Ange in or out?

[Bishop]

I don’t think either of those sides passed the ball particularly well. And they had Bale and Kane.

It’s a similar setup to City - one of the most successful teams of the modern era.

You don't think the Modic, Hudd and VDV triangle passed the ball well? Jeez, that was the best football I've ever seen us play. I agree the philosophy wasn't as specific but damn right they passed the ball better. We don't even pass the ball well and haven't really since some point last season.

And I fully understand the system he wants to play it's why if you look back at my posts over the last year or so I've said multiple times it's not going to work because we don't have the players to pull it off. As I said it's not revolutionary, there are dozens if not more teams around Europe who played this way in the last 15 years.

I like the principles but I'm not dogmatic, I don't see the point n sticking to something you aren't actually capable of pulling off and Ange and Spurs are not capable of pulling it off.

 

[Daveeeeeeeed]

It's Bielsa Mk2

- Tore up the championship with Leeds
- Surprised everyone in initial spell in PL
- Got found out and destroyed

His system has hit a ceiling, the specific issue is at this level, if you give up 4 high quality chances in a game, you get punished, at lower levels, teams may not take those chances. At lower level, fitness and being able to outrun teams can be a thing as well, at this level, teams will match you for physical intensity.

If you take a look back in Ange's career it lines up

- His system actually doesn't use player quality, it's all about outrun (our win/loss stats when the opponent runs more than us is crazy) the opposition, it's great when you are trying to make something out of an Australia (no offense, but a side with limited top level players), brick when a simple setup would allow better quality players to win the game for you (e.g. us vs. Leicester, Ipswich, Everton, Wolves, etc.)
- It also fails when the opposition is at a level where mistakes are punished at higher frequency, e.g. Celtic in Europe, Spurs in PL/Europe.

Here's what can't be fixed
- Go look at the Wolves games, how many times did they have 3v3 or 4v3 in game from one or two passes, your opposition should have to earn those chances, not get gifted them because your system opens you up
- How does his press/overloads allow us having better players count? answer it doesn't. Look at Pep/City, Pep has two basic tactics, one is similar to Ange, i.e. create overloads, numerical superiority in an area, but he also creates isolations, plays where he will put his player in a 1:1, and in that scenario he knows (most of the time), he has the better player.
- Game control, pick a time to press, pick a time not to, score a goal, ensure you don't concede in next 5 minutes, start a game, don't get caught out, have your senior players know (experience) they can slow the game down. they can sit back if the opposition has momentum.

Listen, everyone uses hyperbole today, no player in the PL is truly brick (levels above even players 2 leagues down, farless semi-pro or mortals), no manager is truly brick, but he's been found out at this level, and he hasn't been able to adapt (first part happens to everyone) and his results are the worse in Spurs history, and that is inexcusable.

Every excuse anyone could come up with for Ange works if we were sitting in 10th-12th, it simply doesn't fly at 14th-17th.

Top post dude.

 

[djp82]

There we go, but the Europa on Thursday.

I knew there would be some using that excuse. It’s laughable.

This has been on the cards for 18 months.
Raziel articulated it well above. Bielsa is a good comparison.

We have been pretty mediocre since that high line down to 9 men Chelski game.

There’s levels and Ange is not at this one.

 

[Bishop]

It's not rationale, it's facts - he's been resting players with the Europa League in mind, or do you think that was anywhere near our strongest team? These sort of changes always affect teams, not just Spurs/Ange. That's not making excuses for the season at all, but we are where we are and it's pretty obvious what he's doing which was what many posters on here wanted him doing - saving players for Thursday. Which is fine, but you can't expect some sort of coherent performance in the league when doing that. He will be justified if he wins on Thursday, if not then obviously he will get vilified. All of what you mention above would be eradicated if we win the EL. Not saying that will happen, but that's what Ange has to bet on....

