Ange in or out?

[GlennGoddle]

Right, with a much lower standard of player. His Australia team that you referenced played Chile, Netherlands and Spain in the World Cup. An insane draw. Yet we came out of that tournament with a lot of praise, and should really have beaten the Netherlands. He then won the Asian Cup the following year.

In 2021/22 he was knocked out in the Champions League players in his first couple of weeks. In his second season they lost to Real Madrid, RB Leipzig and got 2 draws with Shakhtar Donetsk.

Would you be this staunch if he wasn't Australian? I'm not being a knob I'm genuinely curious

 

[tommysvr]

Would you be this staunch if he wasn't Australian? I'm not being a knob I'm genuinely curious

It’s hard to answer, but I’m far from the most patriotic Australian around — I live in Japan for a reason — so I don’t think so. But maybe I have more patience because I’ve seen what he’s done in the past and that’s only due me being Australian?

FWIW, I absolutely hated him when he was Brisbane and Melbourne manager. I was a Sydney FC season ticket holder when he managed in the A-League and I thought he came across as a complete knobhead, similar to some of the things I see about him now. He also frustrated the hell out of me in 2018 World Cup Qualifying campaign. But he’s met every challenge I’ve seen him take on and it’s hugely impressive.

To do that as an Australian does carry some weight though. Maybe that’s where my nationality comes into it. He’s the first Australian to manage in a major European league. He got there all on merit, nothing else. To see him labelled “clueless” and other derogatory things simultaneously makes me laugh and winds me up.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Ange reminds me a bit of the Boxer Rebellion. Extreme prowess in karate is brilliant. Until you meet guns.

 

[Raziel]

I'm questioning how we spent it. I'm not entirely enthused that us buying a bunch of kids without a mix of experience was the greatest move.
I understand the strategy but again it will be a 2 yr wait at best for it to gel, if Ange stays that long.

It also doesn't help with the youth we have.....loaned out all our youth set-up. Have them play a little. Then go spend X amount on Tel who may or may not stay.

And prior covid, Enic have proven not to go that extra mile for our squad when needed. Someone mentioned if we wanted Nike, we got the the Teemu version. And I believe that still won't change. Just hidden behind getting "youth". And the chances of us finding more prime Ali and Kanes, are lower than us having Skipps, Winks etc.

I think fans spin brick however they want

- VDV was the cheap option, club was too skint to buy Todibo
- Vic was the cheap option, club was too skint to buy Raya
- Spence was a club signing
- Danso was 3rd choice
- Deki, Bentancur, Porro, Danso are all the "brick January" signings Spurs always makes

See how that goes? anybody want to revise any of those calls?

To your point about finding Dele's vs Winks, Gray & Bergvall say hi! Re our youth players in general, Donley, Keeley, Vuskovich are benefitting way more from playing consistently than being here, I expect Moore to go out next season as well.

Ange has repeatedly said, he could have had a couple more experienced players but the trade off would have been no Gray, and that's a call he wasn't comfortable with.

I think the reason Ange still has a job is because the club knew a full squad refresh was needed (yes, a few years late) and the only way to do that was to probably have a few more youth players than ideal in the mix (alongside the Maddison, Solanke, Danso signings).

 

[Lilbaz]

I think fans spin brick however they want

- VDV was the cheap option, club was too skint to buy Todibo
- Vic was the cheap option, club was too skint to buy Raya
- Spence was a club signing
- Danso was 3rd choice
- Deki, Bentancur, Porro, Danso are all the "brick January" signings Spurs always makes

See how that goes? anybody want to revise any of those calls?

To your point about finding Dele's vs Winks, Gray & Bergvall say hi! Re our youth players in general, Donley, Keeley, Vuskovich are benefitting way more from playing consistently than being here, I expect Moore to go out next season as well.

Ange has repeatedly said, he could have had a couple more experienced players but the trade off would have been no Gray, and that's a call he wasn't comfortable with.

I think the reason Ange still has a job is because the club knew a full squad refresh was needed (yes, a few years late) and the only way to do that was to probably have a few more youth players than ideal in the mix (alongside the Maddison, Solanke, Danso signings).

Buying young hungry players. Has been far more beneficial for us over the last 2 decades than spending big on "proven".
Eriksen, bale, walker, rose, carrick, modric...

You need a mix obviously.

 

[Jurgen the German]

He said it once that I know of. He's managed for a very long time. I don't recall it being a problem before but I also don't recall every part of his career.

I also have no seen any evidence of him being at fault, and I think people that throw that accusation around, with literally no knowledge of the situation other than "we've had lots of injuries," are being malicious.

If evidence comes out to support the claim, I'll happily revise my stance.

