Ange in or out?

[Legohamster]

I'm kinda in that boat....you also have to remember, even when we've been in a better space than we are now, we've rarely played well in an away game in Europe

Think there is the real chance that the players may just ignore his tactics and band together themselves

 

[fernadez]

It's not solely blaming the players, the manager isn't showing enough but a lot of the players aren't good enough. Romero is apparently our best CB, he has always been error prone - this isn't something that has just happened since Ange arrived. Our CMs are average and you can't just put that on Ange because Bergvall already looks levels above in quality and will expect Gray to look the same there next season. Our wingers are not good enough, and our CF is a work horse but Richi is more likely to score goals than him but then he is hardly ever fit enough to be on the pitch Our manager clearly isn't good enough, but neither is the squad....

Good enough for what though. If we're saying they're all average then we should be comfortably midtable.

 

[fernadez]

Mainly because the perception is that they're not good enough because they are from a lesser league or country or that they're cheap levy buys.

It is a conundrum because like you there are certain players past and present that I think we overrate, in fact some so much that I think it's almost borders on self abuse at times.

We certainly aren't any different from any other fanbase, there's gubers everywhere, but for me we are almost a bi polar fanbase.

I get the reasoning but they are two players that have been held in high regard for years. Tonali was spoke of as Pirlo's heir (even though they're nothing alike) and Asencio was at Madrid.

Big difference between them and Ndjie in my opinion.

Also we've bought well recently especially from abroad. I'm looking at the money spent on Maddison and Johnson before I look at what we've done abroad.

 

[Mikey10]

Tbf ...I thought that at the time BUT if you look at the replay (not the freeze frame) Larsen was slowly walking back and way offside after a failed Wolves attack. We attacked, it was only our sudden giving away of the ball that sprung him into life, he dropped 10yds into that space to be onside.

It's not good....but that freeze frame makes it look like he's running forward from a normal position and just not being picked up.

I think the long ball later from their defender was worse...straight down the middle to a unmarked CF...only Djeds pace coming across saved us.

Edit: what I would say is ...almost always the missing one is Romero in the freeze frames. Now, if that's because of tactics or allowed wandering..then that trade off is bad judgement from the manager ...if it's by choice of Romero he needs reigning in or be more savvy.

Just watched the MOTD2 analysis…grim viewing.

 

[Grays_1890]

This can’t be the latest rationale for our league performances. There is 3m at stake for a league place. For us to continue losing in the league is costing the club significant money. West Ham and Wolves overtake us and that’s another 6m gone.

There is a real risk of us finishing 17th. That’s incomprehensible to me. We’re likely to finish bottom six for the first time ever in the Premier League. It’s not acceptable on any level that players don’t apply themselves because they’re saving themselves for Europe. That’s a dereliction of duty and an insult to match going fans.

I don’t buy it personally. I just think the whole thing has gotten to the stage where everyone knows the game is up and we’re sleepwalking to the worst possible season. The only reason I can see that we haven’t pulled the trigger is that we wanted to give him a fair crack at it and there is a clause in his contract that allows for instant dismissal without a pay out if we don’t make Europe. Nothing else makes a lick of sense to me.

Me either, I get the changes make for a weaker side, they don not explain what we are seeing fully as a side BECAUSE its happening when we put out our full strength side too.

And I don't agree that other clubs are struggling to the point of what we showed yesterday, that wasn't just about making changes to the side, thats a team that devoid of everything you can possibly name.

I would be more inclined to agree with the performances in the EL backed it up to warrant the call of "we are going full pelt".

It also beggars belief that people believe we can operate in a way where our form is absolutely on the floor but we are somehow going to turn it on randomly on a Thursday night........

........sheeesh

 

[Bishop]

Lack of awareness yes I'd not argue with that.
It's not my doubts I'm projecting, it's what I see in others, there were plenty of people pointing to ndombele and his past as a potential problem.

They "used to be" is just exactly the type of comments I would expect from a certain section of our fans, just like "never kicked on".
It's almost like they ended up here so can't be much kop.

To be honest I think I'm a bit of a different thinker on these matters because I don't care where a player or manager has come from or their relative prestige level. I find all of that kind of irrelevant and only partially useful to tell you something of a person's competence but only with context.

I have never and never will be someone who argues that we should pay x amount for a superstar just to please some sort of fan pride I just know if a player has the right attributes and the technical ability then all of the extras are whatever, I don't really care.

So for me what I see is you can sign a player from Sligo Rovers (Coleman) and the fans might have some doubts but once they see that players qualities any doubts will be a long forgotten memory.

Ultimately the only that matters are performances, not origin, or experience or even age. Just quality or lack thereof.

 

[harr1984]

Good enough for what though. If we're saying they're all average then we should be comfortably midtable.

