Antonio Conte - officially NOT the coach of THFC

[Grays_1890]

Our support (and it's the same with almost every top team now) has gone to brick, the only exception is the away fans (who have also fallen into the Levy out brick, it's a road to the same place)

Our support against Scum was brick, if you can't get up for a game against the Scum, when can you? I have season tickets, and there is lots of people around me that all they do is come to a game to bitch, 5 minutes into, bitch, bitch.

And it's not just us, City fans were booing at HT in our game against them, it's the same for every top side, if leading, great, anything else it's this "entertain me" brick.

The point is though it's not always been. Conteball has eroded alot of early season optimism and backing. Works hand in hand.

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[Grays_1890]

Lloris and others making frequent individual errors that are really difficult to influence with coaching is definitely a solid part of it.

That kind of thing will definitely impact confidence and belief. Creates more issues, difficult spiral to get out of. As, imo, Howe himself has experienced in the past.

Hopefully Conte can sort out some of these issues. Interesting that we've chosen to go with an attacking option and an attacking wing back with defensive issues as our primary targets this window.

I think if we start playing better overall and create more issues for opponents in the first half, stop going behind almost every game our defending will improve too.

But if we keep making those individual errors at a similar rate I'm not sure that will be enough.

I would say alot comes down to coaching, he moved Joelinton from left wing/forward to defensive midfield and made him an absolute beast there, has gone back to his original role and secured that above Saint-Max....Almiron was a joke before he rocked up so you can credit alot to Howe even if its subtle tactical changes and feel good/player management.

No one would have taken either player on their pre Howe form

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[Finney Is Back]

Yeah, because heaven forbid he actually coach, lets compare defenses

Spurs - Lloris (WC winner), Romero (WC Winner), Lenglet (Barcelona), Perisic (multiple winner in different leagues), Dier/Sanchez/Davies (players with multiple years of PL and CL experience)

Saudi Sportswashing Machine (1 goal conceded in last 11) - Pope (best club he's played for is Burnley, who would take him?), Scharr (31 year old journeyman, Saudi Sportswashing Machine his only PL club), Dan Burn (Brighton & Wigan), Botman (Lille), Trippier (now 32)

That Saudi Sportswashing Machine lineup held Arsenal scoreless, Spurs fans would freak out if we went after anyone but Trippier in that setup (and he's fudging 32 and was Davies level imo), Conte would likely take none of them, but somehow Howe has them actually defending.

Conte's PR really works ..

Not sure that is actually the case. I think many on here would've welcomed Botman at the club. I also listed Schar as a perhaps being a good option for a Bosman signing going into the summer before we had sacked Mourinho. Both are significantly better centre backs than Dier IMO which means either would likely start for us. Both also better than Sanchez or Davies. Saudi Sportswashing Machine also made a brilliant signing in Bruno Guimaraes who has been transformational for them (again mentioned on here by a few as a player who would've been a fantastic signing for us).

 

[Finney Is Back]

Romero is the only stand out better than the corresponding Saudi Sportswashing Machine players imo. And he's been injured most of the season. Perisic, sure, but not defensively.

Schar is a good player. Boatman too, was linked to us and several big clubs iirc. Pope is currently better than Lloris.

We should be doing better, but it's not like we have much better players player for player.

Some of it may be down to coaching. Howe has had very brittle teams at times in the past. Conte has had very solid teams in the past. I wouldn't put that much of it on the coaching.

I struggle to see why Perisic gets such an easy ride on here. All he seems to contribute are well taken corner kicks. His defending is poor and I've not seen anywhere near enough attacking output from him to believe that he would get into another team in the top 6.

Saudi Sportswashing Machine have benefitted this season from putting together a style of play in the second half of last season and then adding some quality first team players to that settled way of playing. They have combined this with the advantage of being the only one of the bigger teams not to have to cope with ridiculous amounts of games in the first half of the season due to having no European football.

Note that I expect Saudi Sportswashing Machine to miss out on CL football next season. I think they'll find it difficult as the pressure increases and they have less of a scheduling advantage in the second half of the season compared to the first. I also think that in the first half of the season teams have gone out to try to beat Saudi Sportswashing Machine instead of believing a point is a decent result. I think in this second half of the season you'll see more teams settling for a point against Saudi Sportswashing Machine and I'm not sure Saudi Sportswashing Machine will find a way to win those games.

 

[Grays_1890]

I struggle to see why Perisic gets such an easy ride on here. All he seems to contribute are well taken corner kicks. His defending is poor and I've not seen anywhere near enough attacking output from him to believe that he would get into another team in the top 6.

Saudi Sportswashing Machine have benefitted this season from putting together a style of play in the second half of last season and then adding some quality first team players to that settled way of playing. They have combined this with the advantage of being the only one of the bigger teams not to have to cope with ridiculous amounts of games in the first half of the season due to having no European football.

Because he rarely plays more than one game in any given position. LWB, doesn't play next game, LWB, then LWF...

