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Ange in or out?
- Thread starter Yiddo
- Start date
veryoldspur
Øyvind Leonhardsen
They don't need to be prem proven, but managed at a decent level. I agree, I don't even mind the club taking a risk, but Ange should have been gone at the end of last season
Bishop
Jimmy Neighbour
I wouldn't have sacked him at the end of last season. I thought last season had some ups and downs but I felt it was ultimately a successful season given where we had come from and the new system Ange was implementing.
I did want to see progression which is all I ever ask, but right at the very beginning of this year I saw too many signs that had all the negatives of last season. I'll be honest the re-signing of Werner and lack of player to put Johnson on the bench have me massive misgivings even before a ball had been kicked. Then with the first few games it just felt like Ange hadn't learnt anything, so yeah for me I've always felt he should get this entire season to show some steps towards progression but it's not happened and no way should get another season. He's doesn't learn, he doesn't adapt so I'm out.
SpurMeUp
David Ginola
It’s a misquote. I said IF the press wasn’t so amateur I’d give him more time. You’re basically arguing against yourself
I think Ange and his team are a bit naive. Believing in a pure why of playing and not hassling refs etc. I respect it, but without results it’s fruitless.
Muttley
Alan Hutton
You have to ask yourself why we fell for Ange in the first place. For me a couple of things sprung to mind.
The football he played - we had suffered since Poch with some of the dullest football that we'd seen for years through Jose, Nuno and Conte. Then suddenly we saw Spurs players playing one-touch, two-touch football. We saw pass and move and we saw an incredible commitment from the players to dominate teams. It was actually quite exciting after years of dullness. That first pre-season and his opening 10 league games were a breath of fresh air.
The words that Ange spoke - he said everything we wanted to hear. People fell for his charm. He was a great philosopher, life coach and we enjoyed his sense of humour. We felt like we finally had someone that we could trust with very capable hands. He seemed a good fit.
I find it quite interesting how wrong we were on both counts.
The tactics had vulnerabilities from day 1 and now we've seen so much of his football that we sort of expect it week in, week out. His tactics put his players in too many positions where they will make an individual error and our team gets punished over and over. Even when we think we're in the ascendency, the sucker punch always comes.
I think we've also realised there is a fair bit of hot air with Ange. He is often talking well at this philosophical level and makes some great points but you wonder how much substance there is behind his words. His job is to manage, nurture and optimise a squad of players. We're also discovering that he may be quite cold and stand-offish with people for the majority of the time. Perhaps that is why he's never managed to build a complete team of coaches that follow him around like other managers have. It makes you worry about his leadership skills with elite professionals who you need to get to perform at their peak. Instead, our players heads look totally scrambled to me.
I still feel the direction of travel is good at the club. I don't hold any current angst to Munn, Levy, Lange etc. I think we need to let that model evolve, but we do need to make the manager change for next season. I just hope we can do it efficiently and non-emotionally.
The football he played - we had suffered since Poch with some of the dullest football that we'd seen for years through Jose, Nuno and Conte. Then suddenly we saw Spurs players playing one-touch, two-touch football. We saw pass and move and we saw an incredible commitment from the players to dominate teams. It was actually quite exciting after years of dullness. That first pre-season and his opening 10 league games were a breath of fresh air.
The words that Ange spoke - he said everything we wanted to hear. People fell for his charm. He was a great philosopher, life coach and we enjoyed his sense of humour. We felt like we finally had someone that we could trust with very capable hands. He seemed a good fit.
I find it quite interesting how wrong we were on both counts.
The tactics had vulnerabilities from day 1 and now we've seen so much of his football that we sort of expect it week in, week out. His tactics put his players in too many positions where they will make an individual error and our team gets punished over and over. Even when we think we're in the ascendency, the sucker punch always comes.
I think we've also realised there is a fair bit of hot air with Ange. He is often talking well at this philosophical level and makes some great points but you wonder how much substance there is behind his words. His job is to manage, nurture and optimise a squad of players. We're also discovering that he may be quite cold and stand-offish with people for the majority of the time. Perhaps that is why he's never managed to build a complete team of coaches that follow him around like other managers have. It makes you worry about his leadership skills with elite professionals who you need to get to perform at their peak. Instead, our players heads look totally scrambled to me.
I still feel the direction of travel is good at the club. I don't hold any current angst to Munn, Levy, Lange etc. I think we need to let that model evolve, but we do need to make the manager change for next season. I just hope we can do it efficiently and non-emotionally.
glasgowspur
Colin Calderwood
I think he was brought in to do a lot of dirty work behind the scenes that if backfired could put a big black mark against a potentially good manager.
