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AVB - I want him out now!

NWND said:
But everyone keeps saying that "yes, we're really mundane and boring and functional, but don't worry because this isn't AVB's real vision, its just him starting out and after a while he's going to unleash this monster attacking passing GHod-damn amazing tekkers barca-stylee attacking football all over the place, which will probably cause Arsene Wenger to self-combust leaving only a feint odor of formage and cause Adrian Durham to commit suicide by a sponsored mission to eat as much extra-hot nandos as he can stomach.....it's going to be great, just you wait, he's just trying to make us hard to beat in the meantime, but that's not the REAL plan, oooooooh no sir"

But what is the evidence of this?

Last season = dull, boring and like DMac says, if anything our ability to create chances and play creatively regressed as the season went on till the point where we were literally relying on Bale scoring ridiculous goal of the season contenders to win us games against poor opposition at the end of the season, in games that reminded me a lot of this season's games.

This season = continue as above, but if anything even more defensive. We're so tight at the back, but our ability to create chances bar one or two periods in one or two games has been almost non-existant. Basically its got to the point where we stifle games so much with our play that neither side is able to create a chance of note (see Everton game).

I mean, i'd love to have your optimism, but where is the evidence that AVB is planning this more progressive route? My concern is that the actual evidence in front of me points to him actually imposing this defensive stifling strategy FURTHER on the team and that actually we ARE seeing a progressive move to his style more and more over the last year and a half, but that this style he is heading towards is ultra-catennacio, whereby his thinking is purely statistical:

If you stop other teams from scoring there's only so many games you can lose.
If you stop other teams from scoring, the balance of probabilities says that you win a certain percentage of these games due to the chance circumstances of football.
If I get enouogh 1-0 wins and 0-0 draws, i'll get a points total that will at least stop me getting sacked on the balance of probabilities.

What evidence are you seeing of a progressive move away from ultra-defensive tactics to a more progressive style?

I don't think its a case of waiting for players to gel, or of AVB wanting first to make us solid, then to make us attacking.

I think its a case of AVB telling the players to play a certain way and drilling it into them, which leads to stiflied, mundane performance, where the players are restricted.

AVB has a lot in common with George Graham:

1) He's intelligent and articulate
2) He's smart and dapper
3) He's got a wry sense of humour
4) He's an ultra-tactician and he visibly enjoys nullifying other teams in a "Ha, i'm clever than you, i've stopped your tactics and got a sneaky 1-0 win, up yours" kind of way.
5) He appears to distrust 'flair' or 'eccentric' players, or players that are a bit maverik (GG's treatment of Ginola, AVB's sacking off of Van der Vaart, BAE and Ade).
6) Their preference for a double defensive midfield screen
7) Their rigid tactical style, which high pressure up the pitch.
8) A lack of goals from their teams due to the very rigid instructions and shapes their teams are set up (remember GG's four 0-0s in a row?)

I'll sit here and wait for AVB's attacking revolution, i've got a feeling i'll be waiting here for a while. Meanwhile, I think that the results will fail to justify the poor nature of football, as GG found out. The problem with setting up this way is that like Harry's opposite tactic of "go out and run about a bit" all out attacking free-for-all, it can only take you so far. By setting up so defensively, we struggle if teams do manage to take the lead against us, as its hard to turn yourself from a defensive stance into an attacking one, therefore you're almost accepting losing a few games every season.

Its football by percentages and I hate it.
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you know what, thats a brilliant post =D>

You make some very interesting observations. Not by ranting, the reason you started the thread is not a simple knee jerk. You intelligently and coherently back up why you would like to see a change.

I personally dont think its the right time for a change, and even if you are right in what you feel the direction we are heading in, id still like to see AVB finish this season off.

But i do enjoy you arguing your point. Great stuff
 
indianspur said:
you know what, thats a brilliant post =D>

You make some very interesting observations. Not by ranting, the reason you started the thread is not a simple knee jerk. You intelligently and coherently back up why you would like to see a change.

I personally dont think its the right time for a change, and even if you are right in what you feel the direction we are heading in, id still like to see AVB finish this season off.

But i do enjoy you arguing your point. Great stuff
Click to expand...

I agree with you. Well argued by NWND, but not the right time for a change at the moment. IMO . We need to see some improvement though, particularly how we are playing at home.
 
