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AVB - I want him out now!

NWND said:
I dont think it is I think waiting around for everything to get better when it doesn't look like it will is weak
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Of course you don't as you find it hard to accept views contrary to your own. I think the analogy of the complex relationship between two humans in an intimate relationship to the head coach of an upper echelon Premier League Football team (that is a publicly traded company with long-term plans for the growth of the club) in the process of rebuilding the squad (in itself made up of 25 + players all of whom are at different stages of their careers) does not stand up.

If your point is about ending said relationship when it is not going well (girlfriend/AVB) then you have a point. It does not go any deeper than that.
 
NWND said:
Haha so what you're saying is that she does your head in and you're not sure where it's going but you've spent half your wage in designer shops trying to keep her sweet and half your time listening to her **** and you don't want to have to do that whole single/dating thing so you're going to lump it for a while and see how things go? You never know she might have a nice side :)
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You know what mate? The 'girlfriend' analogy in this instance is a fantastic one. I would suggest the 'boyfriend' in this analogy can be tabbed with one of three things.

1) They made the wrong choice from the start
2) They made a choice based on what you thought you saw and cannot accept anything which doesn't fit your exact specifications.
3) They have no ability to work with a situation/see what your role in it's lack of satisfaction might be/have the fortitude and courage of someone who will doubtless be single for the ret of their life because when there's a bit of work to be done for the BIGGER PICTURE you don't have the balls.

Anyone who has been/is married knows that NO marriage lasts unless both parties are prepared to meet halfway and review their own 'performance'/remember WHY they made the commitment. Essentially it appears that in AVB's case it comes down to one thing; do supporters trust that he wants to win football matches with more entertaining football and by scoring more than one goal a game? My PERSONAL feeling is that he does, and that he is like a nervous bride right now in so much as he's still learning to juggle pressure with expectations with melding a squad with maintaining a good level in the table. Right now he is doing most of those things except for the more entertaining factor/getting the team to score. Sunday was unfortunate. The second-half presented opportunities that the beloved 'Sandra' could've scored. It didn't happen. Another day it will.

Don't give up so soon on the bride sunshine…dig in, work a little for it, be fair and be loyal. THAT for me is what being a supporter is all about. If you want instant results mate, there are plenty of clubs around right now who are sploshing the cash from unlimited banks and trying to buy it. We play one of them in less than 2 weeks. We are above them in the table by the way...
 
milo said:
NWND, what has happened in the last two weeks to change your mind from your position at the end of last month where you thought that the players weren't good enough?
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I'll add this quote from the same thread:

Those saying we can play better football than we do are missing the point. World class players don't need to be coached and trained to play great football - they just do, instinctively. Swansea have been coached a certain way for ages and interestingly they're not looking as good this season precisely because they're integrating new players into their squad.

Seems like someone is suggesting Swansea's new players need time to gel (as well as suggesting that world class players don't need to be coached or trained), yet ours don't and that the notion of needing to integrate is a falsehood.
 
NWND said:
But everyone keeps saying that "yes, we're really mundane and boring and functional, but don't worry because this isn't AVB's real vision, its just him starting out and after a while he's going to unleash this monster attacking passing GHod-damn amazing tekkers barca-stylee attacking football all over the place, which will probably cause Arsene Wenger to self-combust leaving only a feint odor of formage and cause Adrian Durham to commit suicide by a sponsored mission to eat as much extra-hot nandos as he can stomach.....it's going to be great, just you wait, he's just trying to make us hard to beat in the meantime, but that's not the REAL plan, oooooooh no sir"

But what is the evidence of this?

Last season = dull, boring and like DMac says, if anything our ability to create chances and play creatively regressed as the season went on till the point where we were literally relying on Bale scoring ridiculous goal of the season contenders to win us games against poor opposition at the end of the season, in games that reminded me a lot of this season's games.

This season = continue as above, but if anything even more defensive. We're so tight at the back, but our ability to create chances bar one or two periods in one or two games has been almost non-existant. Basically its got to the point where we stifle games so much with our play that neither side is able to create a chance of note (see Everton game).

