AVB - I want him out now!

[billyiddo]

Can someone please tell me who is denying that we are playing badly in attack - i keep seeing it trotted out but am yet to see anyone actually deny that this is where our problems lay.

maybe if you can't come up with any names then perhaps you should stop repeating it over and over because it's probably not true. cheers

 

[Robspur12]

Can someone please tell me who is denying that we are playing badly in attack - i keep seeing it trotted out but am yet to see anyone actually deny that this is where our problems lay.

maybe if you can't come up with any names then perhaps you should stop repeating it over and over because it's probably not true. cheers

TBF I don't think the argument in this thread is whether we are playing bad in attack or not, everyone agrees we are not good, but rather whether or not AVB is the man to change the attack to make it more effective.

 

[Modric THFC]

you should be a pundit


:ross:

All I'm saying is this time last year we were in the exact same position as we are now.
AVB didnt come with any solution to our problems, instead Bale turned into Ronaldo.
Now we're back to playing how we were a year ago.
The AVB plan is a solid defensive base and counter, and if we cant counter then hope some individual comes up with a moment of magic to win us the game.
There is no long term plan here. He's here to get his reputation back by playing it safe and not ****ing up.

 

[billyiddo]

Did Bale start the season in the same role that he finished it in? What happened after a couple of months that took his performances up a level or two - could it possibly have been that AVB had some role in getting that out of Bale? Does he not deserve credit for that?

Does it make Wenger a bad manager because he set his team up to get the best out of RVP? And without his goals they would have been WAY behind where they finished


Totally disagree that we set up to counter.

 

[Papercut]

All I'm saying is this time last year we were in the exact same position as we are now.
AVB didnt come with any solution to our problems, instead Bale turned into Ronaldo.
Now we're back to playing how we were a year ago.
The AVB plan is a solid defensive base and counter, and if we cant counter then hope some individual comes up with a moment of magic to win us the game.
There is no long term plan here. He's here to get his reputation back by playing it safe and not ****ing up.

I thought it was the patient-possession game?

 

[africanspurs]

Did Bale start the season in the same role that he finished it in? What happened after a couple of months that took his performances up a level or two - could it possibly have been that AVB had some role in getting that out of Bale? Does he not deserve credit for that?

Does it make Wenger a bad manager because he set his team up to get the best out of RVP? And without his goals they would have been WAY behind where they finished


Totally disagree that we set up to counter.

no, not entirely

harry was already in the transition of making that happen.

what happened was the dead cat bounce in that a new manager came in after Harry lost his job , a fresh new mind set and performances in the position that harry was trying to get the best out to bale. confidence and form takes over from there

and wenger doesnt set up his team to get the best out of VAn P, but you are right in that alot went through him....their style though never changes and infact wenger gets the best from van p because of the style that arsenal plays...alot of players do...its why when they leave there they cant reciprocate the levels they hit when they were with him...most of them anyway

 

[africanspurs]

All I'm saying is this time last year we were in the exact same position as we are now.
AVB didnt come with any solution to our problems, instead Bale turned into Ronaldo.
Now we're back to playing how we were a year ago.
The AVB plan is a solid defensive base and counter, and if we cant counter then hope some individual comes up with a moment of magic to win us the game.
There is no long term plan here. He's here to get his reputation back by playing it safe and not ****ing up.

i would say avb is set up to have a solid structured base and counter when we are away from home more than anything else.

i also THOUGHT, not sure now, that at home it was more that without the ball he would want to press and counter if possible as an extra weapon.... but he has targeted players in the off season that dont support that theory as much but do more so a possession based game

i'm not sure but right now i am thinking that his mindset nowadays it to play possesion based and draw the opposition out

 

[braineclipse]

[/B]

Braineclipse - would this be an example of a straw man argument in your book? I don't recall anyone saying that us winning by three goals is a pre-requisite, or that us failing to do so constitutes our being ****. Or is it just someone applying conditions to other peoples posts unjustly, ie we don't really think the performance was ****, or we don't really think the opposition was terrible, we just want to think it/pretend it in order to be able to have a good moan?

Its interesting the positive support seems to resort to statements like this, not acknowledging other peoples opinions - instead accusing them of lying to promote their own 'agenda' if you will, when those who are unhappy appear content to list why there unhappy and look to engage in debate but are called unreasonable for doing so.

When we try and air our views its all straw men and hidden agendas. When actually its just a view on a football match we'd like to discuss on a football forum. Interesting.

EDIT: reference the post - Winning all the games was the bare minimum against that opposition. And AVB achieved it. No great shakes.

Potentially, if he was being serious. I doubt that he was, like I doubt you were serious about people claiming that we're amazing because of our results in the last 38 games.

I'm sorry, I can't take your complaints about others not taking your opinions seriously in a 24 page AVB thread considering some of the stuff I've seen you write in here. You complain about the other side accusing you of having an agenda in between calling the other side the super fan 5000 phalanx, make your mind up on what you want and what you expect and apply your standards to your own posts before complaining about the other side.