He did say injuries are normal whilst players get adjusted to his methods. We know for a fact that VDV and Romero started against Chelsea and both couldn’t make it through the game. We also know we have been plagued with injuries two seasons in a row. We will never fully know what causes them and there is always an element of luck, but given the issues he has had with injuries it’s a fair question to ask if his methods are a factor, or at the very least, if they are making things worse.

 

[Gazza]

It’s hard to answer, but I’m far from the most patriotic Australian around — I live in Japan for a reason — so I don’t think so. But maybe I have more patience because I’ve seen what he’s done in the past and that’s only due me being Australian?

FWIW, I absolutely hated him when he was Brisbane and Melbourne manager. I was a Sydney FC season ticket holder when he managed in the A-League and I thought he came across as a complete knobhead, similar to some of the things I see about him now. He also frustrated the hell out of me in 2018 World Cup Qualifying campaign. But he’s met every challenge I’ve seen him take on and it’s hugely impressive.

To do that as an Australian does carry some weight though. Maybe that’s where my nationality comes into it. He’s the first Australian to manage in a major European league. He got there all on merit, nothing else. To see him labelled “clueless” and other derogatory things simultaneously makes me laugh and winds me up.

Fair enough … but Ange at the helm thus far has made me cry and wound me up

 

[Jurgen the German]

I could never understand whether Kane was nurtured to that mentality or whether he was born that way. One thing I would say is that there was nothing talismanic about him for club or country when we really needed a talisman. Other clubs had less than complete teams, but their great players dragged them through. That certainly wasn't the case with Kane, Eriksen, Son etc. Kane wasn't alone in that mentality gap. The ones that may have had it were guys like Walker, Rose and Dele in my opinion. They had that different mentality. You could see it when they played in the toughest games.

With this current setup, we're just in a bad phase right now. I genuinely believe we have more mentality players than we give ourselves credit for. I enjoy having Venom, Porro, Gray, Bergval, Sarr, Solanke etc. These guys have potential to win things because of the way they cross the white line and the attitude they show on the pitch. We need more of that.

I agree about Kane not having that killer instinct. He’s the same for England in big games. He doesn’t score if he’s not in the right place at the right time and he just trots about passively, doesn’t create, doesn’t make life difficult for defenders.

I’d disagree about Alli. I’d say Rose was the only player who seemed to really relish the big occasion.

 

[afsoc4life]

It’s hard to answer, but I’m far from the most patriotic Australian around — I live in Japan for a reason — so I don’t think so. But maybe I have more patience because I’ve seen what he’s done in the past and that’s only due me being Australian?

FWIW, I absolutely hated him when he was Brisbane and Melbourne manager. I was a Sydney FC season ticket holder when he managed in the A-League and I thought he came across as a complete knobhead, similar to some of the things I see about him now. He also frustrated the hell out of me in 2018 World Cup Qualifying campaign. But he’s met every challenge I’ve seen him take on and it’s hugely impressive.

To do that as an Australian does carry some weight though. Maybe that’s where my nationality comes into it. He’s the first Australian to manage in a major European league. He got there all on merit, nothing else. To see him labelled “clueless” and other derogatory things simultaneously makes me laugh and winds me up.

I agree with the last paragraph especially. There are many times I have considered walking away from this forum because of this. I wonder what would happen if the manager was Nigerian and Spurs were not doing well, what language would one see?

 

[Gazza]

I agree with the last paragraph especially. There are many times I have considered walking away from this forum because of this. I wonder what would happen if the manager was Nigerian and Spurs were not doing well, what language would one see?

I don’t get your point. English language/satire/labels can seem at times harsh but I don’t think anyone on this forum doesn’t like Ange because he is an Aussie. They don’t like him for his results, rhetoric and management. Calling him for example a fat Aussie clown shoe is down to immaturity and expression without the racist twist anyone can take.

If we ever got a Nigerian manager he will be lauded if he did good and slated if he didn’t.

My ethnic background ground is South Asian and I find it comical that people can do an Italian accent or a French accent but as soon as someone does an Indian accent it’s deemed as racist. It’s stupid and people sometimes need to see the intent of the words rather than just the words alone.

Think you might be a touch sensitive.

 

[Mikey10]

I don’t get your point. English language/satire/labels can seem at times harsh but I don’t think anyone on this forum doesn’t like Ange because he is an Aussie. They don’t like him for his results, rhetoric and management. Calling him for example a fat Aussie clown shoe is down to immaturity and expression without the racist twist anyone can take.

If we ever got a Nigerian manager he will be lauded if he did good and slated if he didn’t.

My ethnic background ground is South Asian and I find it comical that people can do an Italian accent or a French accent but as soon as someone does an Indian accent it’s deemed as racist. It’s stupid and people sometimes need to see the intent of the words rather than just the words alone.