I mean, i'd love to have your optimism, but where is the evidence that AVB is planning this more progressive route? My concern is that the actual evidence in front of me points to him actually imposing this defensive stifling strategy FURTHER on the team and that actually we ARE seeing a progressive move to his style more and more over the last year and a half, but that this style he is heading towards is ultra-catennacio, whereby his thinking is purely statistical:

If you stop other teams from scoring there's only so many games you can lose.
If you stop other teams from scoring, the balance of probabilities says that you win a certain percentage of these games due to the chance circumstances of football.
If I get enouogh 1-0 wins and 0-0 draws, i'll get a points total that will at least stop me getting sacked on the balance of probabilities.

What evidence are you seeing of a progressive move away from ultra-defensive tactics to a more progressive style?

I don't think its a case of waiting for players to gel, or of AVB wanting first to make us solid, then to make us attacking.

I think its a case of AVB telling the players to play a certain way and drilling it into them, which leads to stiflied, mundane performance, where the players are restricted.

AVB has a lot in common with George Graham:

1) He's intelligent and articulate
2) He's smart and dapper
3) He's got a wry sense of humour
4) He's an ultra-tactician and he visibly enjoys nullifying other teams in a "Ha, i'm clever than you, i've stopped your tactics and got a sneaky 1-0 win, up yours" kind of way.
5) He appears to distrust 'flair' or 'eccentric' players, or players that are a bit maverik (GG's treatment of Ginola, AVB's sacking off of Van der Vaart, BAE and Ade).
6) Their preference for a double defensive midfield screen
7) Their rigid tactical style, which high pressure up the pitch.
8) A lack of goals from their teams due to the very rigid instructions and shapes their teams are set up (remember GG's four 0-0s in a row?)

I'll sit here and wait for AVB's attacking revolution, i've got a feeling i'll be waiting here for a while. Meanwhile, I think that the results will fail to justify the poor nature of football, as GG found out. The problem with setting up this way is that like Harry's opposite tactic of "go out and run about a bit" all out attacking free-for-all, it can only take you so far. By setting up so defensively, we struggle if teams do manage to take the lead against us, as its hard to turn yourself from a defensive stance into an attacking one, therefore you're almost accepting losing a few games every season.

Its football by percentages and I hate it.
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Look man, I'm not denying the football at times is functional at the moment. I'm not denying that last season particularly at home there were some incredibly difficult games to watch. In an attacking sense, in terms of creating chances, we were utterly awful. We were functional and set up to get results, so that we could make the most of our best player. But why do I think it will improve? Because I have read in to AVB's career, I understand what he desires, I read in to how others feel about him around the club, I look at how the players respond to him, and with everything like that taken into account, it is easy to conclude that he is not a boring, functional, safety first manager. He is actually a manager that likes easy on the eye, fluid football, attacking full backs, pressing high and to score goals. But to do that in a team that wins while bringing together a lot of new players is not easy. I think if Harry signed this many he would probably start off well early in the season before having a big dip at the end. Because he lets their talent compensate for their lack of familiarity. We are working so that we will have familiarity, and a plan. It will make us much more versatile, much more robust in the future.

I mean, can you honestly say that you don't think there is any cause for patience in football? If clubs were to draw conclusions off of ten games (only a couple of which have been that bad), then no structure would ever get developed. Fergie at United, took time. Wenger at Arsenal, implemented something straight away because he was ahead of his time and that gave him the advantage, but why didn't that continue for the last few years? He was selling his key players every single year and having to start again. They could have easily dispensed with him. The fans were most definitely saying 'We are too soft, conceding too many easy goals and we have lost the winning mentality, we can't even score enough, Wenger is not the man' and now, once he's been able to keep a squad together over a summer and actually add some quality, they are doing really well again. Not surprising. Patience is required during the reign of a manager, and also at the beginning. It is most definitely required when the majority of the attack is completely new.

As for what evidence I am seeing, the games against Swansea and Norwich this year were better than literally any performance we put together against a 'lesser' team at home for the entirety of last season. Against Norwich in particular the movement was excellent and the goals we scored were fantastic. It was not boring. It was not rigid. We played good football and won the game. We were also really unlucky to come away with nothing against Saudi Sportswashing Machine. Obviously we've taken a bit of a step back since then, but it doesn't mean that once players have settled (and we've come through the stage of doing quite well largely because the players are unknown quantities and have a bit of a surprise factor, and the stage where teams are unwise to it and our lack of familiarity comes into play) that we won't be doing really well.

