Ange in or out?

[Robspur12]

None of which explains the likes of this, situations that we see multiple times in every game we play. For a professional PL team to be repeatedly caught in this kind of ‘formation’ over a period of almost two years is inexcusable.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1911410263418347638

You could put up a still on the defensive positioning for every goal we conceded yesterday and end up gasping so much your partner might think you've developed asthma!

 

[harr1984]

That just wouldn't make sense. You can't switch on and off between games. I accept that the manager would want to rest players but if that is the case, at least send out a team that looked even slightly drilled in the system you
want to play. The defensive positioning looked as ridiculous as it has done all season and if it relies on VDV to come to sort out the sorry mess then we are going to be sorely disappointed. To keep blaming the players is also defecting from the manager imho. This team is not the 15th worse team in the league. At some point during this wretched season we have lost to every team below us except Southampton. And they are among the worst 3 teams to have been in the PL.

Plus as I said before, League games matter if the manager wants to embed his system ready for next year. Even if we were to win the Europa League, he cannot have the team this bad next year. So he needs to improve it now.

It's not solely blaming the players, the manager isn't showing enough but a lot of the players aren't good enough. Romero is apparently our best CB, he has always been error prone - this isn't something that has just happened since Ange arrived. Our CMs are average and you can't just put that on Ange because Bergvall already looks levels above in quality and will expect Gray to look the same there next season. Our wingers are not good enough, and our CF is a work horse but Richi is more likely to score goals than him but then he is hardly ever fit enough to be on the pitch Our manager clearly isn't good enough, but neither is the squad....

 

[glorygloryeze]

So, anyone still have any hope that we can get past Eintract Frankfurt?
Saw some of their game yesterday against lowly Heidenheim. They're not amazing but very efficient. If we had a manager who wasn't looking so out of his depth i'd be feeling reasonably confident...but we don't so i honestly fear the very worst...

 

[glorygloryeze]

It's not solely blaming the players, the manager isn't showing enough but a lot of the players aren't good enough. Romero is apparently our best CB, he has always been error prone - this isn't something that has just happened since Ange arrived. Our CMs are average and you can't just put that on Ange because Bergvall already looks levels above in quality and will expect Gray to look the same there next season. Our wingers are not good enough, and our CF is a work horse but Richi is more likely to score goals than him but then he is hardly ever fit enough to be on the pitch Our manager clearly isn't good enough, but neither is the squad....

Yeah, but is the squad so poor as to be hanging around 15th/16th?
The arguments are not about whether we are good enough to challenge for a title/top 4/top 6, it's about whether the downgrading of our squad we've witnessed means we should be so lowly as to be behind the likes of Bournemouth, Brentford and even Everton

 

[kb 1984]

So, anyone still have any hope that we can get past Eintract Frankfurt?
Saw some of their game yesterday against lowly Heidenheim. They're not amazing but very efficient. If we had a manager who wasn't looking so out of his depth i'd be feeling reasonably confident...but we don't so i honestly fear the very worst...

I go into every game thinking we are going to win so yep I definitely have hope. If you don't think you can win what's the point

 

[Robspur12]

It's not solely blaming the players, the manager isn't showing enough but a lot of the players aren't good enough. Romero is apparently our best CB, he has always been error prone - this isn't something that has just happened since Ange arrived. Our CMs are average and you can't just put that on Ange because Bergvall already looks levels above in quality and will expect Gray to look the same there next season. Our wingers are not good enough, and our CF is a work horse but Richi is more likely to score goals than him but then he is hardly ever fit enough to be on the pitch Our manager clearly isn't good enough, but neither is the squad....

Don’t necessarily agree with all of that re Players. Romero yes but Dom Solanke in a team that is properly drilled is a very good player imho. He showed that last year with Bournemouth and has shown it before his latest injury this year. I also think a better manager could get a hell of a lot more out of Biss, Bentancur and Maddison. After all, a combo of Winks and Sissoko helped us to 4th place and the Champions League final.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I go into every game thinking we are going to win so yep I definitely have hope. If you don't think you can win what's the point

Fair enough.

Is this automatic faith, or do you you tactical aspects of how we (or they) play that gives you hope?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I don’t think either of those sides passed the ball particularly well. And they had Bale and Kane.

It’s a similar setup to City - one of the most successful teams of the modern era.

You could give me Usan Bolts running coach but I'm not going to run like him.

It's actually a bit stupid trying to play like them without the financial doping.