Think you might be a touch sensitive.

Agreed.

I couldn’t care less if our manager is from Catford, Catalonia or Kathmandu as long as they have the tools to do the job well. The current bloke doesn’t imo.

 

[thfcsteff]

I agree about Kane not having that killer instinct. He’s the same for England in big games. He doesn’t score if he’s not in the right place at the right time and he just trots about passively, doesn’t create, doesn’t make life difficult for defenders.

I’d disagree about Alli. I’d say Rose was the only player who seemed to really relish the big occasion.

Dele's role in that semi-final win at Ajax was immense. He was also the player who was getting closest in the CL Final; I think Poch's biggest mistake that day was not sacrificingTrippier when he brought on Llorente. He should've left Dele on. The Llorente/Dele/Moura trio were in place and had the 'click'...

 

[Raziel]

I don’t get your point. English language/satire/labels can seem at times harsh but I don’t think anyone on this forum doesn’t like Ange because he is an Aussie. They don’t like him for his results, rhetoric and management. Calling him for example a fat Aussie clown shoe is down to immaturity and expression without the racist twist anyone can take.

If we ever got a Nigerian manager he will be lauded if he did good and slated if he didn’t.

My ethnic background ground is South Asian and I find it comical that people can do an Italian accent or a French accent but as soon as someone does an Indian accent it’s deemed as racist. It’s stupid and people sometimes need to see the intent of the words rather than just the words alone.

Think you might be a touch sensitive.

I disagree, it's really easy to pretend that they aren't double standards, I'll give you two examples

- Look at how the media treats Rashford vs. Grealish, very similar profiles, hmmm.. what's different?
- Look at the abuse English black players get when they miss in a penalty shootout

- Ange gets the hick from nowhere, brick league stuff all the time, you would really have to be naïve to believe if he was from an African country or any 3rd world country the racist brick wouldn't be out in full force

Being aware that people by nature can be racists, bigots, general assholes and we shouldn't tolerate it, isn't being too sensitive.

Similarly if you believe some of the greedy, money hording, cheap narrative around Levy has nothing at all to do with him being Jewish .. I might have a bridge to sell you.

 

[afsoc4life]

I don’t get your point. English language/satire/labels can seem at times harsh but I don’t think anyone on this forum doesn’t like Ange because he is an Aussie. They don’t like him for his results, rhetoric and management. Calling him for example a fat Aussie clown shoe is down to immaturity and expression without the racist twist anyone can take.

If we ever got a Nigerian manager he will be lauded if he did good and slated if he didn’t.

My ethnic background ground is South Asian and I find it comical that people can do an Italian accent or a French accent but as soon as someone does an Indian accent it’s deemed as racist. It’s stupid and people sometimes need to see the intent of the words rather than just the words alone.

Think you might be a touch sensitive.

Refering to his nationality is unnecessary. If you call that sensitive, so be it. Some of the words used towards Ange on this forum has been disgusting.

 

[metalgear]

Angeball is inefficient and causes injuries

 

[Lilbaz]

I disagree, it's really easy to pretend that they aren't double standards, I'll give you two examples

- Look at how the media treats Rashford vs. Grealish, very similar profiles, hmmm.. what's different?
- Look at the abuse English black players get when they miss in a penalty shootout

- Ange gets the hick from nowhere, brick league stuff all the time, you would really have to be naïve to believe if he was from an African country or any 3rd world country the racist brick wouldn't be out in full force

Being aware that people by nature can be racists, bigots, general assholes and we shouldn't tolerate it, isn't being too sensitive.

Similarly if you believe some of the greedy, money hording, cheap narrative around Levy has nothing at all to do with him being Jewish .. I might have a bridge to sell you.

Erm they actually did a search on twitter one year to see which players got the most abuse online. Ronaldo was top and kane was second. Far more than rashford, saka or sterling. But all we heard in the media was how much abuse black players got online.

Edit - my bad. Mcguire and ronaldo. Rashford came in 3rd.

 

[Raziel]

Erm they actually did a search on twitter one year to see which players got the most abuse online. Ronaldo was top and kane was second. Far more than rashford, saka or sterling. But all we heard in the media was how much abuse black players got online.

Edit - my bad. Mcguire and ronaldo. Rashford came in 3rd.

Like I said, go back and watch the England penalty misses and the social media reaction to the different players

Again, idiots will idiot, but to think there is no difference in the abuse a Kane gets (useless/mouth breather/etc.) vs. what is said to a Rashford/Saka is again not the same

 

[Lilbaz]

Like I said, go back and watch the England penalty misses and the social media reaction to the different players

Again, idiots will idiot, but to think there is no difference in the abuse a Kane gets (useless/mouth breather/etc.) vs. what is said to a Rashford/Saka is again not the same

Abuse is abuse.