Honestly man, I think you are going to look so silly by the end of the season. It may be that because of the scale of change because of letting Bale go, we don't get top 4. I think we will be in an excellent position next season though and I am willing to bet that by say February, we are playing some genuinely nice football at home where we are expected to, and in the midst of quite a nice run of form. We will be controlling games and creating chances, while continuing to boss with a high line. I definitely believe that. And if we don't at least see progress consistently to a form of vision that AVB wants by the end of the year (as well as a lack of , then I have to say he has failed. I will be right there with you. But it is completely stupid to not have some patience now.

The Graham stuff is just wrong. He isn't rigid, if you knew how his former players spoke of him you'd know they are not given too many instructions and he actually places quite a lot of weighting on to individual motivation. He isn't a defensive manager either. He's a manager who plays to win given the circumstances. And he is an idealist towards a particular brand of football that revolves around controlling a game. That isn't defensive. It isn't gung ho and unplanned mayhem either, but over the long term it will give us the best chance of earning the highest number of points.
 
milo said:
NWND, what has happened in the last two weeks to change your mind from your position at the end of last month where you thought that the players weren't good enough?
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Nothing's changed, in terms of my opinion of the players - I didn't think the players aren't good enough, I just don't think they're as good as Bale, Modric and VDV.

What has changed is a loss of faith in AVB based on the defeat to Saudi Sportswashing Machine being our 3rd of the season and second at home to a side we really should be beating.

So my way of thinking was:

Positive results and dire performances = well I suspense I can live with it even though I don't like it, but
Dire performances and average results? What's the point! I don't see one? I.e. We're no better off position/points wise than Harry but we're so much worse to watch!

I don't think we have the individual quality that Harry had to play with but we've certainly got the most in depth squad I can remember and it's certainly more than good enough to play exciting football or even, dare I say it, score more than 6 goals from open play in a quarter of a season!

My point about Swansea was they were a team of average players coached into a system for years that made them good to watch. You break up their pattern by adding new players then they're suddenly not good. But when you have very good players, they don't need time or coaching much, they're instinctively good ! They instinctively click with team mates and look at ease on the ball!
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Look man, I'm not denying the football at times is functional at the moment. I'm not denying that last season particularly at home there were some incredibly difficult games to watch. In an attacking sense, in terms of creating chances, we were utterly awful. We were functional and set up to get results, so that we could make the most of our best player. But why do I think it will improve? Because I have read in to AVB's career, I understand what he desires, I read in to how others feel about him around the club, I look at how the players respond to him, and with everything like that taken into account, it is easy to conclude that he is not a boring, functional, safety first manager. He is actually a manager that likes easy on the eye, fluid football, attacking full backs, pressing high and to score goals. But to do that in a team that wins while bringing together a lot of new players is not easy. I think if Harry signed this many he would probably start off well early in the season before having a big dip at the end. Because he lets their talent compensate for their lack of familiarity. We are working so that we will have familiarity, and a plan. It will make us much more versatile, much more robust in the future.

I mean, can you honestly say that you don't think there is any cause for patience in football? If clubs were to draw conclusions off of ten games (only a couple of which have been that bad), then no structure would ever get developed. Fergie at United, took time. Wenger at Arsenal, implemented something straight away because he was ahead of his time and that gave him the advantage, but why didn't that continue for the last few years? He was selling his key players every single year and having to start again. They could have easily dispensed with him. The fans were most definitely saying 'We are too soft, conceding too many easy goals and we have lost the winning mentality, we can't even score enough, Wenger is not the man' and now, once he's been able to keep a squad together over a summer and actually add some quality, they are doing really well again. Not surprising. Patience is required during the reign of a manager, and also at the beginning. It is most definitely required when the majority of the attack is completely new.

As for what evidence I am seeing, the games against Swansea and Norwich this year were better than literally any performance we put together against a 'lesser' team at home for the entirety of last season. Against Norwich in particular the movement was excellent and the goals we scored were fantastic. It was not boring. It was not rigid. We played good football and won the game. We were also really unlucky to come away with nothing against Saudi Sportswashing Machine. Obviously we've taken a bit of a step back since then, but it doesn't mean that once players have settled (and we've come through the stage of doing quite well largely because the players are unknown quantities and have a bit of a surprise factor, and the stage where teams are unwise to it and our lack of familiarity comes into play) that we won't be doing really well.