 

[Legohamster]

So, anyone still have any hope that we can get past Eintract Frankfurt?
Saw some of their game yesterday against lowly Heidenheim. They're not amazing but very efficient. If we had a manager who wasn't looking so out of his depth i'd be feeling reasonably confident...but we don't so i honestly fear the very worst...

Actually thought we might be ok given how they looked in the second half

But I don't think we will handle any sort of atmosphere before pooing ourselves and giving them a chance within 30 seconds.

 

[kb 1984]

It's automatic faith every year since I was seven I believe we will win the league I am 57 & we haven't won it but we will.
As for Thursday I think we will win because we are the better team if we had taken our chances in the first leg the tie would be over. i haven't seen them play at home but they will have to come at us & I think that will give us opportunities we just have to take them.

 

[glasgowspur]

Those three did, but as a side we didn’t move the ball around particularly well. It is possible to see Anges flaws but recognise the advancement in our passing.


The biggest issue are impatient fans. Remember Nuno? Castigated by fans as clueless, now the same deluded fans hanker after manager like him

Nuno was perceived to be beneath us by a fair section of our fan base, just like ange has been (they may have a point with ange).
I feel we have a real identity crisis with where we are, where we want go and how to get there.
There's players out there that we should be looking at (and possibly are) that the fans will just not take to.
Ascensio at villa or tonali at Saudi Sportswashing Machine for instance, I honestly think we as fans would be turning our nose up at these signings, that makes it tough for them to succeed.
We won't attract the superstars so we need not just the best level of player that we can attract but to forge a team from them and we as fans need to play our part in that.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Nuno was perceived to be beneath us by a fair section of our fan base, just like ange has been (they may have a point with ange).
I feel we have a real identity crisis with where we are, where we want go and how to get there.
There's players out there that we should be looking at (and possibly are) that the fans will just not take to.
Ascensio at villa or tonali at Saudi Sportswashing Machine for instance, I honestly think we as fans would be turning our nose up at these signings, that makes it tough for them to succeed.
We won't attract the superstars so we need not just the best level of player that we can attract but to forge a team from them and we as fans need to play our part in that.

What are you basing the bold bit on?

 

[Gutter Boy]

So, anyone still have any hope that we can get past Eintract Frankfurt?
Saw some of their game yesterday against lowly Heidenheim. They're not amazing but very efficient. If we had a manager who wasn't looking so out of his depth i'd be feeling reasonably confident...but we don't so i honestly fear the very worst...

We are completely broken. We wouldnt be able beat Eintract Saveloy, my mate Andy's 7-a-side team, at the moment

 

[glasgowspur]

What are you basing the bold bit on?

Which bit, that I think they would suit us or that I don't think we would take to them?

If it's whether I think we should be looking at them then it's because for me they fit our profile, they are good players with something to prove and a decent manager would get a lot out of them.

Or if you are questioning why I feel our fans are not the most supportive then there's plenty of evidence of it, from Johnson having to turn off his SM because of the abuse, or the stick Tel has been getting, or Bissouma or Udogie or Bentancur and even on here where it's generally fairly sensible there are some critical of kulu of all people.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

None of which explains the likes of this, situations that we see multiple times in every game we play. For a professional PL team to be repeatedly caught in this kind of ‘formation’ over a period of almost two years is inexcusable.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1911410263418347638

Tbf ...I thought that at the time BUT if you look at the replay (not the freeze frame) Larsen was slowly walking back and way offside after a failed Wolves attack. We attacked, it was only our sudden giving away of the ball that sprung him into life, he dropped 10yds into that space to be onside.

It's not good....but that freeze frame makes it look like he's running forward from a normal position and just not being picked up.

I think the long ball later from their defender was worse...straight down the middle to a unmarked CF...only Djeds pace coming across saved us.

Edit: what I would say is ...almost always the missing one is Romero in the freeze frames. Now, if that's because of tactics or allowed wandering..then that trade off is bad judgement from the manager ...if it's by choice of Romero he needs reigning in or be more savvy.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Which bit, that I think they would suit us or that I don't think we would take to them?

If it's whether I think we should be looking at them then it's because for me they fit our profile, they are good players with something to prove and a decent manager would get a lot out of them.

Or if you are questioning why I feel our fans are not the most supportive then there's plenty of evidence of it, from Johnson having to turn off his SM because of the abuse, or the stick Tel has been getting, or Bissouma or Udogie or Bentancur and even on here where it's generally fairly sensible there are some critical of kulu of all people.

