Ange in or out?

[glasgowspur]

You're kind of comparing apples with oranges. The players you mention for other teams are all performing well, the criticism of our players is of a team currently in 15th place in the PL of course there is going to be derision. Its not a case of players not getting support, it's a case of them not performing well.

Johnson, Bissouma, Udogie etc all got support whilst they were performing and tbh some still do.

Ascensio and Tonali both absolutely get into our team and have both played at higher levels than Spurs already. We had signed players of that calibre for Ange maybe he'd be doing a little better tbh.

Do most of us not agree that almost all of our issues are coming from the manager, should we then not try and show some support to those who will still be here, and hopefully playing better, when he is gone?

Both would definitely get in our team imho

 

[glorygloryeze]

Mainly because the perception is that they're not good enough because they are from a lesser league or country or that they're cheap levy buys.

It is a conundrum because like you there are certain players past and present that I think we overrate, in fact some so much that I think it's almost borders on self abuse at times.

We certainly aren't any different from any other fanbase, there's gubers everywhere, but for me we are almost a bi polar fanbase.

Yeah, your description of us as a bi-polar fanbase is fair. You only have to look at the ENIC in/out arguments to see that.
Imo, those arguments get longer and more polarised as long as Levy stays as our figurehead AND we don't win a trophy (or look like we are using every part of our infrastructure to do so)

 

[Bishop]

Mainly because the perception is that they're not good enough because they are from a lesser league or country or that they're cheap levy buys.

It is a conundrum because like you there are certain players past and present that I think we overrate, in fact some so much that I think it's almost borders on self abuse at times.

We certainly aren't any different from any other fanbase, there's gubers everywhere, but for me we are almost a bi polar fanbase.

Your perception is wrong. Ascensio is Real Madrid youth team product, a bit of a superstar 7ish years ago. Signing him would be a coup. Tonali similarly broke though as a youth team superstar and used to be linked to much high profile teams than either us or Saudi Sportswashing Machine. He's only at Saudi Sportswashing Machine because they are ambitious, will pay the wages and he had his gambling issue back home in Italy.

It feels a bit like you're projecting your doubts and maybe lack awareness of those players into a narrative you think relates to the Spurs fan base. Neither player was at all an unknown quantity.

Think back to how Ndombele or Lo Celso were initially received by the fan base and neither one of them were as established or proven as Ascensio and Tonali.

 

[glasgowspur]

Yeah, your description of us as a bi-polar fanbase is fair. You only have to look at the ENIC in/out arguments to see that.
Imo, those arguments get longer and more polarised as long as Levy stays as our figurehead AND we don't win a trophy (or look like we are using every part of our infrastructure to do so)

Purely as a conversation.
Do you see us winning a trophy as a watershed moment?
I know I don't, I'm intrigued to see what happens after it, push on or implode.
If it's a "lesser" trophy it will not be valued (as if we can afford to be fussy) and we would need a good amount of luck for the CL and minor miracle for the PL.
Win either of the big trophies and I can see the expectations go through the roof which is totally unrealistic Imv.

 

[glasgowspur]

Your perception is wrong. Ascensio is Real Madrid youth team product, a bit of a superstar 7ish years ago. Signing him would be a coup. Tonali similarly broke though as a youth team superstar and used to be linked to much high profile teams than either us or Saudi Sportswashing Machine. He's only at Saudi Sportswashing Machine because they are ambitious, will pay the wages and he had his gambling issue back home in Italy.

It feels a bit like you're projecting your doubts and maybe lack awareness of those players into a narrative you think relates to the Spurs fan base. Neither player was at all an unknown quantity.

Think back to how Ndombele or Lo Celso were initially received by the fan base and neither one of them were as established or proven as Ascensio and Tonali.

Lack of awareness yes I'd not argue with that.
It's not my doubts I'm projecting, it's what I see in others, there were plenty of people pointing to ndombele and his past as a potential problem.

They "used to be" is just exactly the type of comments I would expect from a certain section of our fans, just like "never kicked on".
It's almost like they ended up here so can't be much kop.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Nuno was perceived to be beneath us by a fair section of our fan base, just like ange has been (they may have a point with ange).
I feel we have a real identity crisis with where we are, where we want go and how to get there.
There's players out there that we should be looking at (and possibly are) that the fans will just not take to.
Ascensio at villa or tonali at Saudi Sportswashing Machine for instance, I honestly think we as fans would be turning our nose up at these signings, that makes it tough for them to succeed.
We won't attract the superstars so we need not just the best level of player that we can attract but to forge a team from them and we as fans need to play our part in that.