That study was done because of the penalty misses. It showed that the vast majority of abuse was not racist and had more to do with what club the player played for than the colour of their skin.

But people only think of players with black skin as victims. White people are somehow immune to abuse.

That is double standards and racist.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

That's all it is at this point. Not quite blind faith but not far off it. "He's done it before, he always wins in his second year." Like investing, past performance is not a guide to future performance. He's at a level now that is light years ahead of anything he's coached before and he's regularly being exposed and has been for over 12 months. I can't think of anyone who has gone from this sort of position to winning big trophies at this level. Not the way he's being exposed tactically.

But he'll continue with the rhetoric. He's done it from early on when he talked down the quality of the league and by repeatedly saying "I know that this works, it just takes time" as if he has some sort of secret key to success. He doesn't. The emperor has no clothes.

However, when he goes, he'll claim he had to manage in impossible circumstances and would have won with time. His supporters will say the same. I'll make a prediction now though - he won't get another opportunity at a club as high profile as Tottenham. And that, in itself, tells a story.

Bit bolded is key for me. You think back to most managers that have done well for us, there tends to be an immediate solid base built and it gets built on from there. Jol, Redknapp, Poch all came in after managers that struggled and the first thing they did was make us tough to beat. There were immediate foundations put in place and consistent avoidance of defeat was there from v. early on in their reigns. They then built on that and particularly Redknapp and Poch qualified us for the champions league in their 2nd seasons and there followed with both managers consistently high league finishes. Both of them had better quality squads to work with than Jol overall, although Redknapp has always been really good in the transfer market and he really built on the foundations of Modric, King, Bale, Lennon etc.and saw that Rose was an average winger that could be a superb full back.

With Postecoglu he's never put those structural foundations in place. Nor does he seem interested in doing so. The need to earn the right to play and the need to just sit deep for a few minutes when it's not going to plan and try and get a foothold in a game you're being dominated in, just don't seem to even be a part of his thinking. And at this level those things are so vital. The cup game against Villa: you're away against a really good side, cup tie, up for it crowd in a noisy old skool stadium....Just get yourselves settled, stay tight, quieten their crowd and build into the game....but oh no it's "let's just bomb everyone forward from minute one, lose the ball, leave our entire right flank open and.....oh guess what, we've just f**ked the tie and we've barely left the dressing room " I'm sorry, but its absolutely amateur hour. Inexcusable.

 

[thfcsteff]

Bit bolded is key for me. You think back to most managers that have done well for us, there tends to be an immediate solid base built and it gets built on from there. Jol, Redknapp, Poch all came in after managers that struggled and the first thing they did was make us tough to beat. There were immediate foundations put in place and consistent avoidance of defeat was there from v. early on in their reigns. They then built on that and particularly Redknapp and Poch qualified us for the champions league in their 2nd seasons and there followed with both managers consistently high league finishes. Both of them had better quality squads to work with than Jol overall, although Redknapp has always been really good in the transfer market and he really built on the foundations of Modric, King, Bale, Lennon etc.and saw that Rose was an average winger that could be a superb full back.

With Postecoglu he's never put those structural foundations in place. Nor does he seem interested in doing so. The need to earn the right to play and the need to just sit deep for a few minutes when it's not going to plan and try and get a foothold in a game you're being dominated in, just don't seem to even be a part of his thinking. And at this level those things are so vital. The cup game against Villa: you're away against a really good side, cup tie, up for it crowd in a noisy old skool stadium....Just get yourselves settled, stay tight, quieten their crowd and build into the game....but oh no it's "let's just bomb everyone forward from minute one, lose the ball, leave our entire right flank open and.....oh guess what, we've just f**ked the tie and we've barely left the dressing room " I'm sorry, but its absolutely amateur hour. Inexcusable.

Has he now.
I think the truth is, Harry was always good at identifying what he needed immediately in the short-term. If that is the metric, then OK. But I would not call the likes of Saha and Pienaar especially astute buys, just expensive but 'camera-ready' squaddies.

Postecoglu started his first season with Vicario, Romero/VdV and Bissouma as his spine. He was shorted a CF at that time. He most certainly did have structure, and a foundation/principle. You just don't like it. Or his style. Or him. Whether his style literally has legs is certainly an important discussion. I personally think he has lost too much in terms of energy and momentum via the disruptions to this season to last; I think he's gone. But to question his 'interest' in fundamental principles is just silliness.

I get really really tired of this 'amateur hour' nonsense. When will you and others accept that you do not have the career/experience he has by being an 'amateur'? You don't like his style/way we set-up? Wonderful, have at it. It's the extra jabs which (for me) weaken that opinion every time they get thrown. Frankly, it smacks of ignorance.