Thanks but my view is that a year and a half in things just aren't right and they're not working.

I think AVB is the wrong man for Spurs.

He's even openly criticised the fans.

The atmosphere at WHL is rubbish.

Why not just part early? What are the chances of it getting better? So many relationships I've had I knew it was gonna go tits up a few months in but you do that whole thing of I can't be bothered with the hassle of break up so you "see how it goes" for a bit before it just gets too much.

When I met my wife though it all just worked straight away and got better and better.

I say just cut loose now, life's too short for pretending this is going to end in anything other than a unceremonious sacking following a home defeat to a crappy team after the fans have got more and more hostile.
 
NWND, who do you want as a replacement then ??

and the atmosphere has been **** at WHL for years now, not just during AVBs reign
 
NWND said:
But everyone keeps saying that "yes, we're really mundane and boring and functional, but don't worry because this isn't AVB's real vision, its just him starting out and after a while he's going to unleash this monster attacking passing GHod-damn amazing tekkers barca-stylee attacking football all over the place, which will probably cause Arsene Wenger to self-combust leaving only a feint odor of formage and cause Adrian Durham to commit suicide by a sponsored mission to eat as much extra-hot nandos as he can stomach.....it's going to be great, just you wait, he's just trying to make us hard to beat in the meantime, but that's not the REAL plan, oooooooh no sir"

But what is the evidence of this?

Last season = dull, boring and like DMac says, if anything our ability to create chances and play creatively regressed as the season went on till the point where we were literally relying on Bale scoring ridiculous goal of the season contenders to win us games against poor opposition at the end of the season, in games that reminded me a lot of this season's games.

This season = continue as above, but if anything even more defensive. We're so tight at the back, but our ability to create chances bar one or two periods in one or two games has been almost non-existant. Basically its got to the point where we stifle games so much with our play that neither side is able to create a chance of note (see Everton game).

I mean, i'd love to have your optimism, but where is the evidence that AVB is planning this more progressive route? My concern is that the actual evidence in front of me points to him actually imposing this defensive stifling strategy FURTHER on the team and that actually we ARE seeing a progressive move to his style more and more over the last year and a half, but that this style he is heading towards is ultra-catennacio, whereby his thinking is purely statistical:

If you stop other teams from scoring there's only so many games you can lose.
If you stop other teams from scoring, the balance of probabilities says that you win a certain percentage of these games due to the chance circumstances of football.
If I get enouogh 1-0 wins and 0-0 draws, i'll get a points total that will at least stop me getting sacked on the balance of probabilities.

What evidence are you seeing of a progressive move away from ultra-defensive tactics to a more progressive style?

I don't think its a case of waiting for players to gel, or of AVB wanting first to make us solid, then to make us attacking.

I think its a case of AVB telling the players to play a certain way and drilling it into them, which leads to stiflied, mundane performance, where the players are restricted.

AVB has a lot in common with George Graham:

1) He's intelligent and articulate
2) He's smart and dapper
3) He's got a wry sense of humour
4) He's an ultra-tactician and he visibly enjoys nullifying other teams in a "Ha, i'm clever than you, i've stopped your tactics and got a sneaky 1-0 win, up yours" kind of way.
5) He appears to distrust 'flair' or 'eccentric' players, or players that are a bit maverik (GG's treatment of Ginola, AVB's sacking off of Van der Vaart, BAE and Ade).
6) Their preference for a double defensive midfield screen
7) Their rigid tactical style, which high pressure up the pitch.
8) A lack of goals from their teams due to the very rigid instructions and shapes their teams are set up (remember GG's four 0-0s in a row?)

I'll sit here and wait for AVB's attacking revolution, i've got a feeling i'll be waiting here for a while. Meanwhile, I think that the results will fail to justify the poor nature of football, as GG found out. The problem with setting up this way is that like Harry's opposite tactic of "go out and run about a bit" all out attacking free-for-all, it can only take you so far. By setting up so defensively, we struggle if teams do manage to take the lead against us, as its hard to turn yourself from a defensive stance into an attacking one, therefore you're almost accepting losing a few games every season.

Its football by percentages and I hate it.
Click to expand...