Its far easier to be an underdog and punch up, than entitled and unsatisfied. I think the stadium, and relative successes in the CL, gave fans this platform to aspire to more. But we are still the underdog. We are still fighting to get recognition - or should be.

 

[Craig_J]

To use your analogy, then City were Maclaren using the best components and with the top mechanics and a large research budget capable of really pushing components to the max.

But Williams do not have the same resources or access to the same cutting edge materials processing that Maclaren do so they have to cut their cloth accordingly. If they push their engines to the same extent you will see the plethora of DNFs from them, due to engine failures, brake failure etc.

Trying to play Peps way is commendable but it's just a one of umpteen methods possible, there's nothing particularly worthy about playing that way and I say that as someone who does actually hold that style of football as my favourite.

I mentioned to someone else before that if you want to see what Ange is attempting done well then you need to have a watch of Barcelona under Hansi Flick. Its essentially the same system, high line, high press, intricate passing system etc, but there are some key differences. The FBs don't invert, their high line is super disciplined, better coached and most importantly they have faaaaaaaaaaaaaar better players than we do, specifically in the wide areas, Raphina, Lamal, the striker in Lewa, attacking midfield in Pedri and Olmo etc.

I can’t even watch Forrest, Fulham or Brentford because I am overwhelmed by the superior standard of play. Conditioned to what we have now it frightens me

Let alone Barca

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Do most of us not agree that almost all of our issues are coming from the manager, should we then not try and show some support to those who will still be here, and hopefully playing better, when he is gone?

Both would definitely get in our team imho

It’s more than the manager
We have so many players who lack football intelligence it’s scary
When Kane was here … yes the WC striker… he knew when to fall and when to play.
Even hojberg knew more about managing game state
I don’t think many of our players do
Some of that can fixed with coaching
Some with experience, although I’d argue our most experienced are the ones with the least intelligence
Some can fixed with recruitment
Huge issue for me

 

[harr1984]

Lack of awareness yes I'd not argue with that.
It's not my doubts I'm projecting, it's what I see in others, there were plenty of people pointing to ndombele and his past as a potential problem.

They "used to be" is just exactly the type of comments I would expect from a certain section of our fans, just like "never kicked on".
It's almost like they ended up here so can't be much kop.

You are also right about managers - like you mentioned with Nuno. I remember being linked with Howe when he was at Bournemouth and many on here were turning their nose up at him - there have been other examples I forget too. Just like with trophies many have commented certain ones being beneath us or trying to put down those teams who have won the League cup or a 'lesser' European trophy. Some need a reality check, and people wonder why others label us as fans who 'suffer delusions of grandeur'....

 

[Legohamster]

It’s more than the manager
We have so many players who lack football intelligence it’s scary
When Kane was here … yes the WC striker… he knew when to fall and when to play.
Even hojberg knew more about managing game state
I don’t think many of our players do
Some of that can fixed with coaching
Some with experience, although I’d argue our most experienced are the ones with the least intelligence
Some can fixed with recruitment
Huge issue for me

Christ I didn't think we were at the so bad it's we miss Hojberg levels

 

[Robspur12]

On Nuno, yet again I'll say his situation does not compare to Ange's. The narrative around Nuno was all wrong to begin with. He was someone the club had "settled for," way down the list of preferred candidates who had turned us down. Now, I was pleased when he was appointed as I thought he had done well for Wolves. But the decision was not universally welcomed by the fan base because of the narrative.

So he started with one arm tied behind his back. When things were inconsistent early on the fans turned but I think that was just as much frustration at those who had appointed him. If the club had believed in the appointment they would have ignored the fans and backed their man. They didn't and he was hung out to dry. That is on those who made the appointment! I find arguments to the contrary difficult to understand.

NONE of the above appears to have applied to Ange. Munn had wanted Ange based on what he had seen before in the far east and Australia and courted him while he was still at Celtic. And he has been backed better than any of our recent managers.