I don't think it's an exact science. Because of injuries we have had to play the majority of the season with mish mash teams (and now due to EL focus) and when the squad isn't that great we are obviously going to underperform. Yes I agree we should be midtable still, but there have been plenty of comments this season about how this squad should be comfortably top 6 which I would question even if we had a clean bill of health all season (anywhere from 6-8 IMO is par) but when we have had the ridiculous injuries we have experienced it's not so easy to just state as a matter of fact 'We should be in x position'. But of course, we should not be sitting as low down as we are - I don't think anyone would dispute that....

 

[veryoldspur]

Not going to dispute your opinion but the fact is all the eggs are in the Europa basket and have been for some time, the almost fully fit squad (minus one of our few genuinely decent players) is only getting properly played in the Europa. The players rightly or wrongly are reigning it in for PL games (albeit some of them just aren't good enough anyway). A back 4 of Gray, Romero, Davies, Spence was always going to be useless. No excuses Thursday, it will be full pelt with our full strength team....

He didn't have to play that back four. The question is, was a team better player for player than Wolves, and we all know it was. Understandably our players have no faith in Ange's ridiculous tactics, and aren't playing for either him or the club. It you're honest with yourself you know as well as I do we will go out of the EL on Thursday, and on the remote chance we don't we won't win it anyway.

 

[veryoldspur]

To be honest I think I'm a bit of a different thinker on these matters because I don't care where a player or manager has come from or their relative prestige level. I find all of that kind of irrelevant and only partially useful to tell you something of a person's competence but only with context.

I have never and never will be someone who argues that we should pay x amount for a superstar just to please some sort of fan pride I just know if a player has the right attributes and the technical ability then all of the extras are whatever, I don't really care.

So for me what I see is you can sign a player from Sligo Rovers (Coleman) and the fans might have some doubts but once they see that players qualities any doubts will be a long forgotten memory.

Ultimately the only that matters are performances, not origin, or experience or even age. Just quality or lack thereof.

On that principal would you mind someone performing surgery on you who hasn't tried it before, after all he may be really good at it. Being a football manager is like any other job, you should start at the bottom and work your way up. Managing the only team in Scotland is distant from managing what is considered a top team in English premiership. I understand we had few options, and I don't blame Levy for giving him a go, but it was obvious by the end of last season he wasn't up to it.

 

[glasgowspur]

To be honest I think I'm a bit of a different thinker on these matters because I don't care where a player or manager has come from or their relative prestige level. I find all of that kind of irrelevant and only partially useful to tell you something of a person's competence but only with context.

I have never and never will be someone who argues that we should pay x amount for a superstar just to please some sort of fan pride I just know if a player has the right attributes and the technical ability then all of the extras are whatever, I don't really care.

So for me what I see is you can sign a player from Sligo Rovers (Coleman) and the fans might have some doubts but once they see that players qualities any doubts will be a long forgotten memory.

Ultimately the only that matters are performances, not origin, or experience or even age. Just quality or lack thereof.

My knowledge of players outside spurs, of tactics or football generally isn't good enough to judge players, I tend to wait and see how they perform for us, for our coach in the system we are playing.
There's plenty of players who have failed or succeeded at one club and moved and thrived or bombed.

 

[monkeybarry]

Not a bad manager - has win trophies in all his jobs. Great motivator and psychologist. Also has a philosophy and principles. That it has t clicked together with us doesn’t mean it isn’t there. The biggest annoyance from me is the press. It is t sophisticated enough. Leaves us exposed and our forwards shagged. But Ange likes to play one way - which I respect as it keep things clear for players. Mid season he’s not going to change and this way of playing does work. The press was similar with Poch - whose results dropped off when he tried to evolve away from pressing all game.

As for pushing what is possible to the limit: isn’t that what makes all successful winning sports teams and individuals! Why wouldn’t you want that!?

Won trophies at a lower level. And that's fantastic. That doesn't mean he's a PL manager. I'll agree he's a good manager at a certain level - this level looks like too much of a step up, so the "good manager" argument doesn't extrapolate to a reason for him to stay.

A good manager adapts. The school yard press gets destroyed in the PL. To keep doing it for two years is not good management. If he wants to succeed at this level, he needs to adapt. He has shown he can't/won't. He will go back to his and succeed doing what he does. The PL is the hardest there is.

Re; pushing the limits. The same rationale as the school yard press applies - great teams do it, and win with it. Poor ones do it and lose 17 times in a season. I have no issue pushing the limits, but it has to work; otherwise it's pushing the wrong limits. I have no issue with him and THFC trying it - but is hasn't worked, over a long enough period to make a judgement. He also won't change. So the pushing the limits is a failure. This is sport, it's about results.