We didn't get coverage performances even when he wasn't resting players, so it's going to be a bit difficult for people to believe that's the only reason for the jankiness.

 

[harr1984]

We didn't get coverage performances even when he wasn't resting players, so it's going to be a bit difficult for people to believe that's the only reason for the jankiness.

Oh I agree. All I'm saying is it's pretty pointless judging performances like yesterday with the team sent out, it's obvious how it was going to go.....

 

[Mikey10]

It's not rationale, it's facts - he's been resting players with the Europa League in mind, or do you think that was anywhere near our strongest team? These sort of changes always affect teams, not just Spurs/Ange. That's not making excuses for the season at all, but we are where we are and it's pretty obvious what he's doing which was what many posters on here wanted him doing - saving players for Thursday. Which is fine, but you can't expect some sort of coherent performance in the league when doing that. He will be justified if he wins on Thursday, if not then obviously he will get vilified. All of what you mention above would be eradicated if we win the EL. Not saying that will happen, but that's what Ange has to bet on....

None of which explains the likes of this, situations that we see multiple times in every game we play. For a professional PL team to be repeatedly caught in this kind of ‘formation’ over a period of almost two years is inexcusable.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1911410263418347638

 

[DeanoAustin]

It's not rationale, it's facts - he's been resting players with the Europa League in mind, or do you think that was anywhere near our strongest team? These sort of changes always affect teams, not just Spurs/Ange. That's not making excuses for the season at all, but we are where we are and it's pretty obvious what he's doing which was what many posters on here wanted him doing - saving players for Thursday. Which is fine, but you can't expect some sort of coherent performance in the league when doing that. He will be justified if he wins on Thursday, if not then obviously he will get vilified. All of what you mention above would be eradicated if we win the EL. Not saying that will happen, but that's what Ange has to bet on....

He’s rotated the squad. That’s what clubs in Europe do and that’s what he’s been crying out for through the injury crisis. That’s not an excuse for this number of losses, it’s not acceptable for the performances and it’s not acceptable for players to “reign it in” for league games. Other clubs rotate and their form doesn’t crater to the level that ours has.

There is professional pride at stake here. For Tottenham Hotspur to be 15th in the league, staring down the barrel of maybe finishing 17th is an embarrassment to the club, the manager and the players. You suggested they were “reining it in”. If they are and anyone deems that to be acceptable, we have the wrong people representing our club.

 

[harr1984]

None of which explains the likes of this, situations that we see multiple times in every game we play. For a professional PL team to be repeatedly caught in this kind of ‘formation’ over a period of almost two years is inexcusable.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1911410263418347638

I'd say a lack of cohesion in a defence that never plays together is excusable. However, as you say this is far from the first time and am not excusing performances in general. I'm just saying it was to be expected with the team put out. If/when this sort of disarray happens on Thursday with Porro-Romero-VDV-Udogie lineup then yeah, there is more cause for complaint....

 

[SpurMeUp]

Who had the best players in each position and then a back up of similar quality. They were able to discard Cancelo and Laporte and still win. Now City's recruit has been average as they've pretended to be a normal club their results have fallen off. This is the first time Pep is managing without the best players and he's tactics are being exposed.

The flaw in his (Ange's) set up is that it requires the players to be better than the oppositions. He'll never be in that position at this club and should have adapted to this accordingly.

You might be correct. But if you think there is only one variable, then you’re wide of the mark. There are lots of variables. For example, City don’t try to counter at all cost, and retain possession so they are less exposed to giving up the ball.

 

[harr1984]

He’s rotated the squad. That’s what clubs in Europe do and that’s what he’s been crying out for through the injury crisis. That’s not an excuse for this number of losses, it’s not acceptable for the performances and it’s not acceptable for players to “reign it in” for league games. Other clubs rotate and their form doesn’t crater to the level that ours has.