The latter. I don't get why you think our supporters wouldn't have them?
Our supporters mostly have most players if they look like they'd do a job. The abuse (not that i'm condoning it) only tends to start if its felt a player is not putting in the effort or seems to be playing within themselves etc. Some on here claim if anything we overrate our players, so...

I don't know the detailed circumstances of the SM abuse but some are thinker skinned than others: some will block or turn off their SM stuff if people ask "WTF was that performamce" etc, some may turn it off only if they get death threats etc.
Personally i'd not be on SM at all if i was a player, but that's just me.

I don't think our fans are any better or worse than others, eg. just look at the abuse Havertz's WIFE got on SM by some Arsenal 'fans'.

 

[Bishop]

It’s stating the obvious that results are nowhere close to being good enough - no one thinks Ange will be here next season.

I’ll use the analogy of a racing car again - racing teams push the materials and components to the limit trying to build a car that will win the championship. It will break, but eventually they get it just strong enough and the weigh saving helps to win races. Ange is aiming for perfection, trying to build a side that can dominate and win games with minimal defensive cover. It hasn’t worked. But there is some method to it, and City have showed that you can dominate using a similar system.

To use your analogy, then City were Maclaren using the best components and with the top mechanics and a large research budget capable of really pushing components to the max.

But Williams do not have the same resources or access to the same cutting edge materials processing that Maclaren do so they have to cut their cloth accordingly. If they push their engines to the same extent you will see the plethora of DNFs from them, due to engine failures, brake failure etc.

Trying to play Peps way is commendable but it's just a one of umpteen methods possible, there's nothing particularly worthy about playing that way and I say that as someone who does actually hold that style of football as my favourite.

I mentioned to someone else before that if you want to see what Ange is attempting done well then you need to have a watch of Barcelona under Hansi Flick. Its essentially the same system, high line, high press, intricate passing system etc, but there are some key differences. The FBs don't invert, their high line is super disciplined, better coached and most importantly they have faaaaaaaaaaaaaar better players than we do, specifically in the wide areas, Raphina, Lamal, the striker in Lewa, attacking midfield in Pedri and Olmo etc.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Actually thought we might be ok given how they looked in the second half

But I don't think we will handle any sort of atmosphere before pooing ourselves and giving them a chance within 30 seconds.

I'm kinda in that boat....you also have to remember, even when we've been in a better space than we are now, we've rarely played well in an away game in Europe

 

[Bishop]

Which bit, that I think they would suit us or that I don't think we would take to them?

If it's whether I think we should be looking at them then it's because for me they fit our profile, they are good players with something to prove and a decent manager would get a lot out of them.

Or if you are questioning why I feel our fans are not the most supportive then there's plenty of evidence of it, from Johnson having to turn off his SM because of the abuse, or the stick Tel has been getting, or Bissouma or Udogie or Bentancur and even on here where it's generally fairly sensible there are some critical of kulu of all people.

You're kind of comparing apples with oranges. The players you mention for other teams are all performing well, the criticism of our players is of a team currently in 15th place in the PL of course there is going to be derision. Its not a case of players not getting support, it's a case of them not performing well.

Johnson, Bissouma, Udogie etc all got support whilst they were performing and tbh some still do.

Ascensio and Tonali both absolutely get into our team and have both played at higher levels than Spurs already. We had signed players of that calibre for Ange maybe he'd be doing a little better tbh.

 

[glasgowspur]

The latter. I don't get why you think our supporters wouldn't have them?
Our supporters mostly have most players if they look like they'd do a job. The abuse (not that i'm condoning it) only tends to start if its felt a player is not putting in the effort or seems to be playing within themselves etc. Some on here claim if anything we overrate our players, so...

I don't know the detailed circumstances of the SM abuse but some are thinker skinned than others: some will block or turn off their SM stuff if people ask "WTF was that performamce" etc, some may turn it off only if they get death threats etc.
Personally i'd not be on SM at all if i was a player, but that's just me.

I don't think our fans are any better or worse than others, eg. just look at the abuse Havertz's WIFE got on SM by some Arsenal 'fans'.

Mainly because the perception is that they're not good enough because they are from a lesser league or country or that they're cheap levy buys.

It is a conundrum because like you there are certain players past and present that I think we overrate, in fact some so much that I think it's almost borders on self abuse at times.

We certainly aren't any different from any other fanbase, there's gubers everywhere, but for me we are almost a bi polar fanbase.