Honestly man, I think you are going to look so silly by the end of the season. It may be that because of the scale of change because of letting Bale go, we don't get top 4. I think we will be in an excellent position next season though and I am willing to bet that by say February, we are playing some genuinely nice football at home where we are expected to, and in the midst of quite a nice run of form. We will be controlling games and creating chances, while continuing to boss with a high line. I definitely believe that. And if we don't at least see progress consistently to a form of vision that AVB wants by the end of the year (as well as a lack of , then I have to say he has failed. I will be right there with you. But it is completely stupid to not have some patience now.

The Graham stuff is just wrong. He isn't rigid, if you knew how his former players spoke of him you'd know they are not given too many instructions and he actually places quite a lot of weighting on to individual motivation. He isn't a defensive manager either. He's a manager who plays to win given the circumstances. And he is an idealist towards a particular brand of football that revolves around controlling a game. That isn't defensive. It isn't gung ho and unplanned mayhem either, but over the long term it will give us the best chance of earning the highest number of points.
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1) I'm not drawing conclusions after 10 games, I'm drawing conclusions after 50 Premiership games and loads of cup games on top of that.
2) Patience is needed in football and if I was bought into the style of play, tactics and team set-up I'd say time is needed if the results were poor. I think Liverpool are reaping the patience with Rogers who has suffered some poor. results early doors but you could see from day one how he wanted Liverpool to play.
3) Why do you think AVB isn't a defensive coach and why do you think he wants to play attacking football? To me like Rogers I've seen from day one how he wanted us to play and it's a monotonous possession monster eating space and freedom from the plate of football
4) I hope I look silly come the end of the season, in fact I hope AVB makes me look like a complete prick. I honestly do.
5) Norwich was "ok" it certainly wasn't spectacular and this was a team City spanked 7-0. They are a very poor Premiership side. But we played decent football. Swansea: what game were you watching? It took a penalty to score. From what I remember we didn't look like scoring from open play other than that Paulinho chance he fluffed. Saudi Sportswashing Machine was another dull, turgid performance 1st half which gave way to an entertaining second where we attacked desperately, but this only serves to highlight how the players can do it and don't need time to gel, they just need the rule book thrown out the window as it was in desperation at 1-0 down
 
Oh also you say the Graham thing is wrong but then say AVB I'd looking at a functional strategy to get the most points...that is Graham all over - statistical football, playing the percentages, a points machine! Zzzzzzzzzzzz
 
NWND said:
Oh also you say the Graham thing is wrong but then say AVB I'd looking at a functional strategy to get the most points...that is Graham all over - statistical football, playing the percentages, a points machine! Zzzzzzzzzzzz
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I think that we'll have a better idea about that at the end of the season. He created a way to give his best attacking player the freedom of the pitch last season, I see no reason why he wouldn't do the same with Eriksen and Lamela this year once they have settled in and are ready to have an impact. His Porto team hardly suggest that he is a conservative manager who does not want his teams to attack.
 
milo said:
I think that we'll have a better idea about that at the end of the season. He created a way to give his best attacking player the freedom of the pitch last season, I see no reason why he wouldn't do the same with Eriksen and Lamela this year once they have settled in and are ready to have an impact. His Porto team hardly suggest that he is a conservative manager who does not want his teams to attack.
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Did you watch his Porto team? In the Portuguese league they scored a tonne, but come on! The interesting thing for me about them was in the Europa they won. Very functional team, played strategically not to lose. They were a very powerful team.
 
didn't they score **** loads in the Europa as well? although i guess you could put that down to Falcao being an absolute Don
 
I think perhaps AVB is too cautious due to whats happened in the past and the presures he has of winning games. The thing is his style at the moment is counter productive.

I was on a training course for the last three days in Barcelona (****in hate that city) and one of the things I learnt (I think its Parkinsons princple but could be wrong) is that how you start your day off determines how your day will go throughout i.e. you start your day off moody and the chances are you will be. You start your day off enthusiastically and the chances are you will be enthusiastic during the day hence increase in productivity etc. They also say do your most difficult work in the morning as your brain is more alert. If you take that analogy and apply it to a game of football, it would stand to reason that surely we should go out play and pummel them (especially as the players brains are more alert hence more creative in the first period of a football game), get the couple of goals and then control the game (as my examples from last season below would suggest). I mentioned something similiar in another thread that we start games in that defensive mindset and will be and is difficult to get out of it during the game.