We got rid of a lot of deadwood, transitioned away from a talismanic and generational forward and made steps to create a better culture at the club with a core of young and talented players.
He tried to play good football to ease the ride, it didn't work, possibly the expectations after the first 10 games worked against him.
I don't think he was ever seen as a long term answer.
thfcsteff
Tony Galvin
When we have been able to field VdV and Romero, we have a good defensive record (Milo was the one who highlit that). However we'd all agree seasons and structures cannot collapse on the fitness of two players. Looking back at it all, I think teams hadn't sussed us the first half of last season, and once they did -once they really sat back and countered - we found it tougher.
I know you and others have bemoaned the lack of adaptability. Which is more than fair. I remember Ange said he'd never compromise his philosophy, so personally, I think the worst thing he has done was try and adapt the deployment of his system during the injury crisis. When we lost to Chelsea last season in 'that' game, I thought the whole point of still going high line was to drum into them that this is what he does? Yet he ended up modifying it (I suppose he had to) and now that players are back, he cannot get them to shift back to 'his' thing. The players look bewildered. He's definitely done. Let's just get Thursday over with. Of course I hope, but the hope is slimmer than I've ever been mate!!!!!
Muttley
Alan Hutton
Perhaps I can be convinced otherwise but I've always felt is that we've never seen the good stats last long enough to be that statistically relevant. It's almost like Ange has had 6 phases of management.
1) Those first 10 games after he joined
2) Chelsea onwards / last season's injury crisis including the AFCON / Asia periods
3) The respectable end of season
4) The start of this season - like a sin wave on consistency, but defensively better
5) The long, drawn out injury crisis / fatigue
6) The period we're in now....all about the EL push
What I would say through all those periods is that an Ange system does find the back of the opposition net. I cling to that one as if it disappears, we're in trouble.
Now I'm not sure how the Romero / VDV partnership really threads through all of those 6 phases but I would always think we're better with them in the side.
monkeybarry
Steffen Freund
Oh wait, it is a mistake quote.... whoops!!It’s a misquote. I said IF the press wasn’t so amateur I’d give him more time. You’re basically arguing against yourself
I think Ange and his team are a bit naive. Believing in a pure why of playing and not hassling refs etc. I respect it, but without results it’s fruitless.
(I'll be going now. I left my coat in the taxi...)
Bedfordspurs
Joe Kinnear
Going to 3 at the back vs Everton was criminal because it showed he would change things …, and shock, horror it massively backfired
You can have principles and shout about them but as soon as you change them once the doubt kicks in
Muttley
Alan Hutton
That was actually quite thought provoking. Ange showed us he couldn't even make a simple formation change that managers make up and down the country every single weekend. Some even make it in the middle of games. I couldn't figure out how it was so difficult for Ange.
Silly McSilly Face
Bobby Mimms
I think it boils down to the fact that better players always make you better no matter who you have in charge or how bad the tactics are. Romero + VDV versus Dragusin + Davies/Gray is going to shift you up the table. Could be from 16th to 14th like we've seen this season. Could be shifting from top 10 to top 6 with some good quality coaching and tactics.
Muttley
Alan Hutton
Definitely. Redknapp was a master at letting his best players go to work on the opposition. When you have a Ledley, Modric, Bale etc in your team magic can happen.
I do fear though that Ange's system can make some pretty decent players look ordinary. We can talk about centre halves all day, but if you're not getting a focused 6 to protect them then you live with those consequences. You also can't replaced a sprinter like VDV with a plodder like Davies and hold the defence on the halfway line. I'm pretty certain Romero doesn't want to do it either. It is not his natural game.
Bingo!
You want Romero coming out to shut down attacks, not running backwards trying to catch someone
You want Son running into space with option to turn inside to shoot, not constantly asking him to operate in overcrowded wing spaces.
You want Solanke to be a poacher (his heatmap last year was mostly around penalty spot), instead of a workhorse pivot.
List could go on, but it remains the same
- The system uses players ability to sprint/run, which means all the opposition has to do is match you in effort
- It doesn't allow them to just be a better player than what opposition has (which should be the case against 12+ sides in the PL)
Why the fudge would you spend 300M to try to outrun people?
thfcsteff
Tony Galvin
Digging deep, I think this is absolutely the one thing more than any which has undone him personally.
thfcsteff
Tony Galvin
Mate.
We had a gooner clam win a trophy with us. Nothing is lower than that!
Ange would be a delight.
HarryBreadbap
Paul McVeigh
First post!
LWOS Ricky Sacks made some good points on SSN. Apologies if this have already been posted.
LWOS Ricky Sacks made some good points on SSN. Apologies if this have already been posted.
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