...shocking stuff

:lol:

Saudi Sportswashing Machine and WBA far from shocking from what I can see - though ultimately disappointing (not the same thing)

Norwich was apparently awful

That said we had 57% possession, 5 more shots, 5 more on target, twice as many corners and less fouls given as well - after being 5 minutes away from a win.

Not trying to make out the game was good, I believe it wasnt, just that... well... was it THAT bad? Considering the lack of key players and such?

[now THATS a straw man]

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Hugo Lloris

Ha...totally agreed. If the players, after a full pre-season, were looking at utterly clueless as they did against Norwich, I can't see it improving any time soon. I will just expect next season to be the one...which as you say we will probably have lost more key players. I just really hope we give AVB time. Even if this season is a total nightmare and we finish 10th, I would want him to stay, because the progress we would have made would hopefully stand us in good stead for the next year. But if the season is that bad, he will be gone. But I simply can't see how we will improve to the level we need to get to after the absolutely shocking Norwich game, to put up any sort of competitive performance throughout the season.

But then, it makes me think. At Saudi Sportswashing Machine it was actually a very good performance. First half against West Brom was a very good, intelligent performance. What happened? Something happened from the half time point at West Brom, which made the players completely lose themselves. Against West Brom, they needed to keep the ball, take the sting out of the game and stop WBA getting it, but they just didn't. Against Norwich..they didn't do anything. What went wrong? Why were we so good at Saudi Sportswashing Machine compared to now?

Confidence.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Re: Hugo Lloris

Confidence.

442 more like. VDV going off gave them the initiative and we never got it back