Some good points in this post. Particularly the VDV reference. I for one still can't believe we sold him, and no I'm still not buying that he wanted to leave to try and work on his marriage. He scored vital goals in big games, was one of the few players who you could genuinely disliked Woolwich, he had a winning mentality and was more of a number 10 than Sigurdsson, Holtby and even Eriksen. I've said many times that I prefer Eriksen to Holtby, but AVB likes Holtby because he works harder. We don't need every player in the team to run around like Carlos Tevez.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Some good points in this post. Particularly the VDV reference. I for one still can't believe we sold him, and no I'm still not buying that he wanted to leave to try and work on his marriage. He scored vital goals in big games, was one of the few players who you could genuinely disliked Woolwich, he had a winning mentality and was more of a number 10 than Sigurdsson, Holtby and even Eriksen. I've said many times that I prefer Eriksen to Holtby, but AVB likes Holtby because he works harder. We don't need every player in the team to run around like Carlos Tevez.
Click to expand...

I am fond of Holtby and would love it if he developed into a Carlos Tevez (as a footballer, not a 'human being').
 
NWND said:
Thanks but my view is that a year and a half in things just aren't right and they're not working.

I think AVB is the wrong man for Spurs.

He's even openly criticised the fans.

The atmosphere at WHL is rubbish.

Why not just part early? What are the chances of it getting better? So many relationships I've had I knew it was gonna go tits up a few months in but you do that whole thing of I can't be bothered with the hassle of break up so you "see how it goes" for a bit before it just gets too much.

When I met my wife though it all just worked straight away and got better and better.

I say just cut loose now, life's too short for pretending this is going to end in anything other than a unceremonious sacking following a home defeat to a crappy team after the fans have got more and more hostile.
Click to expand...

You might well be right. However, we have made a huge investment in AVB, his staff, his structure and his team. Like you, I am not yet convinced by him and indeed have seen no improvement whereby I would be confident (like some) that it will soon all come together. Nevertheless, unlike the girlfriend analogy, it is possible it might yet work out and on this basis alone I am prepared to give him some more time and wait and see.
 
NWND said:
AVB has a lot in common with George Graham:

1) He's intelligent and articulate
2) He's smart and dapper
3) He's got a wry sense of humour
4) He's an ultra-tactician and he visibly enjoys nullifying other teams in a "Ha, i'm clever than you, i've stopped your tactics and got a sneaky 1-0 win, up yours" kind of way.
5) He appears to distrust 'flair' or 'eccentric' players, or players that are a bit maverik (GG's treatment of Ginola, AVB's sacking off of Van der Vaart, BAE and Ade).
6) Their preference for a double defensive midfield screen
7) Their rigid tactical style, which high pressure up the pitch.
8) A lack of goals from their teams due to the very rigid instructions and shapes their teams are set up (remember GG's four 0-0s in a row?)
Click to expand...

Nice Gish Gallop - it almost makes me miss Gifter.

1) That's a good thing.
2) Irrelevant.
3) Irrelevant.
4) You mean, like, a manager? If you don't outsmart the other guy you lose (unless you have Chelsea/City funding). And isn't it wonderful we've got a tactician rather than just throwing our best 11 out and hoping for the best?
5) For flair see liabilities. All three are believed to have a problem with authority. I wouldn't criticise the manager of Rotherham for dropping Ade, let alone Spurs manager. Bale is a flair player who doesn't act like a cvnt (until the end) and AVB built the team around him.
6) To my knowledge we have never played Sandro and Capoue (our only two defensive midfielders) together.
7) Like Barca? Like Utd? They're both heavily drilled into the same thing.
8) Yep, AVB is definitely aiming not to score - I'm glad you discovered that tactic so early in his career before he goes and damages more teams.

Like I said, this thread makes Darwin sad.
 
scaramanga said:
Nice Gish Gallop - it almost makes me miss Gifter.

1) That's a good thing.
2) Irrelevant.
3) Irrelevant.
4) You mean, like, a manager? If you don't outsmart the other guy you lose (unless you have Chelsea/City funding). And isn't it wonderful we've got a tactician rather than just throwing our best 11 out and hoping for the best?
5) For flair see liabilities. All three are believed to have a problem with authority. I wouldn't criticise the manager of Rotherham for dropping Ade, let alone Spurs manager. Bale is a flair player who doesn't act like a cvnt (until the end) and AVB built the team around him.
6) To my knowledge we have never played Sandro and Capoue (our only two defensive midfielders) together.
7) Like Barca? Like Utd? They're both heavily drilled into the same thing.
8) Yep, AVB is definitely aiming not to score - I'm glad you discovered that tactic so early in his career before he goes and damages more teams.