Historically he is LWF, given that Sons had a bad year and that's Perisics best position it's not against the realms of rational thought that had he played there he would have done better, but again goes back to chances and contuinty from the manager's

An obviously class player who hasn't played I'm his best role because of the manager not wanting to make glaring changes needed. That's why he gets understanding more than an easy ride

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[Finney Is Back]

Because he rarely plays more than one game in any given position. LWB, doesn't play next game, LWB, then LWF...

Historically he is LWF, given that Sons had a bad year and that's Perisics best position it's not ouagaisnt thr realms of rational thought that had he played there he would have done better, but again goes back to chances and contuinty from the manager's

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I've not seen him do anything at either LWB or LWF that makes me think he is deserving of a place in the team. it wouldn't surprise me if we allowed him to leave this summer to save the wages. Usually with signings from overseas I don't judge them until the second season but we don't really have the luxury of doing that with Perisic considering his age.

 

[Lilbaz]

I struggle to see why Perisic gets such an easy ride on here. All he seems to contribute are well taken corner kicks. His defending is poor and I've not seen anywhere near enough attacking output from him to believe that he would get into another team in the top 6.

Saudi Sportswashing Machine have benefitted this season from putting together a style of play in the second half of last season and then adding some quality first team players to that settled way of playing. They have combined this with the advantage of being the only one of the bigger teams not to have to cope with ridiculous amounts of games in the first half of the season due to having no European football.

Note that I expect Saudi Sportswashing Machine to miss out on CL football next season. I think they'll find it difficult as the pressure increases and they have less of a scheduling advantage in the second half of the season compared to the first. I also think that in the first half of the season teams have gone out to try to beat Saudi Sportswashing Machine instead of believing a point is a decent result. I think in this second half of the season you'll see more teams settling for a point against Saudi Sportswashing Machine and I'm not sure Saudi Sportswashing Machine will find a way to win those games.

Personally will always give new players time to settle. At least a season.

 

[Grays_1890]

I've not seen him do anything at either LWB or LWF that makes me think he is deserving of a place in the team. it wouldn't surprise me if we allowed him to leave this summer to save the wages. Usually with signings from overseas I don't judge them until the second season but we don't really have the luxury of doing that with Perisic considering his age.

I haven't seen him for long enough consistently enough to judge negatively on him and know enough about his qualities to know that given a chance on his preferred role we would have probably seen it. Where as I know for sure Sons been trash this season because he has been given every opportunity to keep his role (and I love Son)

So for me I give him the benefit of the doubt and question the manager's decision there and believe its not exactly an irrational view TBH

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[Mr Gogolak]

Romero is the only stand out better than the corresponding Saudi Sportswashing Machine players imo. And he's been injured most of the season. Perisic, sure, but not defensively.

Schar is a good player. Boatman too, was linked to us and several big clubs iirc. Pope is currently better than Lloris.

We should be doing better, but it's not like we have much better players player for player.

Some of it may be down to coaching. Howe has had very brittle teams at times in the past. Conte has had very solid teams in the past. I wouldn't put that much of it on the coaching.

I'm not certain you can assess a defence without look at the midifeld. If we played two Roy Keanes in front of our current back 3, we might be doing better defensively. It's all about finding the right balance for the whole team. Sure, defensively, we haven't set the world on fire but we've scored a decent amount of goals. It's not so easy as 'I have better like-for-like players, so I should be getting better' results.

If you play an attacking player at wing back (which is what Conte's been doing with Perisic), then you need to compensate for that somehow and that's probably what explains his insistence on playing Royal. If Porro comes in, we might see a change in central midfield.

Quite frankly, it's not really the results that bother me. They're not tremendous but they're aren't that bad either. We had a good start to the season. No, it's the football that's pretty dire...

 

[parklane1]

I've not seen him do anything at either LWB or LWF that makes me think he is deserving of a place in the team. it wouldn't surprise me if we allowed him to leave this summer to save the wages. Usually with signings from overseas I don't judge them until the second season but we don't really have the luxury of doing that with Perisic considering his age.

I tend to agree with this, there is no doubt he has been a great player in his time but i must admit he has not really impressed me since he has been here. Steady player but i was hoping for more from him.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I struggle to see why Perisic gets such an easy ride on here. All he seems to contribute are well taken corner kicks. His defending is poor and I've not seen anywhere near enough attacking output from him to believe that he would get into another team in the top 6.

Saudi Sportswashing Machine have benefitted this season from putting together a style of play in the second half of last season and then adding some quality first team players to that settled way of playing. They have combined this with the advantage of being the only one of the bigger teams not to have to cope with ridiculous amounts of games in the first half of the season due to having no European football.

Note that I expect Saudi Sportswashing Machine to miss out on CL football next season. I think they'll find it difficult as the pressure increases and they have less of a scheduling advantage in the second half of the season compared to the first. I also think that in the first half of the season teams have gone out to try to beat Saudi Sportswashing Machine instead of believing a point is a decent result. I think in this second half of the season you'll see more teams settling for a point against Saudi Sportswashing Machine and I'm not sure Saudi Sportswashing Machine will find a way to win those games.