It's not all straw men and hidden agendas, please. I've taken part in plenty of serious discussions on this topic. I pointed out what I think were a couple of straw men in your posts. Feel free to disagree and defend your opinion if you want, or not, that's fine too. But if you don't oppose my view then move on to some actual debate instead of playing the victim. You can't just leave the (only?) claims that your argument was a straw man argument unopposed and then claim that it's all straw men.

I would not be surprised if in this entire thread I was the first to bring up "straw man" arguments, if I'm wrong about that I'm still guessing it hasn't been a major part of what has been going on.

 

[mudshark]

i would say avb is set up to have a solid structured base and counter when we are away from home more than anything else.

i also THOUGHT, not sure now, that at home it was more that without the ball he would want to press and counter if possible as an extra weapon.... but he has targeted players in the off season that dont support that theory as much but do more so a possession based game

i'm not sure but right now i am thinking that his mindset nowadays it to play possesion based and draw the opposition out

I think that's right. It's the old Barça gambit, "Come into my parlour, said the spider to the fly," but it looks to be an issue that we don't seem to have alternative strategies available when teams are too smart and disciplined not to fall for it, and instead it's us that end up getting suckered. Until we go behind, and then it's hell-for-leather, suddenly...

 

[Jordinho]

I think that's right. It's the old Barça gambit, "Come into my parlour, said the spider to the fly," but it looks to be an issue that we don't seem to have alternative strategies available when teams are too smart and disciplined not to fall for it, and instead it's us that end up getting suckered. Until we go behind, and then it's hell-for-leather, suddenly...

We, as in Michael Dawson, often get impatient after two or three passes along the back 4 and boot it long. If we are going to play this way we need players that are comfortable with the style. Having the midfielders drop deep to carry the ball forward isn't helping either. We need to keep the ball moving to create gaps in the opposition team.

 

[NWND]

We, as in Michael Dawson, often get impatient after two or three passes along the back 4 and boot it long. If we are going to play this way we need players that are comfortable with the style. Having the midfielders drop deep to carry the ball forward isn't helping either. We need to keep the ball moving to create gaps in the opposition team.

Chile against England is an example of possession football with a purpose. Every one of their players were not only confident on the ball but were confident to play long threaded balls to players that were not close to them. They were also comfortable receiving the ball in tight areas. It's this complete trust in their ability and the ability of their team mates (I visibly see Spurs players hesitate and check back rather than passing into players in forward positions just because those players are marked)

Chile passed into players that were marked as they trusted those players to be able to control in tight areas and lay-off or turn.

The key to opening up stubborn teams with passing is breaking their marking system. If the player on the ball is being closed and all his options are marked he has to play the ball to the marked player and go for the return. The marked player should lay it off either to the player he's just received the ball from or another and instantly spin and go for a return pass.

This way the marked players move their markers around, they create holes in the defence and confusion.

We're too nervous, hesitant and slow to do this so we just pass the ball sideways around infront of a non-moving wall of opposition.

 

[africanspurs]

We, as in Michael Dawson, often get impatient after two or three passes along the back 4 and boot it long. If we are going to play this way we need players that are comfortable with the style. Having the midfielders drop deep to carry the ball forward isn't helping either. We need to keep the ball moving to create gaps in the opposition team.

why are blaming dawson for this? i.e playing the ball long

 

[africanspurs]

Chile against England is an example of possession football with a purpose. Every one of their players were not only confident on the ball but were confident to play long threaded balls to players that were not close to them. They were also comfortable receiving the ball in tight areas. It's this complete trust in their ability and the ability of their team mates (I visibly see Spurs players hesitate and check back rather than passing into players in forward positions just because those players are marked)

Chile passed into players that were marked as they trusted those players to be able to control in tight areas and lay-off or turn.

The key to opening up stubborn teams with passing is breaking their marking system. If the player on the ball is being closed and all his options are marked he has to play the ball to the marked player and go for the return. The marked player should lay it off either to the player he's just received the ball from or another and instantly spin and go for a return pass.

This way the marked players move their markers around, they create holes in the defence and confusion.

We're too nervous, hesitant and slow to do this so we just pass the ball sideways around infront of a non-moving wall of opposition.

isnt this what braineclipse is trying to say?

essentially you are hitting our situation because we lack technical players of a high calibre. i dont agree with that actually being the reason we frequently look limp in attack

yes of course it would help and most likely solve the problem but the fact is that you get those players in then you probably lose something else we currently have, dont know what though

our squad as it is now is MUCH better than the performances its been showing, MUCH better...we dont need these highly technical and intelligent ball players to beat teams that have made us look like we havent got a scooby how to attack. we should be able to do this with the players we have now

...and we probably can if AVB lets them play

 

[El Guepardo]

I wonder whether some of this confidence will increase, as the players become away of the abilities, and weaknesses, of those around them so that they can make a decision more easily about where the ball should be played to.