There is professional pride at stake here. For Tottenham Hotspur to be 15th in the league, staring down the barrel of maybe finishing 17th is an embarrassment to the club, the manager and the players. You suggested they were “reining it in”. If they are and anyone deems that to be acceptable, we have the wrong people representing our club.

Not disagreeing with any of that Deano, but our squad isn't that good that performances aren't going to take a hit when rotating and reigning it in is certainly not acceptable but looked like they were and maybe a natural human reaction to our biggest game of the season whether us as fans like it or not....

 

[SpurMeUp]

You don't think the Modic, Hudd and VDV triangle passed the ball well?

Those three did, but as a side we didn’t move the ball around particularly well. It is possible to see Anges flaws but recognise the advancement in our passing.

Jeez, that was the best football I've ever seen us play. I agree the philosophy wasn't as specific but damn right they passed the ball better. We don't even pass the ball well and haven't really since some point last season.

And I fully understand the system he wants to play it's why if you look back at my posts over the last year or so I've said multiple times it's not going to work because we don't have the players to pull it off. As I said it's not revolutionary, there are dozens if not more teams around Europe who played this way in the last 15 years.

I like the principles but I'm not dogmatic, I don't see the point n sticking to something you aren't actually capable of pulling off and Ange and Spurs are not capable of pulling it off.

The biggest issue are impatient fans. Remember Nuno? Castigated by fans as clueless, now the same deluded fans hanker after manager like him

 

[SpurMeUp]

It's Bielsa Mk2

- Tore up the championship with Leeds
- Surprised everyone in initial spell in PL
- Got found out and destroyed

His system has hit a ceiling, the specific issue is at this level, if you give up 4 high quality chances in a game, you get punished, at lower levels, teams may not take those chances. At lower level, fitness and being able to outrun teams can be a thing as well, at this level, teams will match you for physical intensity.

If you take a look back in Ange's career it lines up

- His system actually doesn't use player quality, it's all about outrun (our win/loss stats when the opponent runs more than us is crazy) the opposition, it's great when you are trying to make something out of an Australia (no offense, but a side with limited top level players), brick when a simple setup would allow better quality players to win the game for you (e.g. us vs. Leicester, Ipswich, Everton, Wolves, etc.)
- It also fails when the opposition is at a level where mistakes are punished at higher frequency, e.g. Celtic in Europe, Spurs in PL/Europe.

Here's what can't be fixed
- Go look at the Wolves games, how many times did they have 3v3 or 4v3 in game from one or two passes, your opposition should have to earn those chances, not get gifted them because your system opens you up
- How does his press/overloads allow us having better players count? answer it doesn't. Look at Pep/City, Pep has two basic tactics, one is similar to Ange, i.e. create overloads, numerical superiority in an area, but he also creates isolations, plays where he will put his player in a 1:1, and in that scenario he knows (most of the time), he has the better player.
- Game control, pick a time to press, pick a time not to, score a goal, ensure you don't concede in next 5 minutes, start a game, don't get caught out, have your senior players know (experience) they can slow the game down. they can sit back if the opposition has momentum.

Listen, everyone uses hyperbole today, no player in the PL is truly brick (levels above even players 2 leagues down, farless semi-pro or mortals), no manager is truly brick, but he's been found out at this level, and he hasn't been able to adapt (first part happens to everyone) and his results are the worse in Spurs history, and that is inexcusable.

Every excuse anyone could come up with for Ange works if we were sitting in 10th-12th, it simply doesn't fly at 14th-17th.

It’s stating the obvious that results are nowhere close to being good enough - no one thinks Ange will be here next season.

I’ll use the analogy of a racing car again - racing teams push the materials and components to the limit trying to build a car that will win the championship. It will break, but eventually they get it just strong enough and the weigh saving helps to win races. Ange is aiming for perfection, trying to build a side that can dominate and win games with minimal defensive cover. It hasn’t worked. But there is some method to it, and City have showed that you can dominate using a similar system.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Not disagreeing with any of that Deano, but our squad isn't that good that performances aren't going to take a hit when rotating and reigning it in is certainly not acceptable but looked like they were and maybe a natural human reaction to our biggest game of the season whether us as fans like it or not....