 

[glasgowspur]

It’s more than the manager
We have so many players who lack football intelligence it’s scary
When Kane was here … yes the WC striker… he knew when to fall and when to play.
Even hojberg knew more about managing game state
I don’t think many of our players do
Some of that can fixed with coaching
Some with experience, although I’d argue our most experienced are the ones with the least intelligence
Some can fixed with recruitment
Huge issue for me

Watching that game yesterday and all I could think about was why can't we get a player like gomez.
He knows what to do, where to be, who is the danger man and how to snuff him out.
He's not afraid of putting himself about, he won't pull out of a tackle or stop chasing back.
And he can play a bit.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Christ I didn't think we were at the so bad it's we miss Hojberg levels

Not his play but teh way he gets game state

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Watching that game yesterday and all I could think about was why can't we get a player like gomez.
He knows what to do, where to be, who is the danger man and how to snuff him out.
He's not afraid of putting himself about, he won't pull out of a tackle or stop chasing back.
And he can play a bit.

We have liked him for some time
Very good player

 

[glasgowspur]

On Nuno, yet again I'll say his situation does not compare to Ange's. The narrative around Nuno was all wrong to begin with. He was someone the club had "settled for," way down the list of preferred candidates who had turned us down. Now, I was pleased when he was appointed as I thought he had done well for Wolves. But the decision was not universally welcomed by the fan base because of the narrative.

So he started with one arm tied behind his back. When things were inconsistent early on the fans turned but I think that was just as much frustration at those who had appointed him. If the club had believed in the appointment they would have ignored the fans and backed their man. They didn't and he was hung out to dry. That is on those who made the appointment! I find arguments to the contrary difficult to understand.

NONE of the above appears to have applied to Ange. Munn had wanted Ange based on what he had seen before in the far east and Australia and courted him while he was still at Celtic. And he has been backed better than any of our recent managers.

I totally agree with you on nuno, and for all that this is the ange out thread most if not all have us moved on from ange, this is not about ange anymore. He's gone, he maybe in situ but he's now no more than a place holder until the summer.
It's about the club now, ange is no more than a footnote.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Purely as a conversation.
Do you see us winning a trophy as a watershed moment?
I know I don't, I'm intrigued to see what happens after it, push on or implode.
If it's a "lesser" trophy it will not be valued (as if we can afford to be fussy) and we would need a good amount of luck for the CL and minor miracle for the PL.
Win either of the big trophies and I can see the expectations go through the roof which is totally unrealistic Imv.

Potentially yes. I would say more for ENIC and our younger fans rather than the majority of the older fans who have at least seen Spurs win trophies before.
This gap between our last trophy is the longest we've had since the second world war and until this drought we were the only club that had renewed our 'licence' to be called a big club at least once a decade since then. Winning trophies is not for every team (most don;t and can only dream of such) but that is what distinguished us from most of the rest, whilst also acknowledging that we aren't in the same category of Arsenal, Man Utd, Liverpool and (nowadays) Chelsea or Emirates Marketing Project (and even they only recently overtook our total trophy hauls).

Renewing that 'licence' keeps us being able to regenerate the fanbase over generations.
ENIC have often painted themselves as wanting to achieve 'success' in a 'sustainable fashion' so a trophy will keep the howls from their door too.
We NEED a trophy (any trophy) more than any other 'big club' in the country.
How 'watershed' a moment it is for long-term success depends on ENIC (the last 20 odd years tell us it won't be for them and their footballing reputation, but one can only hope)

 

[Gutter Boy]

Watching that game yesterday and all I could think about was why can't we get a player like gomez.
He knows what to do, where to be, who is the danger man and how to snuff him out.
He's not afraid of putting himself about, he won't pull out of a tackle or stop chasing back.
And he can play a bit.

Get him and Bentancur to swap shirts, and then see how each looks. That isn't a criticism of Gomez at all.

 

[billyiddo]

Christ I didn't think we were at the so bad it's we miss Hojberg levels

We'll never be that bad

 

[Grays_1890]

If you take squads into the consideration, there hasn't been many worse in the PL than Ange

This guy is Glenn Roeder taking West Ham down levels

Its worse, he had cancer and Gary Breen

 

[RigorMortis]

It's not rationale, it's facts - he's been resting players with the Europa League in mind, or do you think that was anywhere near our strongest team? These sort of changes always affect teams, not just Spurs/Ange. That's not making excuses for the season at all, but we are where we are and it's pretty obvious what he's doing which was what many posters on here wanted him doing - saving players for Thursday. Which is fine, but you can't expect some sort of coherent performance in the league when doing that. He will be justified if he wins on Thursday, if not then obviously he will get vilified. All of what you mention above would be eradicated if we win the EL. Not saying that will happen, but that's what Ange has to bet on....

we have been awful bar a few odd results since November 2023, it’s just now we are in free fall. He has only got the Europa now because he has ballsed everything else up.

even if we somehow win the Europa, he needs to go.
He is the poundland version of Ten Haag