Saudi Sportswashing Machine don’t actually score many goals
They haven’t addressed that IMO

 

[thfcsteff]

It is clear that our defense has suffered through the continual churn of selections ahead of it. I am not sure how many times we have managed to field PEH, Bentancur, Dek, Kane and Son together, but I'd wager it is far less than the last 16 games of last season. When those 5 are in, everything flows better/keeps pressure off. You'd also have to say Davies/Dier/Romero behind that -when playing consistently- are fine for top 4. The other major factor has been Lloris falling off a cliff. If you're unsteady in front of you and utterly rocky behind, you're going to make mistakes.

 

[Lilbaz]

It is clear that our defense has suffered through the continual churn of selections ahead of it. I am not sure how many times we have managed to field PEH, Bentancur, Dek, Kane and Son together, but I'd wager it is far less than the last 16 games of last season. When those 5 are in, everything flows better/keeps pressure off. You'd also have to say Davies/Dier/Romero behind that -when playing consistently- are fine for top 4. The other major factor has been Lloris falling off a cliff. If you're unsteady in front of you and utterly rocky behind, you're going to make mistakes.

Said in the summer dier and davies are fine players but i'd want them on the bench. New gk agreed. Although i'd keep lloris as backup. No pressure i think he could step in now and again.

 

[Finney Is Back]

It is clear that our defense has suffered through the continual churn of selections ahead of it. I am not sure how many times we have managed to field PEH, Bentancur, Dek, Kane and Son together, but I'd wager it is far less than the last 16 games of last season. When those 5 are in, everything flows better/keeps pressure off. You'd also have to say Davies/Dier/Romero behind that -when playing consistently- are fine for top 4. The other major factor has been Lloris falling off a cliff. If you're unsteady in front of you and utterly rocky behind, you're going to make mistakes.

I think only one of those three defenders would start for the other 5 members of the traditional ‘top 6’

 

[Raziel]

It is clear that our defense has suffered through the continual churn of selections ahead of it. I am not sure how many times we have managed to field PEH, Bentancur, Dek, Kane and Son together, but I'd wager it is far less than the last 16 games of last season. When those 5 are in, everything flows better/keeps pressure off. You'd also have to say Davies/Dier/Romero behind that -when playing consistently- are fine for top 4. The other major factor has been Lloris falling off a cliff. If you're unsteady in front of you and utterly rocky behind, you're going to make mistakes.

There was a stat that said the below lineup (think it was for the Fulham game?) had actually never started a game for us. If true, it says something.

Lloris

Doherty (would be Porro now) - Romero - Dier - Lenglet - Perisic

Bentancur - PEH

Kulu - Kane - Son

 

[thfcsteff]

I think only one of those three defenders would start for the other 5 members of the traditional ‘top 6’

Wasn’t especially the point I was making. I don’t disagree FWIW…

 

[braineclipse]

It is clear that our defense has suffered through the continual churn of selections ahead of it. I am not sure how many times we have managed to field PEH, Bentancur, Dek, Kane and Son together, but I'd wager it is far less than the last 16 games of last season. When those 5 are in, everything flows better/keeps pressure off. You'd also have to say Davies/Dier/Romero behind that -when playing consistently- are fine for top 4. The other major factor has been Lloris falling off a cliff. If you're unsteady in front of you and utterly rocky behind, you're going to make mistakes.

Agreed.

Hopefully we'll see better performances for the rest of the season. But several of the reasons you mention are (to varying degrees) quite likely to continue to be an issue for the rest of the season. So my hope is somewhat qualified.

Think we mostly need to get our confidence back to a higher level.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

I think only one of those three defenders would start for the other 5 members of the traditional ‘top 6’

What did Leicester's defence look like when they won the PL? Huth, Wes Morgan, Fuchs and Simpson? Which one of these would any of the traditional Top 6 take? On the other hand, they had Kanté at the top of his game just in front of them.

 

[Raziel]

Agreed.

Hopefully we'll see better performances for the rest of the season. But several of the reasons you mention are (to varying degrees) quite likely to continue to be an issue for the rest of the season. So my hope is somewhat qualified.

Think we mostly need to get our confidence back to a higher level.

Really hard to have confidence when your manager is constantly bleating about how he doesn't have the tools to compete and is years away.

He's done a great job at it, 11 players and about ~£280M in committed investments in 3 windows (only 1 major one) and the fans are totally convinced "poor Conte, how could he ever be expected to play even watchable football with these players" (completely ignoring we are a better side than the one that made top 4 last season).

There is zero chance that isn't affecting the players mentally.

 

[braineclipse]

Really hard to have confidence when your manager is constantly bleating about how he doesn't have the tools to compete and is years away.

He's done a great job at it, 11 players and about ~£280M in committed investments in 3 windows (only 1 major one) and the fans are totally convinced "poor Conte, how could he ever be expected to play even watchable football with these players" (completely ignoring we are a better side than the one that made top 4 last season).

There is zero chance that isn't affecting the players mentally.

I think that description of what fans think at best describes a small minority of fans. Certainly doesn't seem to fit what most people on here are saying.

I think what Conte says publically may have the effect you describe. But I also think too much weight gets put on what managers say in public because that's what we and the media have access to.

I think realistic expectations for both development now and time frames can be helpful for the players. I'm not convinced the alternatives would be better. Confidence mostly comes from playing well and winning.