Fair enough mate. It’s a fair argument. My view is probably being coloured by the way I feel about the club at the moment. It’s a long time since I’ve been this frustrated, angry and disenchanted by it all.

 

[Gutter Boy]

It's Bielsa Mk2

- Tore up the championship with Leeds
- Surprised everyone in initial spell in PL
- Got found out and destroyed

His system has hit a ceiling, the specific issue is at this level, if you give up 4 high quality chances in a game, you get punished, at lower levels, teams may not take those chances. At lower level, fitness and being able to outrun teams can be a thing as well, at this level, teams will match you for physical intensity.

If you take a look back in Ange's career it lines up

- His system actually doesn't use player quality, it's all about outrun (our win/loss stats when the opponent runs more than us is crazy) the opposition, it's great when you are trying to make something out of an Australia (no offense, but a side with limited top level players), brick when a simple setup would allow better quality players to win the game for you (e.g. us vs. Leicester, Ipswich, Everton, Wolves, etc.)
- It also fails when the opposition is at a level where mistakes are punished at higher frequency, e.g. Celtic in Europe, Spurs in PL/Europe.

Here's what can't be fixed
- Go look at the Wolves games, how many times did they have 3v3 or 4v3 in game from one or two passes, your opposition should have to earn those chances, not get gifted them because your system opens you up
- How does his press/overloads allow us having better players count? answer it doesn't. Look at Pep/City, Pep has two basic tactics, one is similar to Ange, i.e. create overloads, numerical superiority in an area, but he also creates isolations, plays where he will put his player in a 1:1, and in that scenario he knows (most of the time), he has the better player.
- Game control, pick a time to press, pick a time not to, score a goal, ensure you don't concede in next 5 minutes, start a game, don't get caught out, have your senior players know (experience) they can slow the game down. they can sit back if the opposition has momentum.

Listen, everyone uses hyperbole today, no player in the PL is truly brick (levels above even players 2 leagues down, farless semi-pro or mortals), no manager is truly brick, but he's been found out at this level, and he hasn't been able to adapt (first part happens to everyone) and his results are the worse in Spurs history, and that is inexcusable.

Every excuse anyone could come up with for Ange works if we were sitting in 10th-12th, it simply doesn't fly at 14th-17th.

Thats a bit of a slight on Bielsa. Bielsa was a genius, who invented a new style of football and was successful in many settings. Leeds had nowhere near the resources to survive, but they had a lot of fight and went for it. Ange is just a simple charlatan

 

[harr1984]

Fair enough mate. It’s a fair argument. My view is probably being coloured by the way I feel about the club at the moment. It’s a long time since I’ve been this frustrated, angry and disenchanted by it all.

No, you and anyone else are right to feel livid - it's been a brick show, and for the time being can only loosely cling onto a faint hope of EL glory. For what it's worth I think something like this has been a long time coming and Ange is the fall guy for it - Not saying Ange would be good enough for us anyway, but our squad is not what some like to think and it never really has been all that but Levy lucked out on having world class Kane and Son along with Poch getting us to punch above our weight for a long time. Now we have none of those things, and chickens are coming home to roost. Levy has done great things in elevating this club, but we need a change in direction at many levels - not just a managerial one....

 

[Bishop]

Those three did, but as a side we didn’t move the ball around particularly well. It is possible to see Anges flaws but recognise the advancement in our passing.

Ok let's I agree it was only those three (I don't) as a whole that team passed and moved the ball faaaar more effectively than this one does. We played the best football in the PL under Harry we are so far removed from that level and have been since realistically the November of last season I don't really get what you're hanging on to. Harrys team did every better passing, defending and importantly winning matches.