 

[africanspurs]

I wonder whether some of this confidence will increase, as the players become away of the abilities, and weaknesses, of those around them so that they can make a decision more easily about where the ball should be played to.

chemistry and team work. only happens over a lengthy period.

i REALLy wouldnt mind finding that thread where people asked how long it should take for a team to gel, ours specifically

 

[El Guepardo]

chemistry and team work. only happens over a lengthy period.

i REALLy wouldnt mind finding that thread where people asked how long it should take for a team to gel, ours specifically

Precisely. I think we need a settled team too. None of this Hokey Pokey stuff, in/out business. We pick the strongest team and allow the players time and games together to find that link. Once we have a solid base, it will be easier and make less of a difference if we start switching one or two players in. The squad will at least have 9 players who are on the same page.

 

[africanspurs]

Precisely. I think we need a settled team too. None of this Hokey Pokey stuff, in/out business. We pick the strongest team and allow the players time and games together to find that link. Once we have a solid base, it will be easier and make less of a difference if we start switching one or two players in. The squad will at least have 9 players who are on the same page.

but this is the thing

we should have 9 players on the same page already that regularly play. so wat da dealio

 

[Jordinho]

why are blaming dawson for this? i.e playing the ball long

Because he does it the most and rarely to much effect. The stats says he has 93 accurate long balls from 141 attempts, but that's just all passes over a certain length. Phil Jagielka is the only player in the Premier League to have played more long balls. Vlad has a higher number of long balls per game, but he is far more accurate, 36 of 41. It's the ones where he boots it long to the winger on opposite side that has to go. He may not have been instructed NOT to do it, but it doesn't mean he should be doing it. Pass and move along the ground is IMO more effective in order to unsettle opposition defences, creating those gaps, than simply hoofing it. Accurate long ball is also a very poor stat. It only tells you whose head it landed on, not where it ended up. Most of them will end up being cleared by a defender.

 

[NWND]

isnt this what braineclipse is trying to say?

essentially you are hitting our situation because we lack technical players of a high calibre. i dont agree with that actually being the reason we frequently look limp in attack

yes of course it would help and most likely solve the problem but the fact is that you get those players in then you probably lose something else we currently have, dont know what though

our squad as it is now is MUCH better than the performances its been showing, MUCH better...we dont need these highly technical and intelligent ball players to beat teams that have made us look like we havent got a scooby how to attack. we should be able to do this with the players we have now

...and we probably can if AVB lets them play

No I'm not saying we lack those players. All of our players (including Dawson) are technically competent to play this way.

This is precisely why I don't think it's an excuse - I think the players lack confidence and understanding of what to do and i think they are actually being coached in a safety first approach where you don't pass into tightly congested areas and have to spend an hour a time passing safely sideways and backwards waiting for the opposition to make a mistake in their marking system and.a gap to open up.

As I keep saying AVB seems to believe in football by percentages. I think he believes that even the best drilled teams will switch off a couple of times a match. His stance is safety first, don't take risks, wait for that to happen rather than to impose a style on the opposition and MAKE the mistakes and openings ourselves.

Chile's players aren't individually that great. Sanchez is brilliant obviously but Bousejour? Seriously? They're just a well coached team, given freedom and confidence to trust their own footballing instincts and ability and are better than the sum of their parts as a result.

Our players look over-coached, always thinking , never instinctive. You can see the doubt on their minds every time they look forward, check back and knock a safe pass sideways.

To me this is AVB's fault. This squad has so much potential but it's being strangled by over coaching

 

[DHSF]

No I'm not saying we lack those players. All of our players (including Dawson) are technically competent to play this way.

This is precisely why I don't think it's an excuse - I think the players lack confidence and understanding of what to do and i think they are actually being coached in a safety first approach where you don't pass into tightly congested areas and have to spend an hour a time passing safely sideways and backwards waiting for the opposition to make a mistake in their marking system and.a gap to open up.

As I keep saying AVB seems to believe in football by percentages. I think he believes that even the best drilled teams will switch off a couple of times a match. His stance is safety first, don't take risks, wait for that to happen rather than to impose a style on the opposition and MAKE the mistakes and openings ourselves.

Chile's players aren't individually that great. Sanchez is brilliant obviously but Bousejour? Seriously? They're just a well coached team, given freedom and confidence to trust their own footballing instincts and ability and are better than the sum of their parts as a result.

Our players look over-coached, always thinking , never instinctive. You can see the doubt on their minds every time they look forward, check back and knock a safe pass sideways.

To me this is AVB's fault. This squad has so much potential but it's being strangled by over coaching

I aluded to this in another thread and another post. It is blatantly obvious by watching those players that they seem shackled into moving in certain directions and doing certain things. Its like they are told a criteria and they have to run through it in their minds if the situation arises eg if the opposition moves his little toe, Walker runs past him or something like that.

Players to play well need to enjoy their football and I dont think they are. They are being micro managed as it were and as we all know - Micro management is just ****. Its a control freaks way of saying, I dont trust you so do it my way and my way is the only way I can adopt to counter against the fact I cant do it on the pitch myself.

If AVB just told those players to go out and play and not worry too much about the opposition etc - I think we would see some of the players realise their potential

ps - I actually dont want AVB out and dont think anyone should suggest that but I do think he needs to change the way the team plays and even his management style on enforcing players to be so regimented.