Last season there were games where we started brilliantly and all attacking (Swansea away sticks out - Southampton is another) then second half we sat back. This season it seems that as long as it is 0-0 we just do not play (Saudi Sportswashing Machine last weekend) and when we decide to play its actually dull and ineffective (Everton the week before).

Steff - you laughed at me when I said I think our play has deteriorated from last season but sadly I dont see any improvement. We have regressed in terms of style and effectiveness of our 'football'.
 
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billyiddo said:
didn't they score **** loads in the Europa as well? although i guess you could put that down to Falcao being an absolute Don
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They scored a lot in the Europa but against the better teams they faced and in the final against Braga they were very cautious
 
NWND said:
They scored a lot in the Europa but against the better teams they faced and in the final against Braga they were very cautious
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Aaaaaand at the final whistle they stepped up and lifted a trophy. I guess the Portuguese version of yourself didn't celebrate winning as he didn't like the stye of play in the final.
 
DHSF said:
I think perhaps AVB is too cautious due to whats happened in the past and the presures he has of winning games. The thing is his style at the moment is counter productive.

I was on a training course for the last three days in Barcelona (****in hate that city) and one of the things I learnt (I think its Parkinsons princple but could be wrong) is that how you start your day off determines how your day will go throughout i.e. you start your day off moody and the chances are you will be. You start your day off enthusiastically and the chances are you will be enthusiastic during the day hence increase in productivity etc. They also say do your most difficult work in the morning as your brain is more alert. If you take that analogy and apply it to a game of football, it would stand to reason that surely we should go out play and pummel them (especially as the players brains are more alert hence more creative in the first period of a football game), get the couple of goals and then control the game (as my examples from last season below would suggest). I mentioned something similiar in another thread that we start games in that defensive mindset and will be and is difficult to get out of it during the game.

Last season there were games where we started brilliantly and all attacking (Swansea away sticks out - Southampton is another) then second half we sat back. This season it seems that as long as it is 0-0 we just do not play (Saudi Sportswashing Machine last weekend) and when we decide to play its actually dull and ineffective (Everton the week before).

Steff - you laughed at me when I said I think our play has deteriorated from last season but sadly I dont see any improvement. We have regressed in terms of style and effectiveness of our 'football'.
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Absolutely this. Huge pressure to get results is causing an extremely cautious approach in our games.
 
DHSF said:
I think perhaps AVB is too cautious due to whats happened in the past and the presures he has of winning games. The thing is his style at the moment is counter productive.

I was on a training course for the last three days in Barcelona (****in hate that city) and one of the things I learnt (I think its Parkinsons princple but could be wrong) is that how you start your day off determines how your day will go throughout i.e. you start your day off moody and the chances are you will be. You start your day off enthusiastically and the chances are you will be enthusiastic during the day hence increase in productivity etc. They also say do your most difficult work in the morning as your brain is more alert. If you take that analogy and apply it to a game of football, it would stand to reason that surely we should go out play and pummel them (especially as the players brains are more alert hence more creative in the first period of a football game), get the couple of goals and then control the game (as my examples from last season below would suggest). I mentioned something similiar in another thread that we start games in that defensive mindset and will be and is difficult to get out of it during the game.

Last season there were games where we started brilliantly and all attacking (Swansea away sticks out - Southampton is another) then second half we sat back. This season it seems that as long as it is 0-0 we just do not play (Saudi Sportswashing Machine last weekend) and when we decide to play its actually dull and ineffective (Everton the week before).

Steff - you laughed at me when I said I think our play has deteriorated from last season but sadly I dont see any improvement. We have regressed in terms of style and effectiveness of our 'football'.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson's_law

Maybe this explains why AVB and his mate were looking at an exercise book to help them change tactics against Saudi Sportswashing Machine.

I never saw Fergie do anything like that.
 
Jordinho said:
I know some would rather win 4-3 than 1-0, but I don't really care as long as we win. Knowing we rarely concede is far more comforting than some of the gung ho teams of seasons past, where you knew that if we didn't score in the first half we would most likely lose.
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Yeah, these days we concede a goal and you know we won't win either.

I do agree about winning trumping everything though.
 
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