The biggest issue are impatient fans. Remember Nuno? Castigated by fans as clueless, now the same deluded fans hanker after manager like him

Ange isn't failing due to impatient fans, he's failing because he's unable to adapt his system to the reality of the squad of players he has built. They can not play the system he wants to effectively, that's not down fans that's his coaching, that's his failure.

The fan base was all in with Ange, he had the allowance and still does to an extent evidenced by your thoughts to build towards something. Evidence of progression and the fan base would have happily kept believing but game after game of the shambles and for the lack of adaptation are the reason he has to go, because he's shown he's is unwilling or unable to be tactically agile. He's at the wrong club if he needs technical superiority over the opposition, we've never had that here and likely never will. Instead our coach needs to maximize not minimize the best qualities of the players he has available and Ange has completely failed in that regard.

 

[Bishop]

No, you and anyone else are right to feel livid - it's been a brick show, and for the time being can only loosely cling onto a faint hope of EL glory. For what it's worth I think something like this has been a long time coming and Ange is the fall guy for it - Not saying Ange would be good enough for us anyway, but our squad is not what some like to think and it never really has been all that but Levy lucked out on having world class Kane and Son along with Poch getting us to punch above our weight for a long time. Now we have none of those things, and chickens are coming home to roost. Levy has done great things in elevating this club, but we need a change in direction at many levels - not just a managerial one....

Welcome to the light side. I embrace you brother.

 

[Robspur12]

Not going to dispute your opinion but the fact is all the eggs are in the Europa basket and have been for some time, the almost fully fit squad (minus one of our few genuinely decent players) is only getting properly played in the Europa. The players rightly or wrongly are reigning it in for PL games (albeit some of them just aren't good enough anyway). A back 4 of Gray, Romero, Davies, Spence was always going to be useless. No excuses Thursday, it will be full pelt with our full strength team....

That just wouldn't make sense. You can't switch on and off between games. I accept that the manager would want to rest players but if that is the case, at least send out a team that looked even slightly drilled in the system you
want to play. The defensive positioning looked as ridiculous as it has done all season and if it relies on VDV to come to sort out the sorry mess then we are going to be sorely disappointed. To keep blaming the players is also defecting from the manager imho. This team is not the 15th worse team in the league. At some point during this wretched season we have lost to every team below us except Southampton. And they are among the worst 3 teams to have been in the PL.

Plus as I said before, League games matter if the manager wants to embed his system ready for next year. Even if we were to win the Europa League, he cannot have the team this bad next year. So he needs to improve it now.

 

[Robspur12]

It's not rationale, it's facts - he's been resting players with the Europa League in mind, or do you think that was anywhere near our strongest team? These sort of changes always affect teams, not just Spurs/Ange. That's not making excuses for the season at all, but we are where we are and it's pretty obvious what he's doing which was what many posters on here wanted him doing - saving players for Thursday. Which is fine, but you can't expect some sort of coherent performance in the league when doing that. He will be justified if he wins on Thursday, if not then obviously he will get vilified. All of what you mention above would be eradicated if we win the EL. Not saying that will happen, but that's what Ange has to bet on....

I agree with pretty much all of that except that he is Bielsa MK 11. Like the Martinez comparison that's wide of the mark IMHO. Bielsa has shown multiple times he is a decent manager. And it's not hyperbole, in this case, to say Ange is out of his depth.

 

[glorygloryeze]

It’s stating the obvious that results are nowhere close to being good enough - no one thinks Ange will be here next season.

I’ll use the analogy of a racing car again - racing teams push the materials and components to the limit trying to build a car that will win the championship. It will break, but eventually they get it just strong enough and the weigh saving helps to win races. Ange is aiming for perfection, trying to build a side that can dominate and win games with minimal defensive cover. It hasn’t worked. But there is some method to it, and City have showed that you can dominate using a similar system.

City dominate with a more rounded system, but it also works when it does because of better coaching