 

[monkeybarry]

Ive said it before, I honestly think it is so he cant have Ange say "you sacked me in my second season and I always win something." Thursday is a massive game for all of us. For Levy, Ange and us fans. We all want the same thing, but part of me thinks, Levy is waiting until it is confirmed we cannot win something in his second season, as to not make the same mistake that he did with Mourinho.

There is, of course, an alternative - Levy is backing Ange to deliver.
He's said he'll win something in his second season - cool!!! Go do it!! I look forward to it.

Yeah, screw it - Ange In, whilst we are still in the Europa. He's said he'll win - I'll trust him on that, and hold him to it.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Won trophies at a lower level. And that's fantastic. That doesn't mean he's a PL manager. I'll agree he's a good manager at a certain level - this level looks like too much of a step up, so the "good manager" argument doesn't extrapolate to a reason for him to stay.

Who is suggest he should stay?

A good manager adapts. The school yard press gets destroyed in the PL. To keep doing it for two years is not good management. If he wants to succeed at this level, he needs to adapt. He has shown he can't/won't. He will go back to his and succeed doing what he does. The PL is the hardest there is.

Agreed. As stated this is an issue for me. Poch’s press wasn’t all that different though.

Re; pushing the limits. The same rationale as the school yard press applies - great teams do it, and win with it. Poor ones do it and lose 17 times in a season. I have no issue pushing the limits, but it has to work; otherwise it's pushing the wrong limits. I have no issue with him and THFC trying it - but is hasn't worked, over a long enough period to make a judgement. He also won't change. So the pushing the limits is a failure. This is sport, it's about results.

I think you’re arguing against yourself on this. No one seems to think he should stay on. Even if we win the EL and Postecoglou becomes the most successful Spurs manager in a generation, I’d still replace him personally. That is not to say I think he’s a mug or has no ability. Nuno was similarly ridiculed. Who are the mugs now?

 

[monkeybarry]

Who is suggest he should stay?

Agreed. As stated this is an issue for me. Poch’s press wasn’t all that different though.


I think you’re arguing against yourself on this. No one seems to think he should stay on. Even if we win the EL and Postecoglou becomes the most successful Spurs manager in a generation, I’d still replace him personally. That is not to say I think he’s a mug or has no ability. Nuno was similarly ridiculed. Who are the mugs now?

-Your post that I replied to stated...

" I would give him more time. He has got us passing and attacking in a way that I've not seen us play before."
If that isnt a position that you want him to stay.....

-Poch's results were different though. Also, he got sacked....

-No, I'm arguing that his pushing the limits is naive, doesn't produce results and is no basis for a "give him more time" rationale or a comparison to successful sports people that push the limits.

 

[Lilbaz]

On that principal would you mind someone performing surgery on you who hasn't tried it before, after all he may be really good at it. Being a football manager is like any other job, you should start at the bottom and work your way up. Managing the only team in Scotland is distant from managing what is considered a top team in English premiership. I understand we had few options, and I don't blame Levy for giving him a go, but it was obvious by the end of last season he wasn't up to it.

The greatest surgeon in the world had his first surgery at some point.
As did the worst.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Think there is the real chance that the players may just ignore his tactics and band together themselves

Imagine if Gray and Spence lock Ange in the kit room an hour before KO, take charge, and guide us to a famous victory. It could be this generation's Kane and Mason 2014 coup.

 

[Daveeeeeeeed]

The greatest surgeon in the world had his first surgery at some point.
As did the worst.

I had my greatest sex on my first night, 26 years later and I am still having that same sex.

Also, that first sex was less than a minute long.

 

[Bishop]

On that principal would you mind someone performing surgery on you who hasn't tried it before, after all he may be really good at it. Being a football manager is like any other job, you should start at the bottom and work your way up. Managing the only team in Scotland is distant from managing what is considered a top team in English premiership. I understand we had few options, and I don't blame Levy for giving him a go, but it was obvious by the end of last season he wasn't up to it.

In football terms I wouldn't call Ange someone who has never operated before, moreso he's a junior doctor be asked to step up to consultancy and failing. No shame in that, I don't begrudge Levy et all for employing him. You have to gamble and sometimes it doesn't work. At this point it's clear for me Ange isn't going to work but that not because he's only managed in Scotland, its because he's tactically inflexible and uncompromising.

My main takeaway I suppose is to say that I'm not someone who buys into the whole "prem proven" adage. None of Prep, Klopp, Poch, Frank, Silva, Mourinho, Fergie etc etc etc were PL proven until they were given a chance and provided themselves capable.

 

[Lilbaz]

I had my greatest sex on my first night, 26 years later and I am still having that same sex.

Also, that first sex was less than a minute long.

You had sex the day you were born?

Pretty sure that's illegal.

 

[Daveeeeeeeed]

.