Like I said, this thread makes Darwin sad.
Click to expand...

I'm glad you took the time to respond because I was struggling to see how those were apparentely good points being made!
 
Pirate55 said:
You might well be right. However, we have made a huge investment in AVB, his staff, his structure and his team. Like you, I am not yet convinced by him and indeed have seen no improvement whereby I would be confident (like some) that it will soon all come together. Nevertheless, unlike the girlfriend analogy, it is possible it might yet work out and on this basis alone I am prepared to give him some more time and wait and see.
Click to expand...

Haha so what you're saying is that she does your head in and you're not sure where it's going but you've spent half your wage in designer shops trying to keep her sweet and half your time listening to her **** and you don't want to have to do that whole single/dating thing so you're going to lump it for a while and see how things go? You never know she might have a nice side :)
 
scaramanga said:
Nice Gish Gallop - it almost makes me miss Gifter.

1) That's a good thing.
2) Irrelevant.
3) Irrelevant.
4) You mean, like, a manager? If you don't outsmart the other guy you lose (unless you have Chelsea/City funding). And isn't it wonderful we've got a tactician rather than just throwing our best 11 out and hoping for the best?
5) For flair see liabilities. All three are believed to have a problem with authority. I wouldn't criticise the manager of Rotherham for dropping Ade, let alone Spurs manager. Bale is a flair player who doesn't act like a cvnt (until the end) and AVB built the team around him.
6) To my knowledge we have never played Sandro and Capoue (our only two defensive midfielders) together.
7) Like Barca? Like Utd? They're both heavily drilled into the same thing.
8) Yep, AVB is definitely aiming not to score - I'm glad you discovered that tactic so early in his career before he goes and damages more teams.

Like I said, this thread makes Darwin sad.
Click to expand...

No it isn't wonderful having a master tactician it's boring!

You need a balance between tactics and drills and freedom of expression.

Think of Harry being the Netherlands
Think of AVB being North Korea
We really want to be Germany but if I had to choose between two lesser choices I know where I'd wanna live!!

Oh, I'd point out one thing, Bale isn't a flair player, he's not that creative. He's an awesome attacking force but he's quite predictable. It's just that what he does is kind of hard to stop! He was exciting to watch under Harry using his pace to bomb forward on the counter attack but AVB turned him into a function goal machine where he was actually fairly anonymous most of the time but was always liable to smash one in at some point.
 
NWND said:
Haha so what you're saying is that she does your head in and you're not sure where it's going but you've spent half your wage in designer shops trying to keep her sweet and half your time listening to her **** and you don't want to have to do that whole single/dating thing so you're going to lump it for a while and see how things go? You never know she might have a nice side :)
Click to expand...

You might be right. But that also might be the cynics view. I have a couple of friends who disliked each other initially, started going out, but then she wanted to break up with him over some trifle. I persuaded her not to do it as I thought they were well suited. Now, ten years later, happily married with two kids they are as happy as pigs in ****. So it CAN work out.
 
NWND said:
Haha so what you're saying is that she does your head in and you're not sure where it's going but you've spent half your wage in designer shops trying to keep her sweet and half your time listening to her **** and you don't want to have to do that whole single/dating thing so you're going to lump it for a while and see how things go? You never know she might have a nice side :)
Click to expand...

The girlfriend analogy is weak.
 
I know some would rather win 4-3 than 1-0, but I don't really care as long as we win. Knowing we rarely concede is far more comforting than some of the gung ho teams of seasons past, where you knew that if we didn't score in the first half we would most likely lose.
 
Jordinho said:
I know some would rather win 4-3 than 1-0, but I don't really care as long as we win. Knowing we rarely concede is far more comforting than some of the gung ho teams of seasons past, where you knew that if we didn't score in the first half we would most likely lose.
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Given the ethos of the Club - glory, entertaining style - there is something to wanting that type of play back, and I feel confident that will happen. What screwed us up the past few seasons was the end of season weakness where we threw away decent point advantages. We have defensive strength right now and the talent pool to create and score. We need patience with AVB. To sack him now would be costly in terms of paying off his contract and send us back to the not-too-distant days when there was close to a revolving door for managers/head coaches.
 
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